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Wounded Ronin
Earlier today I was reading through the gee-whiz threads on custom weapons and it got me thinking. In Shadowrun, there's always going to be another bigger, more fancier, and expensive gun...and if all else fails, make yourself the custom assault rifle with 7 points of recoil comp.

But, like, what if I have a character who just wants to use something that is simple and practical? For example, a simple sound suppressed semi automatic carbine for a stealthy run? I realized that there is no such simple carbine in either SR3 or the Canon Companion.

"Well, just take one of the SMGs!", you say. But the thing is that the single shot damage codes for the SMGs are generally very nerfed compared to the single shot damage codes from the heavy pistols, even though you'd think that you would be able to get an SMG in the same caliber as a typical "heavy pistol"; for example, it's easy to find combat handguns in .45 ACP as well as SMGs in .45 ACP, but SMGs invariably are weaker than heavy pistols in single shot mode.

So this brings me to the issue of what should be addressed in the creation of our theoretical simple semi-automatic carbine. Since it dosen't have burst fire or full auto modes, game balance would not be severely disrupted by giving it the same damage code for single shots as a heavy pistol or a sport rifle. On the other hand, though, because it is a carbine, it can use SMG ranges instead of pistol ranges.


Here are my ideas:

Simple Carbine in .45 ACP
Damage Code 9M
SMG ranges
SA mode only
10 round box magazine
Integral barrel mounted silencer


Simple Carbine in 5.56
Damage Code 7S
SMG ranges
SA mode only
5 round box magazine
Integral barrel mounted silencer (can 5.56 actually be suppressed well in real life? If not, just scracth the silencer for believability.)
Austere Emancipator
The problem is, using the canon firearm design system, you can't have one weapon's ranges and another's Damage Code.

So your best bets are either a sound suppressed shotgun (or "Silenced", can't remember how that goes) with only slug ammunition, which can have a decent Concealability and a max range of 110 meters with a 8S-10S Damage Code, or the Sporting Rifle approach with a 675 meter range and a 7S-9S Damage Code.

If you don't mind the additional range, here's one example:
Sport Rifle, 7S, SA, Conc 2, 4.5kg, 5m, 2.5FCU, 125DPV
Ammo Loading (Clip) +10 DP, -1 Conc
Barrel Reduction, +8 DP, -0.5 FCU, -0.25kg, +2 Conc
Bullpup Config, +25 DP, -0.5 FCU, +2 Conc
Weight Decrease 6, +30 DP, -1.5kg

Internal Smartlink-2, +180 DP, 0.25kg, -0.5 FCU
Extended Clip 15, +30 DP
Range Finder (Top), +30 DP, 0.1kg, -0.25 FCU
Silencer, +100 DP, 0.2kg, -0.25 FCU

Generic Arms Mk I Carbine
7S, SA, 20c, Conc 5 (add the Silencer afterwards for a more reasonable 3 or 4), Weight 3.3kg, RC 1, -10% Sporting Rifle ranges, 2,690 nuyen.gif

Call it similar to .300 Whisper and it's a rather sensible weapon.
FlakJacket
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)
Integral barrel mounted silencer (can 5.56 actually be suppressed well in real life?  If not, just scracth the silencer for believability.)

A quick search seems to turn up a fair number of suppressed 5.56 weapons. Most roads seem to lead back to the SSK Industries Whisper bullet range. You'll get a better response when some of the local heavy hitters turn up. Raygun's site has carbines under the Assault Rifles section and different ranges he uses with his system.
Austere Emancipator
The 9M -> 8L drop in Damage Code and the 50/150/350/550 -> 50/75/150/300 drop in range that Raygun uses for subsonic assault rifle ammunition is quite telling. Partial suppression is, of course, rather useful, but probably not in the kind of situation you're interested in. If you used a barrel/suppressor which bleeds out the gases, making standard loads subsonic, you'd basically have a glorified .22.
Zenmaxer
This may be an extremely dumb idea, but you can also use a somewhat lower velocity with an somewhat higher caliber and get the same overall force of impact..

Can you suppress a 50 cal sa rifle?
Austere Emancipator
That's basically what you're doing when going from 5.56x45mm NATO to .300 Whisper. From 5.56mm 62gr @ 3050 fps -> 7.62mm 240gr @ 1050fps.

You can partially suppress (ie tack a functioning sound suppressor on to) just about any conventional small arm, with the proper barrel modifications. A .50 BMG rifle isn't the best option here, because the cartridge is massive. You can see a picture of a .500 Whisper here on Raygun's site. Compare the bullet-to-case relation for the .500 Whisper and that of the .50 BMG.
Zenmaxer
:: grins :: that is one gigantic cart... As I gather, the whole point of a stealthy simple carbine is that you don't have to use it much, so I guess that a huge cartridge wouldn't really be an issue, as long as you managed to snag some serious punch.
Austere Emancipator
Compared to the .500 Whisper, the .50 BMG has no ballistic advantages whatsoever when both are loaded to subsonic velocities. You're launching the exact same bullet at the exact same velocity. The .50 BMG does fit into a lot of existing rifles, but these rifles tend to be fucking huge, which largely defeats the purpose of this "simple carbine". Semi-automatic .50 BMG rifles might well not cycle with subsonic ammunition, I would imagine.
Raygun
QUOTE (Zenmaxer)
This may be an extremely dumb idea, but you can also use a somewhat lower velocity with an somewhat higher caliber and get the same overall force of impact..

Can you suppress a 50 cal sa rifle?

As long as you're not worried about having to defeat body armor, that would work just fine. A suppressed subsonic .50 Beowulf (say 440 grains @ 1050 fps = 1077 fpe) would not be much fun for the opposition to deal with, and it would work pretty darn well in an AR15 or Ruger Mini-14 action.

I think the .500/.510 Whisper would be a bit much for the application we're talking about.
Zenmaxer
what would be the optimal bullet for an even mix of penetration and actual damage?
Austere Emancipator
And if you are worried about body armor, would a Mk 211 Mod 0 bullet loaded onto a .500 Whisper work properly?

[Edit]Yeah, the .500 probably is a bit much. That's why I originally mentioned the .300.

If you're using subsonic ammunition, you have to go to great lengths to get reasonable penetration. The 9x39mm AP ammunition of the VSS Vintorez isn't exactly guaranteed to penetrate rifle protection plates, but it is guaranteed to produce wound cavities similar to 9x19mm FMJs -- and we all know how much those are loved by the "stopping power" crowd.[/Edit]
mfb
a question for the ages, that. edit: zenmaxer's, i mean.
toturi
Penetration - retain kinetic energy while moving through the body armour

Damage - lose kinetic energy while moving through body

Hmmm...
mfb
omg u haf 2 use teh blended metall!!1!1!!!!!
Herald of Verjigorm
Go with the 1ft cannonball, it'll keep going (possibly through other targets) and tends to take a large chunk of each target with it.
mfb
point.

yeah, basically, the easiest answer to zenmax's question is "bigger and faster". bigger = more flesh damage; faster = more penetration.
Raygun
QUOTE (Zenmaxer)
what would be the optimal bullet for an even mix of penetration and actual damage?

Well, when you get up into .50 caliber, even at velocities right under transonic, you're pretty much covered as far as wound ballistics go. Big bullets make big holes, heavy bullets dig deep, and big, deep holes tend to bleed a lot. Trajectory with a subsonic .50 Beowulf is going to be about as flat as JLo's ass, but as long as you keep it under 200 meters it should work fine.

As far as penetrating armor goes, it depends on whether you want to stick with something that would be somewhat readily available, or make custom bullets. An AP bullet could be made for the .50 Beowulf, (in fact, Leitner-Wise makes, or used to make, an AP load for the 15.499 round, which is very similar to the .50 Beowulf) but it's probably not going to defeat NIJ IV (armor designed to defeat full-power military rifle cartridges and some AP rifle cartridges).

So in SR terms, I'd say something like that would go, oh, 10M with a x0.75 armor modifier.

What would be optimal would depend on what you're up against. Honestly, because there aren't many AP bullets out there in .50 that aren't designed for the BMG cartridge (660+ grains), I'd probably go with Aus's suggestion and use a .300 Whisper. You can use very quiet subsonic rounds while sneaking around, then switch to a supersonic AP load (using M993 bullets) that would come awfully close to 7.62x39mm ballistics if the shit hits the fan.

In that case, I'd say 8M for the subsonic load, and 9M with a x0.5 AP modifier for the supersonic load.

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
And if you are worried about body armor, would a Mk 211 Mod 0 bullet loaded onto a .500 Whisper work properly?

Well, the first thing it would do is defeat the whole "sneaky" thing (as big-ass explosive bullets tend to make a racket when they smack into something), but honestly, I don't know how well it would work against body armor, nor do I know how well it would work at subsonic velocities. It's unlikely to make things worse for the shooter's cause, let's put it that way.
Rock-Steady
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
The problem is, using the canon firearm design system, you can't have one weapon's ranges and another's Damage Code.

How do you explain the Hammerli then? *g*
mfb
none of the firearms actually used the FCG.
Austere Emancipator
Since some earlier HEI-type rounds had a tendency to go off when dropped from high enough or when handled very roughly, I'd expect the Mk 211 would go off even at velocities as low as ~800fps, at least as long as it hits something solid. I guess it might not if it hits an unarmored human.

A 215gr 7.62mm tungsten penetrator at 1000fps should penetrate soft body armor well enough. Whether it stands a chance against level III depends heavily on how well if at all the acceleration by the explosion would work.
Critias
QUOTE (mfb)
omg u haf 2 use teh blended metall!!1!1!!!!!

No, no. Not just blended, but folded and layered, a hojillion and one times. Let every round be a work of art, hand crafted by little old Japanese guys using ancient techniques and time-honored traditions. Folded and refolded, covered in clay, reverently etched... a katana with every trigger pull!

Let gods tremble!
Req
QUOTE (Raygun)
Trajectory with a subsonic .50 Beowulf is going to be about as flat as JLo's ass, but as long as you keep it under 200 meters it should work fine.

That's a fine, fine quote right there, Raygun.
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