Many references are made to trolls being built like gorillas, commonly ceilings are generally to low for a fully upright canon height troll. Common artwork for trolls portrays their arms being a similar diameter to their legs, suggesting that they are as strong.

In our games trolls have the option to "knuckle", basically move like a gorilla on all 4s. This allows movement within a confined area and can have social TN# modifiers depending on who is watching.

The question is, what would be a suitable movement modifier when "knuckling" is used at high speed. As an animal's top speed to governed by leg speed and stride length what impact do you think this "four-footed" style would have, as it would increase the maximum possible stride length significantly?

Anybody remember Dark Crystal, the "good" monsters where blokes with short crutches as forelegs and they belted along.

The problem with trolls "knuckling" is that the metahuman skeletal structure really isn't designed for it. Gorrilla can move quickly this way because it is how they are built. They're not made to walk upright and can't easily run on two legs.

Metahumans, however, are built to walk erect. Our skeletal structure is designed around the assumption that we will walk upright. I doubt that trolls are an expception to this.

Generally, trying to walk on all fours will cause leg fatigue and eventual back pain. Even with their extra reach, Trolls won't have it much easier.

Knock, knock, knock. Oh, the joys of constructive criticism on this site. I'm having a bad day and you just want to make me share it with you, hyzmarca.

The Spine, the spine Knuckling works off spine lay out. Unless your Trolls has rang factor, which he doesn't. Remember he is Homo Sapian origin with larger or smaller skeletal structure.

After wading through material such as:

Why just trolls? If you're gonna let Trolls knuckle around, there's no reason why everyone wouldn't be doing it. A Troll's skeleton isn't any more suited to doing it that any human's is. Unless you want to change that.

In that case, my totally uninformed opinion is that it wouldn't make the go any faster, but they'd get a bonus when crashing into things (i.e. people) since their center of mass is more concentrated. Like a canonball, really. An angry, ape-like canonball.

It should be slower. 1x movement multiplier.

You are saying this is something they are allowed to do to move around in cramped spaces, it makes absolutely no sense that they would move more quickly in cramped environments than in open ones.

I think it would be of limited value.

Same speeds as normal. Maybe +1 running multiplier but more importantly you can run when the sealing is not as tall as you are.

Also there is the assumption that a troll skeleton is a lager human skeleton. As a human can not use this form of movement nether could a troll. I believe there would be significant differences in skeletal structure between meta types but not necessarily enough (or the right type) to allow for knuckling. Personally I would not allow it but it is your choice in your game.

Edward

I am not sure why you would say it would be useful in cramped spaces. Since the arms are being set down on the ground at points wider than where your feet are, it would probably take more room.

As far as the increased run multiplier, I could see it being 4x or maybe 5x, but nothing more than that. While the stride would be a bit longer and you would gain some minimal benefit from using your feet also, it would not be that much.

For those of you that are thinking it wouldn't be that feasible, I perfect illustration of the use of this can be found 2001 remake of Planet of the Apes. The gorilla soldiers were definitely able to run in this manner faster than the humans were.

Vertically cramped spaces.

~J

I dislike the use of movies to justify things as being real.

Ant it would defiantly only provide a benefit in low places rather than cramped floor space.

Edward

Planet of the Apes DVD shows that the knuckling apes were actors with arm extensions. They were only about 15 cm long. Given the different proportions of a troll, knuckling could be feasible. The speed (as the actors knuckled alongside a horse) came from the actors moving on a very long tarp that was being pulled by a truck. I would allow a 3x run multiplier in vertically cramped spaces but no more.

And that is why I dislike using movies to justify things being real.

I thought the actors where hanging from a harness as well. All in all it was a fabulous bit of cinematography but that is all.

Edward

I would think that Trolls have enough trouble fitting in to society, so I don't think too many would choose to alienate even more people by adopting animal-like mannerisms.

Walking without protection on your hands on hard surfaces (concrete, for example) is going to be truly brutal on your hands. Humans hands aren't made to handle the impact of locomotion the way that our feet are, and even feet can get ripped up running too much on hard surfaces without shoes. Gorillas mostly walk on softer surfaces (natural instead of artificial). Imagine the difference in punching solidly packed earth and punching a concrete wall

Dermal armor, and that's from bone deposits. Trust me, even smooth floor hurts.

~J

Never mind impact, it's going to start hurting if you sit on a solid hardwood floor for too long. Most corp installations are probably going to have softer stuff down, though.

~J

You know, there's all these arguments for why we can't knuckle properly, having to do with shape of the pelvis, curveture of the spine, our hands aren't made for impacts; and you seem to be suggesting that these should be reasons why a Troll can't move that way. Now, I don't know exactly what the curveture of a Troll's spine looks like, or the shape of his pelvis, but you can be damn sure it doesn't look human. A human structure CAN NOT support a 3m tall individual. They MUST be doing something different. Maybe they're built like gorillas in some ways. I don't know! They've got the right arm/leg proportions, much more like a gorilla than you or I.
I think it sounds like a cool idea. Sure, there are a lot of reasons not to, but don't try to tell me why a Troll CAN'T, because they're bodies are built exactly like sapiens sapiens.

Heck, I don't care if they can or can't. I'm sure as hell not going to give them a running *bonus* for it. It's still going to be slower than running upright. I'll give a 2 running multiplier for it, if it ever popped up in my games, which it won't, because noone plays trolls because of the social ramifications in my game.

I'd allow a cheap troll edge that allowed them to get up to a x3 running multiplier with it, to keep up with others. But that's it. Otherwise, it's just some really cool flavor.

I think, if the troll has taken the right precautions re wrist supports and practice - because i think it would take a certain amount of conditioning, bone deposits or no bone deposits before you could handle this as something the person did 'naturally' (i.e. instinctively without having to think about it.) - then I'd allow normal movement for it. I've not read any IC stuff which suggests that trolls have a skeletal structure exactly the same as a sapien sapien, in fact it all seems to specifically back up that there are significant differences. All the artwork shows a creature with long arms and short legs. Being able to knuckle around therefore doesn't seem that far fetched. I wouldn't give them extra speed - as you say its primarily for moving around in low ceiling areas and they're still going to have to be careful - knuckling isn't going to lose them all that much in the height department looking at the artwork - their arms come down to their knees, so there's only a short distance they will actually be dropping. It may be as much as a metre, but I'd have thought closer to half a metre.

But I would have thought they could build up quite a lot of momentum if they had the chance - say 10-quickness in metres as a run up (so that the faster you are the shorter the run up distance instead of the other way round which seems screwy). If you can get that kind of a run up in melee combat - say for a charge - I might add either +2 power to the attack or (that's OR, not AND) maybe even +1 damage level just for sheer impact.

I don't think its an idea completely out of the realms of possibility, though I agree that I think it unlikely it would ever be used except away from the prying eyes of the general public or media since its not as if trolls don't have enough image problems. A runner who used it as his 'signature' seems reasonable, but I'd make them have the Distinctive Style flaw if they were going to use it a lot.

EDIT - and as for using movie physics to demonstrate a point, I have to say movie physics are the ONLY reason some of the rules in SR work in the first place. If you want to make all your physics real you might want to start work on Shadowrun 4th edition, and base it on Millennium's End or something. Many SR games are run like high octane action movies, and some say that's how its meant to be done. Some also say it isn't meant to be that way, but *I* say bullets make sparks when they hit stuff, shotgun blasts knock you through plate glass windows, and furthermore, even though its not physics, I also say many corps keep their hard research data online plugged into the matrix and keep a full squad of guards at all extraterritorial facilities. OK?

A few observations about trolls.

They have gorilla limb proportions.
They have horns that are found on animals that charge.
Their gestation period is longer.
They are armour plated.
They appear clumsy and awkward.
They do not appear to have a high enough STR and BOD for their size.
The longest a troll has been a troll is only 44 years.

Thus,

Tweak a troll's skeleton

1) Asymmetrical S-curve spine - easier quadrapedal movement, less efficient bipedal strength and co-odination. A troll would need more muscles in proportion to a human to function upright, but wouldn't suffer when moving around "on all fours". The additional muscle/ligament/tendon structure to support a less than efficient spine would also be damaged easier than a human configuration.
2) Widish pelvis - the legs would appear almost bow-legged as the stance is widened, the hips would tip less causing a waddle, but quadrapedal movement of the legs is no longer hindered. Delivery after a longer gestation period is eased with the new arrangement of the pelvic area.
4) Apish ankles/feet - Altering the shape of the ankle and foot would hinder bipedal movement reducing speed and stability (poor QCK), but allow increased power and shock absorption in quadrapedal movement.
5) Armour plating and horns - What is the point of ramming with horns 9' off the ground, put them 5' off the ground and they remain effective. For trolls to have retained horns and armour they must have been useful more resently than human found 4 hands.
6) Knuckling movement - At slow speed and confined headroom and tri/quadrapedal movement is a good combination when you're couple of feet taller than the room. Walking through to running is more efficient in a bipedal stance, better acceleration and visibility, but sprinting is a different matter. Increasing a stride length by the length of the torso and extended arms would result in a stride length whilst "galloping" in excess of 9'. 1x=knuckling or walking, 2x=bipedal jogging, 3x=bipedal running, 4x or 5x=knuckling.


In 206x trolls are only just be begining to form a creole culture, unless anybody knows of some Immortal Trolls. Many trolls (all the elders) will have been born human or had human parents, it is only recently trolls have been raised by true-born trolls. The need to disassociate with animal characteristics will be reducing, allowing new true-born trolls to maintain "crawling" into later life. So currently knuckling is looked down on hard, but in the future who knows?

As a game balance thing what is so upsetting about a 5x-6x multiplier? Retrograde cyberlegs give a movement modifier increase and the stride length modification when knuckling is greater, plus using all four limbs means no readied weapons what so ever.

Honestly, the only problem I have is that it would look retarded. That, alone, is enough reason for me to not even consider it.

Trolls move just fine in cramped conditions, and can even sneak around as well as anybody else (which is remarkable considering their size). The only reason they have a relatively slow running speed is because their have stunted legs for their size just like dwarves.

Their legs are just as long as humans, orks and elves so there is no justification for slower movement using that old chestnut.

Feel free to enlighten me, then. Be sure to include the page references.

I can point to pages such as 108 (Movement Rates and Running), 95 (Stealth), and 87 (Athletics), and not a one of those pages have any modifiers -- let alone penalties -- listed for trolls. In fact, due to a troll's high Body score, they make *exceptional* runners even when unskilled.

The only problem a troll has as far as his running speed goes is his Quickness attribute. But that's an attribute-based "problem," not a uniquely racial one... and it's one that his Athletics skill (or Body Test) gets around quite easily by making a single success.

EDIT: To prove the point, here's a few numbers. I'm assuming two Olympiads with maxed out attributes and an Athletics skill equal to their Body score since that's the highest one can go without taking additional Karma penalties.

Olympic Elf; max natural Quickness 12, Body 11, Athletics 11.
Olympic Troll; max natural Quickness 9, Body 18, Athletics 18.

Assuming average (50%) successes on the Athletics Test, the Olympic Troll will have a final running speed of 54 while the Olympic Elf will have a final running speed of 51. Troll wins. If you assume multiple heats where each one eventually gets the maximum number of successes on the Athletics Test, the Olympic Troll will have a running speed of 81 while the Olympic Elf will only have a running speed of 69. Troll makes Elf his bitch.

To be fair, that troll spent a lot more karma maxing out his attributes/athletics than did the elf. Assuming a starting point of the racial modified limits (plus bonus attribute points to quickness and body, as is implied by your numbers) and athletics skills of 6 each, the troll spends 606 karma maxing out his body, quickness, and althetics to the levels you specified. Your elf only spent 351 karma doing the same thing. If you take the extra karma the troll used and let the elf spend it to increase his athletics, he will end up with an athletics of 19, and will still kick the troll's a55 in the olympics.

Yeah, I knew that. I was just pointing to the racial aspects to point out that trolls aren't slow, not the actual Karma expenditures to max out those aspects.

But if you want a 0 Karma version, how's this.

Troll: Body 3[8], Quickness 3[2]. Athletics defaulted to.
Elf: Body 3[3], Quickness 3[4]. Athletics defaulted to.

I don't know how to calculate probabilities, but with a Body nearly three times as high as the elf's, I'm assuming the troll gets three successes to the elf's one. Final running speeds are 15 for both -- a tie. And that's only because the Elf gets a +1 to Quickness; against any other metatype, the troll wins.

So yeah, the point stands -- trolls aren't slow.

Base TN is what, 4? That moves the TN to an 8, which means that the Troll will get a single success most of the time, while the Elf averages a success somewhat under half the time. The elf expects to run 12 meters/turn, while the Troll expects 9. Untrained elves are faster, but not dramatically so.

~J

And, certainly, those horns must be used, insofar as there is no such thing as a vestigial trait. Likewise, the human tailbone is incredibly useful. And those blind cave fish, they use their eyes to great advantage.

also IIRC deer have antlers, which are very different then horns.

however, i do think headbutting a troll would be a bad experience

No, 30% is not a lot faster. 30% is actually meaninglessly faster. 1.3 meters per combat turn is marginally faster than 1 meter per combat turn. 3900 meters/turn is much faster than 3000 meters/turn. 12 meters/turn is not very much faster than 9.

~J

In SR2 trolls had x2 movment multiplier I think, some people might be mixing that in to their recollections.

10% of humans do not have an appendix (naturally, not via surgery).

Also the appendix may be a good example of a local maximum of evolution. The appendix is fairly small, and doesn't do any known good for a person, however sometimes its contents become stagnant and infect. The likelyhood of this is related to the size of the opening connecting the appendix to the gut, the smaller this opening the more likely it is to become infected. Thus there is actually selection to keep the appendix larger than some minimum size in order to keep the opening large enough to not infect, evolving away the appendix all in one step is aparrantly tricky somehow (though it is happening, as a small fraction of people completely lack it) so the appendix has reached an equilibrium size below which it is actually more dangerous.

Traits do actually tend to melt away over time if they are truely useless through random mutation and there is always a metabolic cost to having a structure vs not having it, however things also get stuck in local maxima very easily. The tailbone is probably there because it is difficult for our development to go straight from some fairly large vertebra to attach the pelvis to to nothing at all immediately. It is developmentally easier to have the next vertebra be smaller, and the one after than, and so on until finally some threshold is reached. In the end the cost of having a tailbone there to break is sufficiently low that the intricate spinal development mutations that could get rid of it without messing up the spine or pelvis are too rare to spread (especially considering that in the wild there are far fewer hard surfaces to fall on and break one's tailbone).

Basically evolution is a greedy search algorithm and is not complete or optimal.

As a former biologist I agree that "its magic" is the best explination for most of the stuff in shadowrun.

sorry to burst everyone's bubble on the appendix but I know of somebody in perth who has a functional appendix, apparently it aids in the digestion of cellulose... but increases flatulence

Thanks for the nice words from the biologists (former or not). DF there are situational modifiers for cover/restriction/etc, differing signatures, et al spread throughout the rules.

Now seriously, considering all of the points I've raised can you agree that trolls can knuckle at speed