I've been looking at White Wolf games recently, and I'd like to know your thoughts on them, especially if you've played some. How do they compare to Shadowrun? It seems like there is less to "do" in these games, being limited by the fact that you are a vampire or whatever. Shadowrun has this liberty of goal and actions that I don't think these games have.

Also, I took a quick look at Mage traditions, and man, there are some good ideas for Shadowrun initiatory groups and threats in there. I especially liked the idea of mages who are fervent ecstasy seekers. Seems so obvious to me know that such groups would exist in Shadowrun.

Anyway, please post your miscellaneous thoughts on all of this.

I think the focuses of the games are very different. Shadowrun works more like an action movie, while most of the White Wolf games work more like an action/drama/horror depending on what kind of game you're running. I don't think there's anything fundamentally worse about WW games compared to Shadowrun or vice versa, they're just different styles. And I like both of them.

My 2

I tend to try and follow the metaplot, which culminates in everything being responsible by a guy named Dave living in Illinois.

The feeling of the games is as said very different to Shadowrun. I'll talk about both the World of Darkness games and Exalted.

The World of Darkness games can best be summed up in one word; desperation. You play as a being of great power who is in a losing fight against whatever it is. In Mage you are fighting against the restricting grasp of "reality". In Demon you are fighting for Redemption in a world without faith. In Vampire you fight against destiny (the imminent end of the world). In Werwolf (the most combat heavy) you fight a losing battle against the Wyrm, against pollution and corruption.
Those are very broad, but my experience with those games isn't large. My WOD game of choice is Hunter, and that's the most desperate. You've been chosen to fight in a war no-one has any real idea how to fight against monsters that are ancient and very powerful, armed only with a few supernatural abilities that seem squat in comparison to what the creatures of the night have.
All WOD games are in short bleak, dark and desperate in atmosphere.

Exalted is also different to Shadowrun but for different reasons. Basically you play a demi god in it. This means you have enormous potential to change the world. Unlike in Shadowrun where the players can't really change the status quo, in Exalted you can (from taking over cities, to overthrowing empires to dealing with a major "bad" guy in the setting). In Exalted you have the strength to change the world, and as players you are encouraged to use it. Exalted is a game of epic deeds, epic struggles and total coolness. It is based on anime and Hong Kong action movies, as well as old epics like the Illiad and the Romance of Three Kingdoms.
Exalted is my favourite game of all time and it shows.

Check out White Wolf's website if you're really interested. All the games have good coverage (as well as Orpheus - a game I know little about).

Hope that helped

Well, Orpheus just barely came out, so there hasn't been much time for folks to formulate on an opinion yet. My copy came in the mail today. Mmm.

For that matter, what is Orpheus? I've never heard of it until now.

Well, I ran a Changeling The Shadowrun game at Dragoncon, aside from the silliness involved in having a bunch of comedians as players, it works rather well.

Orpheus (a VERY limited RPG) is about the player becoming employed by The Orpheus Group, a collection of Meduims-for-hire who regularly send their spirits over to the Deadlands (see also Wraith) to invesigate. Of course, problems ensue....

Shadowrun stands on it's own, both as a Cyberpunk-theme and with it's unique Magic system.

The Orphic Circle?!

I remember hearing about those guys from other WW RPGs!

Cool

Yeeaah...they do that alot.

The Orpheus page is at http://www.white-wolf.com/orpheus/ - it looks pretty interesting. I hope my copy arrives soon.

Hmmm...apparently I was mistaken. This doesn't look like the Orphic Circle.

So these guys are basically World of Darkness Ghostbusters?

And if you are looking some recent world changing canon information, check out the Time Of Judgement. It basicly says that the current World Of Darkness, discluding Exalted and the Dark Ages line, will come to an end at 14. of january 2004. But they will release a new World Of Darkness line at the end of that year.

It's in the following press release: http://www.timeofjudgement.com/press.html

"An all-new World of Darkness launches in August of 2004."

Sweeeeeeeeet.

The thing I like best about the World of Darkness is the desperation factor. Its almost like EVERYONE stats out w/ the Dark Fate flaw, 'cause yer all gonna die when the world ends...

But by that same hand it gives rise to a lot more martyrs (I like Werewolf the best, could ya tell?). I tend towards a "your ends justify your means" in RL and RP so when the fate of the world is on the line, pretty much anything goes. I also like the anti-hero concept. Its even more prevelant than SR. In SR you could be thought of a "street moster" or "criminal" by the general populace. In WOW, for the most part, you ARE a monster.

Apart from all that, it seems that the WOD has most comedian-players on its side. I don't know why, but personal experience and surfing the web showed me, that NO rpg can stand up against the dark and gritty worlds from White Wolf, when it comes to make the table lough out reaaaaaaly loud.

It's like a small paradox...

You mean they came out with a new system, jusdt a few months before they scrap all their systems?

We've played a little with them , Hot wheels is going to GM a short campaign of VtM after we finish the current story line we're on. The games seem to be very character driven with basic tmeplates that you build on. Lots and lots of supplimetns but little in the way of pre-written adventures so GM's really have to feel out their way.

Hmm, pretty interesting stuff, especially Ronin Soul. But what do players do in an average session? I mean, in Shadowrun, there's gonna be a "mission" somewhere, where you are going to do something ranging from infiltrating a facility to killing a fixer in the slums. And in between this action, your players will relate with the shadowy people of their world, while at the same time fighting to keep their sane humanity, be it simply by making a small gesture like stopping a pimp from beating your favorite whore.

So what do you *do* in mage, vampire or werewolf? The metaplot seems to be extremely prelevent (compared to shadowrun, where canon evets don't really influence my games much), which is something I think I like. So do you go around gathering info on the coming apocalyspe exclusively? I just don't see what a game would be about, what it's stucture is, and what the long term fun is. Acting like a dramatic brooding vampire is fun for like a game or two, but I don't see myself truly developing a character like that.

And yeah, I visited White Wolf's page. That's what prompted my post.

What do you do?

That's up to the Storyteller and your players to decide.
It's good to actually talk about what characters they want to play and if they have some set goals.

Vampire: One character could try to become the justacar or even prince of a city, while the other might try to help him to further their anarch goals.

Mage: The old masters are gone. New paradigms arise. New opportunities. The players perhaps want to form a _real_ multi-tradition cabal and show a way for the others to follow. So, where do they set up their chantrie? How do they secure their node from Werebeasts and the Technocrats? How to consolidate power?

Werewolf: Never played... Sorry. No hints that I could give you, without talking out of my ass.

Wraith: Struggle with your shadow. Try to correct old wrongs. And don't slide too far away...

Changeling: Again... Sorry.

. . .

It's much mory 'story' driven than 'mission oriented'. (Meant in a neutral way!)

Werewolf can be mission-oriented, of sorts. Obviously, when you go against an all-pervasive evil like the Wyrm, you have to pick a battle . . . then another . . . and another.

Say you take out a few Vamps just for warm-up, then discover they're in league with this corp, Pentex. So you go there, smash their local HQ (not as easy as it sounds), and see where that leads you.

Usually, the "missions" are ones the characters choose, rather than ones given to them by an employer, though. The chars might just as easily fight against snuff kiddie porn producers with supernatural connections . . .

In Vampire, it often makes sense to create a group with some reason to belong to/trust in each other. Unlike the Garou, who at least share a common goal, Vamps usually don't have common goals, at least not across Clan lines. These slags invented the concept of paranoia and don't consider it a sickness; it's a survival trait. In VtM, they are out to get you. All of them. Including your Sire, your siblings in darkness, your Clan brothers and sisters, literally everyone.
At least canon makes it sound like that.

I think my biggest problem with WoD is that it slid down the slippery slope that Shadowrun sometimes skirts dangerously close to the edge of, where normal, everyday human people are simply fodder for the rest of the planet's supernatural inhabitants. Evidently every major historical figure in the WoD has been a vampire, a werewolf, a mage....on and on. The system is built around these supernatural creatures, so normal people die waaaay easy, and have almost no way to fight these things.

I also have a problem with jut how powerful players can be with relative ease; granted, EVERY game system can be tweaked to the point where your character becomes almost invincible, but WoD seems to be more vulnerable to it than most. But I think I have gone into why I don't like systems with a huge gradient between weak and strong characters before, so I won't bore people with that again.

Some of WoD's source material is pretty cool, though. I definitely liked the flavor of 2nd Ed Vampire, but unfortunately, a lot of games do not keep this, either boiling into hack and slash silliness or overwrought angstifying, rather than gripping horror. I've also heard that the tone of the game tends to change every time new developers come online, which could get annoying.

What you describe is the reason I'll never run a Sabbat game. Camarilla Kindred I can at least remind that they want to keep their Humanity for a while. And my humans always had the ability to fight back to some degree. Of course, I remembered the advice WW gave in the Storyteller's Guide: Avoid making every celebrity a Vampire.
A full crossover game also makes it fairly easy to explain why humans remained their own masters . . .

The futility quotient, as Chris Kubasik called it, is another annoyance, but easily dealt with by a simple rule of adventure fiction: There's always hope. For the world, at least.

Getting a good horror mood isn't easy . . . keeping it up for session after session is something I admit I can't do. Plus, you absolutely need good players. The power level of characters can be pretty monstrous in and of itself, if you allow Elder Vamps as PCs. That doesn't really help the horror mood, though.

The other factor that annoys me are blatant inconsistencies between the game background and the mechanics.

Case in point: I do occasionally play a hideously powerful, now 4th Generation Ventrue. He was intentionally designed as a combat monster (also as a tragic hero, because even after 2000 years, he actually believes in the line the Blue Bloods feed the rest of the world). Just for laughs, and to see what would happen, the GM had 120 13th to 9th Gen Kindred ambush him.

And he slaughtered them all within 12 turns. Wasn't even scratched doing it.

And WW asks me to believe that some young Turks took out Antediluvians? wth stats at 10 across the board, and all the "usual" Disciplines? Yeah right, pull the other one.

@Black Isis: I'll agree you about the "every major figure has been a werewolf (or related to them) or Vampire". Its gets a little old but I think that's what the designers had in mind. To show that greatness in humans comes from the supernatural.

As for normal humans being too easy to kill, I think that's appropriate. If I'm a Werewolf or a Vampire I should have a pretty easy time dispatching some norms. Besides, its like old (1st/2nd Ed) D&D. I had this one Assassin that I had played for years (of Real Time) to get up to some ridiculous level, like 13 or 14, and I hadn't fought a human since 9th level. By that point, every one else in the group was such a munchkin we were fighting devils in the Hells.

There goes the crossover-continuity. *g*

Mage makes the point, to point out really hard, that it's NOT like 'Mages and Technocrats run the world, invent new things and kill off the bad guys'.

Many of the greatest minds in Mage history had been mundanes/sleepers. Read the "Mage - Storytellers Handbook" for this. They stress it quite often.

don't have Mage. but I'll take your word for it.

Mage - Storyteller Handbook

p.40

Despite being set in generally the same 'world' the WoD games are not in the same world. Since they are all developed by different line developers, there will be inconsistencies in both the rules and the setting. In general, WoD games do not cross-over that well because the powers levels and motivations of the characters can be very hard to balance. If you are running a Wod games where 'other WoD critters' appear, then it is best to use the game you are actually running as 'the truth' with the other games as 'add ons'.

Of the WW games, I'd say that mage (2nd edition, not the crappy 3rd), vampire, and exalted are probably the best.

Hunter is the most "Mundane fair". The Imbued aren't normal mundies but they were to start with. All you have to do to be a Hunter is to be in the right place (when a monster is around and when the Messangers are watching) and then act on the revelation that monsters exist in whatever way is most appropriate to your character. Viola. you character is know one of the Imbued.
Take Back the Night!

Inherit the Earth.

I tend to run Hunter games as horror. I mean, the Imbued are a bunch of relatively normal people with the will and strength of heart to react to the knowledge that the supernatural is real and not particularly friendly. Half the time is spent groping around trying to find the supernatural and then learning about it; is it a threat? how can we fight it?
Then the Hunters, if they do try to fight it are often scared stiff because the average monster will chew a Hunter to pieces with little effort. The only strengths the Imbued have are numbers, their innate immunities as members of the Chosen and their Edges, which can actually be pretty sweet. But all the same the attrition in a combat heavy Hunter game is high. THese are mortals trying to fight monsters after all, of course a lot of them will die.
A lot of the horror in Hunter comes from the characters themselves. They're not really Hunters; as Carepenter says they're really "Sheep with shotguns", and that is apt. Hunters are terrified that the monsters will kill them, terrified that the monsters will use the authorities (that they usually control) to ruin their lives. Hell, a lot of Hunters are scared of themselves.
Take Waywards. These guys are made psychopathic when they imbue. The wayward character in our group once drove a car at about 60 miles per hour into a crowded cafe to kill one mage. This scared not only the other characters but the Wayward character as well (what have I become? sort of thing). By the same token the Defender character in our group has become a full blown alcoholic just to cope with the life he is now thrust into.
Everyday humans are simply not designed to hunt monsters, and yet they have too, because no one else will.
And that is the rub.

A lot of WOD games are based around identity - Hunter and Vampire in particular. What has the character become? Can they hold onto their old lives? Their old friends? Their old personalities? Can they live with themselves? More than one Hunter has committed suicide because they simply cannot cope.
And that is horror gaming at its finest.
And horror gaming is what the WOD is all about.

(I get the impression your not really interested in Exalted. If you re just say so and I'll tell you all about it )

I only played and mastered Vampire Werewolf and Mage.
Werewolf is the most teamplay oriented of the games, you can have several specialists in your pack and play mission after mission. Vampire is in the middle ground, because your superiours like clan elders, princes, sheriffs, justiciars etc can force you to become a functioning coterie (team). The abilities are even more widespread then with werewolves. Mage is a bunch of loners working for a common goal from time to time. Every mage looks for ascension in his own private way that can differ a lot from colleagues in his own tradition, even more for other traditions. Prepare to have a lot of downtime gaming in single sessions.

What my coterie does, example from our Vampire Paris campaign:
The coterie consists of an Assamite, a Brujah, a Giovanni and a Nosferatu.
The Assamite is spending a lot of his time gathering blood, via trading favors and services, learning better french. He is one of two assamites within 400 kilometres and thus often called upon by his elders and plans his assassinations carefully, so he does a lot of spying, legwork and preparing. He aspires to become a better generation within the next two years.
The Brujah works as a strongman for the sheriff, parties a lot with his sire and is a apprentice to the assamite in terms of break and entry as well as stealth. He likes to decorate his home with stolen goods like a billiard table, several arcade consoles and expensive hifi stuff. Besides he has a shady dojo for savate and boxing, working in league with to of his ghouls, of which one is his bodyguard as well. From time to time he fights illegal martial arts duells, sometimes to the death and makes sidebets, while being carefull that his supernatural side doesnt show. His longterm goal is to beome a mayor player in the underworld, setting up his own protection rackets, prostitution ring and thugs for hire.
The Giovanni is big cheese in the nightclub scene, with two of the most sucessfull clubs, interests in various others. He has set up a vampire only hotel with a lot of comfort and security and has his hands in most of he hospital owned blood banks, which helps him to serve special drinks for the vampires who visit his clubs. His ties to his elder who has several funeral enterprises provide him with enough corpses for his zombie experiments and means of disposing of corpses. He currently influences/dominates the Brujah to take the illegal fights to one of his locations in order to get aditional income from tapings etc. He also seeks a way to become clan elder.
The Nosferatu is doing a lot of clanwork. She is system administrator for the french section of the Nosferatu-Web, a secret computer network for spreading information within the clan. She does a lot of research in mathematics and computertechnology, is a cineast and currently teaching a fellow Nosferatu advanced Obfuscate, to free him from his decades long solitude and have him visit the upper world again. She makes a lot of money via hacking and gains a lot of information on other supernaturals and is the only one with ties to mages. What she is up to in the future remains a well hidden secret.

As a coterie we are most often involved with missions which provide better security to the camarilla, seeking out Sabbath packs, working out an unstable truce with the werewolves via extortion and exploring ruins in search of a particular artifact.

On the subject of physically harmless mortals: One of the most feared weapons of our vampires were dominated human suicide bombers. Very deadly tools for a puppet master without a bit of conscience.

Black isis- the challenge in VtM is that while humans are little more than snack-packs (that's why it's called World of Darkness) your average vamp is relatively even in power so you have to be more into role playing. as for mortals, sure you can brush them aside, but if involved in a plot they are the tools of someone and that person might notice if their tool is missing, better to be subtle.

As for Werewolf, I think most games are spent picking fleas off of each other.

Well, the problem I have is, if Vampires/Werewolves/Mages are so absurdly much more powerful than a normal person, why the hell aren't they running EVERYTHING IN THE ENTIRE WORLD. Why bother with the Masquerade if humans are no threat? It might be called "World of Darkness" but for the PCs, it's not all that dark, considering that you are the most powerful creatures on the face of the planet, can essentially have infinite wealth and status at your whim (as long as you stay out of the way of your betters) and there's nothing that can pose any sort of threat to you other than another equally insanely powerful being.

I like games where sure, one on one, you may be a total badass -- but go up against 5 or 6 mooks like that and you are going to be in trouble in short order. If the entire vampire "community" could be slaughtered if the humans realized they existed and the threat they posed, THEN there would be a reason for maintaining the Masquerade. A moderate powerful vampire in WoD seems to have no trouble turning dozens of mundanes into so much hamburger or zombified slaves or some other non-dangerous form in no time.

I like being able to challenge players with opposition that is logical and not insanely powerful -- in my Shadowrun games, not every security guard has Wired Reflexes and Muscle Augmentation, and doesn't carry around an Ares Alpha Combat Gun. But players are still careful around them, because even a mundane with a shotgun and moderate skill can really ruin your day.

First. For your information, lemmings do not suicide over cliffs. That's an urban myth.

Second, introspection is really the major theme of Vampire and Mage, where the characters where either once ordinary humans and now aren't, or the introspection is part of the journey of discovery and enlightment.

Finally, We "humans" aren't the only ones who need to get the fucking hell over ourselves. Brother.

@Black Isis
re: Why not take over the world?

Because it's the same problem as with SR Mages.

Although players make it seem like you can't throw a stone without hitting a Werewolf/Vampire/Mage/Demon/Sorcerer/Corax/Ghoul/Gargoyle/whatever, they're actually pretty rare.

And humans have sheer number and modern technology. Sure, a few hundred thousand would bite the dust, but in the end, any act of open world-domination would result in the end of the 'dominatig' group.

Also, Camarilla vs. Sabbat vs. Anarchs / Traditions vs. Technocracy vs. Crafts / Werewolves vs. Waever / Quiejin vs. Beastcourts vs. Demon Hunters . . . First they would have to clean up their own area of expertise to even try a grasp at open power-mongering.

In the DarkAges Mages had towers and great kingdoms. Vampires throned as Lords and held humans as slaves, only to live by their whim.
Everything was pretty fucked up.

Then the Order of reason and some other peeps' showed the mundane humans how to fight against this (plus, the dominating supernaturals grew lazy). Renneisance. Industrialisation. Modern World.

Masquerade. *shrugs*

The world of Darkness is very dark and gloomy, that's it's overshadowing theme. The specifics of it however get kinda confusing.

Depending on what game you are playing, they each tell a different version of history. I have found that the best approach is to focus on whatever slice you have chosen for yourself.

Example: According to Vampires, all the powerful people in history were pretty much vampires or controlled by vampires. According to the mages, every powerful person in history was either a mage or controlled by mages. Werewolves pretty much well do their own thing so they don't really count.

The point is that there are MANY different versions about who controls what and you should probably slant the "truth" to whatever is more convenient for you.

For instant, concerning the president of the USA, leader of the free world's most powerful nation... so who's pulling HIS strings?!?

1) Mages: The Technocrats. According to the way Mage is played out, it's fairly obvious that the technocrats are winning the ascension war, I mean let's face it, technology is everywhere (it's their magic) and in fact, their paradigm is SO ingrained into the popular consciousness (belief is power in mage) that the technology is useable even by mundanes (your comp, tv, phone...blah blah blah)
The bastards are everywhere and all pervasive.

2) Vampires: According to vampires, the Technocrats really aren't controlling that much since vampires control everything. Their jihad has been affecting this world since, well, since forever.

So who's right? You decide. In our mage campaign, the Technocrats control the government and any vampire who tries to but in will soon discover that mages are nice and crunchy if you get the jump on them but if they are miles away and suddenly decide they want you dead or whatever, wave bye bye to the vampire.

In our vampires campaign, there are bloodbound ghouls in office left right and center, all being used as pawns in the continuing jihad.

the two are kind of mutually exclusive.

Also, the cannon of White Wolf, on top of being erratic, sometimes (in later books) wanders off into silly land in certain cases. Take from the cannon what you wish, and leave the rest, I think the whole Mage/Vampire issue illustrates the inability to use everything as cannon, further emphazising that you really need to dive into the wealth of diverging truths and forge your own.

All in all, I find that the world is rich and ripe for excellent stories. The world picture changes vastly from game to game and I have a personal beef with the combat system which I find kinda flat. It has all it needs to be a great game, in the hands of a good GM.

Hope I helped.

Sunday.

In addition, the several supernaturals have some kind of truce not to take the meddling too far. Werewolfs would not like to see everything dominated by Vampires, Mages wouldnt have it that Wraith possess political key figures etc. Iirc the early WoD Hitler was a puppet for several different supernaturals, which ultimately drove him insane, uncontrollable and far worse than anyone had intended. The resulting shock brought on the relative abstinence from ruling via puppets.