Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Recoil Question
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Beaman
Sorry, this is pretty noobie, but I need to go ahead and get proof of it from an experienced source

Me and my GM had a dispute about recoil and how it works
This was only my second real run, and he's been GMing for quite a while

----

Citing SR3, this is what I came up with- Firing a weapon in a pass (pass being each individual round of the combat turn) generates recoil, depending on how you fire it, for that pass ONLY (your recoil will refresh on your next action)

These are all standard guns following standard rules (not machine guns or assault cannons or anything with special modifiers)

Single Shot weapon is a +0 recoil on the first shot (simple action), +1 on the second (simple action)
Burst fire is a +3 on the first burst (simple action), +6 on the second action (simple action)
Full-Auto is a +X (complex action), where X = the number of rounds fired

Now this is how my GM does it-

Firing a weapon in a pass generates recoil, depending on how you fire it, for the ENTIRE combat turn (resets at the start of the next one when everyone rolls initiative)

Single Shot is a +1 on the first shot (simple action), +2 on the second (simple action)
Burst and Full-Auto stay the same

----

Now onto firing two weapons, once again we both have a disagreement
SR3 states "any uncompensated recoil modifers applicable to one weapon also apply to the other weapon."
I believe the key word is MODIFIERS, as in modifiers to the target number for having recoil, not recoil itself
He believes the total RECOIL of a weapon is applicable to both weapons

Here is an example using dual-wield on two UNCOMPENSATED weapons in BURST mode WITHOUT the +2 target to each gun for dual wielding

My version:
gun A fires a burst, +3 recoil/+3 mod
gun B fires a burst, +3 recoil/+6 mod
gun A fires a burst +6 recoil/+9 mod
gun B fires a burst +6 recoil/+12 mod

As you can see recoil is left independent between the two guns, but their modifier for that recoil is added to the other gun's modifier for its recoil

His version:
gun A fires a burst +3 recoil/+3 mod
gun B fires a burst +6 recoil/+6 mod
gun A fires a burst +12 recoil/+12 mod
gun B fires a burst +21 recoil/+21 mod

Recoils in this example are stacked onto each other, so in addition to the +3 for the burst you're firing at that given moment you're also sufferring the current recoil of that gun, and the recoil of the other gun being added onto it in one big number, which is then added back onto the other gun, producing insane amounts of recoil which is even more crippling when combined with the belief that recoil refreshes only at the beginning of each combat turn

----

Now for a single shot example, again, WITHOUT the +2 modifier for dual-wield

My version:
gun A fires, +0 recoil/+0 mod
gun B fires, +0 recoil/+0 mod
gun A fires, +1 recoil/+1 mod
gun B fires, +1 recoil/+2 mod

Gun A on that second firing gets the +1 for the second shot, semi-auto modifier
Gun B gets the same penalty for its second shot as well as a +1 for the recoil on gun A

I wont bother for an example of his on this one

----

I sincerely thank you if you actually took the time to read through all of this and can give me some clarification, so that our group wont lose another hour over this like it did last session
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Beaman)
Single Shot weapon is a +0 recoil on the first shot (simple action), +1 on the second (simple action)

Terminology: A Single-Shot weapon can only fire once/Initiative Pass. You're describing a Semi-Automatic weapon there.

You are absolutely correct all the way through. I'm at a loss how someone can actually read through the SR3 Combat Section and get it so completely wrong as your GM has.

[Edit]That is, you are absolutely correct as far as SR canon is concerned. Does your GM actually claim that he does it by the book? Or is that all part of his house rules? If it's house rules, it's a whole another debate.[/Edit]
Canid13
I agree with Austere Emancipator, you are right according to the official rules. With one exception.

The rules state that uncompensated recoil from both guns effects the other - so you're not adding enough TN modifiers in your example. This is because Guns A and B are firing simultaneously, so their recoil stacks.

Gun A burst fires - +3 Recoil
Gun B burst fires - +3 Recoil
+6 modifier to both guns since uncomp'd recoil applies equally and stacks.

For the second bursts, both suffer a +12 since you have an additional 3 recoil from both.

I personally don't agree with this, but according to the official rules that's how it works.
Austere Emancipator
Oh, right, because you fire both the weapons at the same time, so the recoil of Gun B already affects Gun A.
RedmondLarry
QUOTE (Beaman)
+0 recoil on the first shot (simple action), +1 on the second (simple action)
You're right on the effect, but not quite right on the wording. Each shot in Semi-Auto generates +1 recoil, but the penalty only applies to following shots. The result is the same: no recoil penalty on the first shot, +1 penalty on the second.

You should also consider recoil compensation.

Consider firing two SMGs, the first with 3 points of recoil compensation (RC) and the second with RC 4.

First Simple Action, a burst from each weapon:
=> No recoil penalties, as all rounds are compensated.

Second Simple Action, a burst from each weapon:
=> Recoil penalty of 5 applies to both weapons, as one weapon generates a penalty of 3 and the other a penalty of 2.
ES_Riddle
QUOTE (Canid13)
The rules state that uncompensated recoil from both guns effects the other - so you're not adding enough TN modifiers in your example. This is because Guns A and B are firing simultaneously, so their recoil stacks.

I don't think it ever explicitly says that you're firing off the two guns simultaneously (don't have CC on me so I can't check, but it doesn't in BBB), and the wording in the BBB is unclear enough that it seems that the way Beaman described it is at least arguably right.

I don't know how anyone in that campaign uses anything other than a Single Shot weapon unless no one has wired/boosted/improved reflexes.
Beaman
Yea, our group has already agreed that both guns aren't firing simultaneously, that it's one gun at a time for all four shots [edit: or four bursts]
Thanks to all for helping clarify this point though, it's really appreciated
littlesean
For the most part I disagree with you GM's interpretation. But there is one thing that my GM has implemented and I kind of like it, as it does end up putting more of an emphasis on RP solutions vs firing solutions.

It is this, recoil penalties don't clear until new initiative is rolled.

His justification, of which I only partly buy into, is this. Your speed freak gets 4 passes and takes two simple action shots each pass. 8 rounds in under 4 seconds. This is not as fast as burst or FA but it is going to generate recoil that unless it is compensated, needs to be accounted for.

I am not sure that I will implement it in my games, but it is something to think about.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012