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The Question Man
Hoi Chummers, I require some assistance, both as player and GM. Several Edges & Flaws were lost in the revised edition and I thought others were overly expensive for there bonuses or penalties.

Ambidextrous 2, 4, 6, 8 - the costs far out weigh the bonuses

Bonus Attribute Points - costs 2 points and not only gives you +1 point to you attribute, but raises your racial limit.

Extra Attribute Points - cost +1/+1, not munchie , but not canon either.

Astral Sight - vanished from the radar, but if a PC has Magic Priority of C or D I will let the PC have it. If they are already an Adepts are excempt from these requirements.

What House Rules/New Edges & Flaws have you used or created?

Cheers

QM
Chance359
Refuse to fall (1 point): The character is able to trade two boxes of overflow for one complex action with no penalty.
mfb
you're a bit off. Bonus Attribute Point allows you to exceed the racial starting limit; it doesn't raise the racial limit. now, Exceptional Attribute raises your racial limit, but it doesn't actually raise the stat itself.

i'm not sure where you're getting 'extra attribute points' from. it's pretty munchie, though--for 10 build points, you get 10 attribute points; normally, 10 attribute points cost 20 build points.

giving adepts astral perception for free is a bit unbalancing. that's a major advantage, there, and adepts should have to pay to get it.

as far as ambidexterity, you'll want to show some examples of how little worth it is. as it stands, the costs and benefits seem pretty balanced to me.
blakkie
QUOTE (mfb @ Oct 7 2004, 05:22 PM)
giving adepts astral perception for free is a bit unbalancing. that's a major advantage, there, and adepts should have to pay to get it.

I think he ment that they are exempt from having to take Magic Priority C or D, likely because they had to already take something higher than that to be an Adept. So they are always free to purchase the Edge.

EDIT: If that isn't what he ment, but instead is suggesting giving all Adepts Astral Sight free then i'm calling dibs on being the first to smack him with a dikoted tuna.
Shockwave_IIc
QUOTE (mfb)
as far as ambidexterity, you'll want to show some examples of how little worth it is. as it stands, the costs and benefits seem pretty balanced to me.

Ditto that, Ambidex 3 (6) is well worth it.
Arethusa
QUOTE (Shockwave_IIc)
QUOTE (mfb @ Oct 7 2004, 05:22 PM)
as far as ambidexterity, you'll want to show some examples of how little worth it is. as it stands, the costs and benefits seem pretty balanced to me.

Ditto that, Ambidex 3 (6) is well worth it.

Ambidexterity's 2, 4, and 8 point version are absurdly overpriced. The 6 point version isn't worth 6 pointes either, unless you're an adept or a hand to hand sam. The prices really should be cut in half for everyone but the above.
Eyeless Blond
QUOTE (mfb)
as far as ambidexterity, you'll want to show some examples of how little worth it is. as it stands, the costs and benefits seem pretty balanced to me.

Indeed I'd say it's almost too cheap. It costs 6 BP to get Off-hand Pistols 6, but with the Edge it costs only two more to get off-hand skills equal to every main-hand weapon skill you have automatically.

As for the rest of that, I agree with mfb. Lowering the price of the attribute edges would give the dubious quality that the edge costs fewer points than it costs to normally raise the attribute. If the edges were lowered to 1 point it would cost two BPs to raist Int from 5 to 6, but only one to raise it from 6 to 7? Um, why?
mfb
well, it's true that almost nobody gets the 2 and 4 point version of Ambidex. you could have the prices of those and not really affect the game too much--i wouldn't, but it can be done. the 8-pt version is purchased more often than those, but less often than the 6-pt version. however, i think the 8-pt version should remain just as it is; for a two gun kid, it's a really nice edge.
Cain
QUOTE
It costs 6 BP to get Off-hand Pistols 6, but with the Edge it costs only two more to get off-hand skills equal to every main-hand weapon skill you have automatically.

Except there is no off-hand Pistols skill. Offhand skills are only for melee weapons.
Shockwave_IIc
QUOTE (Arethusa)
The 6 point version isn't worth 6 pointes either, unless you're an adept or a hand to hand sam. The prices really should be cut in half for everyone but the above.

And unless you was one, why would want to take it?

It's like quite a few other Edges, Example the so called "face" Edges, only really worth it when used to make max use of them, usefull otherwise yes. Same holds true for Ambidex 6.

Which to be is the only one i would take, but maybe thats just me.
Arethusa
This isn't a videogame. I don't play to win. It can be as simple as wanting a character with akimbo melee ability but who focuses on akimbo pistols purely as a stylistic effect or as complex as ambidexterity being a character note and not wanting anything to do with combat.

And you're not the only one who would only take the 6 point version; all the others are ridiculously overpriced, and 6, if you whore it correctly, is far too cheap to pass up.
Fygg Nuuton
but i want to win the shadowrun!

ambidexterity could cost

1, 3, 5, 8 for instance. then the first level looks nice for peopel who CAN do it but dont etc
Shockwave_IIc
QUOTE (Arethusa)
This isn't a videogame.  I don't play to win.  It can be as simple as wanting a character with akimbo melee ability but who focuses on akimbo pistols purely as a stylistic effect or as complex as ambidexterity being a character note and not wanting anything to do with combat.

And you're not the only one who would only take the 6 point version; all the others are ridiculously overpriced, and 6, if you whore it correctly, is far too cheap to pass up.

I Never said you played to win and your right this isn't a video game either. It's just that some edges aren't worth taking unless you have the appropriate charcter to make use them.

How many Phys Stat 1 Otaku do you see having Ambidex 6? None. Why? because for them it is a waste of 6 pts.

Just like you don't see any Troll Sam's with Essence .01 taking Good looking, Good Rep and Friendly face. Because again for that chacter there not worth it.

So your right, Hth Sam's/ Adept will be the only ones to take Abidex 6, But seeing as they are likely to be the only ones wanting it, it becomes worth it.



DrJest
So, for my own curiosty's sake - why NOT take Ambi-8 and two pistols? In my research for catching up with the new rules, I sat down with a rather nice 3rd Ed character generator and created a number of different characters, including a "Gun Kata" Physad (+2 dice each on Martial Arts and Pistols, +2d6 Init, a handful of improved sense, then add in Ambi-8 from Edges and pack a pair of Ares Vipers [modded out with IGV-II and laser sights] because I like them and think they're a vastly under-rated weapon). And yet the trend on the board here seems to be that only melee experts will bother to take Ambi-8. Is there some niggling rule i missed?
Shockwave_IIc
Na Pistol Adepts/ Gun bunnys make good use of Ambidex 8, but with canon ruling being that no sighting enchancments (las/ Smart etc.) can used with Dual firearms, most people don't bother.

Oh side note: Ares Viper isn't under rated it's Overpowered
Fortune
Nope. Nothing wrong with that character. smile.gif
DrJest
Lol, I didn't know about the sighting issue, but actually the math works out better with two lots of Pistols vs a target of 4 as opposed to one lot vs a target of 3 smile.gif Hey, if he's a physical magician (and yes, I do play them from time to time) would a locked (er... that's a sustaining focus now I think) or quickened Enhance Aim spell do the trick? Man, that would be insane...



QUOTE
Oh side note: Ares Viper isn't under rated it's Overpowered


You know it, I know it, but try and convince any of those bang-per-bullet samurai types of it wink.gif Sigh! I always get laughed at for my choice of sidearm.

Oh, now THAT'S a really ugly idea... sorry... just got to wondering if you could figure a way to Dikote flechettes... yech...
Shockwave_IIc
yup Quicken enhanced aim would work (tattoed would be better still) assuming the spell "spotted" the intended Victim.
DrJest
Tattooed? (I'm still in 2nd Ed mostly here, forgive me smile.gif )
Fortune
Tattooing is a Metamagic akin to Quickening, only it can be harder to dispel.
Shockwave_IIc
It's Cool.

Erm an Quickening technique in MitS that makes it twice as difficult to dispel. can take up a large area of skin though for high force stuff.
Shockwave_IIc
Is it a Metamagic? though it was just a techinque.
Fortune
Nope, it's definitely a seperate Metamagic.
DrJest
Thanks guys. Man, so much has changed since 2nd ed... You know, I tried converting one of my old characters across, its amazing how much less he can do now. Separate firearms skills, limited metamagic (hell, some of those names in the character generator I don't even recognise) - and for cryin' out loud, where's the Magical Theory skill gone to? How do you design spells these days?

Sorry, old guy rant, I do apologise smile.gif
toturi
Spell Design Knowledge skill, I think.
Arethusa
QUOTE (DrJest @ Oct 8 2004, 06:26 AM)
So, for my own curiosty's sake - why NOT take Ambi-8 and two pistols? In my research for catching up with the new rules, I sat down with a rather nice 3rd Ed character generator and created a number of different characters, including a "Gun Kata" Physad (+2 dice each on Martial Arts and Pistols, +2d6 Init, a handful of improved sense, then add in Ambi-8 from Edges and pack a pair of Ares Vipers [modded out with IGV-II and laser sights] because I like them and think they're a vastly under-rated weapon). And yet the trend on the board here seems to be that only melee experts will bother to take Ambi-8. Is there some niggling rule i missed?

It's simple, really: two pistols really aren't that great, and they sure as hell doesn't compare to, say, an assault rifle with 10 points of recoil comp. The recoil rules, even for an 8 point ambidextrous character are less than forgiving. In the end, akimbo's nice, but it isn't really worth 6 build points (or 30 karma in BeCKS) for the gimped version, and in no way is it worth 8 build points (or 40 karma in BeCKS).
Cochise
QUOTE (Arethusa @ Oct 8 2004, 02:48 PM)
It's simple, really: two pistols really aren't that great, and they sure as hell doesn't compare to, say, an assault rifle with 10 points of recoil comp.  The recoil rules, even for an 8 point ambidextrous character are less than forgiving.  In the end, akimbo's nice, but it isn't really worth 6 build points (or 30 karma in BeCKS) for the gimped version, and in no way is it worth 8 build points (or 40 karma in BeCKS).

Obviously you haven't meet Mr. Akimbo (Ambidex 8 ) Adept who uses SMGs with a hell of recoil comp who doesn't have to care about recoil of either weapon as well

Sidenote: Ever noticed that recoil in SR3 counts per same combat phase not combat round?
Kagetenshi
Given how little it takes to compensate a single point of recoil, a brace of pistols is extremely effective. Take two induction pads and a smartlink. When you need to be accurate, use one pistol. When you need volume of fire, use them both. This works even better with SMGs, where you have the opportunity to lay down suppressive fire with both when the going gets tough.

I'd never take Ambidex 6 with a ranged character. 8 is so much more worth it.

~J
DrJest
Me, I was thinking the Ares Viper in burst-fire mode with IGV-II to negate one burst's worth of recoil from each weapon. But paired Savalette Guardians (especially if you can afford APDS ammo) would also work a treat in the heavy pistol line, and that's even before you get to SMG's.
Fortune
You do realise that the Guardian fires a burst as a Complex Action, rather than the Viper's Simple Action burst-fire mode, don't you?
Ajax
My first real character, about five years ago, took ambudex 8. Although the flaws were pretty painful, i always thought it was worth it. Then again i did end up running around with two Ruger Thunderbolts loaded with EX Explosive rounds. (shock pads and gas vent IV.) I would have used APDS ammo, but the GM Forbid it, something about a low power campaign.

The Thunderbolts, though not particularly stealthy, were bloody effective. Ah. Enhanced Reflexes III. That character would pretty much always go first, and four people would die. Made six man strike teams a little less scary. With 12 dice and a base damage of 12S he was lethal. Of course he couldn't find a pizza on the black market if he needed to.






- Ajax
"You see, with two guns, I can shoot twice as many people."
Kagetenshi
Keep the +2 modifier per target for multiple targets in mind.

~J
DrJest
Heh, you mean that wasn't a misprint? We always assumed it was, since it seemed to be unique.
Fortune
Nope, no misprint. That is the way it was created.
Ajax
he operated on combat pool and fast karms mostly, as a straight adept, he didn't have a smartlink or any top mounted toys. Basically he missed a lot, but when he did hit something, oh man. That and he ran out of bullets really fast. You have to want to kill someone when every time you shoot them it cost you 45 nuyen per shot. Though still not as bad as sniping with a berret, 100 nuyen per shot.









Ajax
"You see, with two guns, I can shoot twice as many people."
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