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LinaInverse
OK, I asked this a little while ago and would like to pose a question about Quickening strategies for people to munch on.

The advantages of Quickening are fairly obvious; boosted stats, extended magic senses, etc. If one wants to get radical, you can toss in a few others like Invis, Levitate, etc though they all obviously have their own seperate disadvantages.

The general consensus I got last time is that the main disadvantage (aside from Legal, which is kind of dubious given the Shadowrunner's choice of profession) of Quickening spells on your person is that you are blocked by Astral Wards/Barriers. That is, to get past them, they have to be torn down, which alerts the Ward's creator. From what I gather, the number of Quickenings doesn't matter here; whether you Quicken 1 spell or a dozen, you will face the same blockage.

So, if you as a character decide that you're willing to live with Astral blockage (and the need to rip them down as the case may be), is it worthwhile to go "all the way" and Quicken a whole bunch of stuff, rather than just a single spell? What other issues arise from someone who has a single spell Quickened vs someone who has a whole bunch Quickened? The latter is going to have a lot of presumabely beneficial effects; what price is he paying that the former isn't suffering?
Moon-Hawk
Officially? Ummmm.....
I don't know if quickenings count toward Focus addiction. I think they probably should. If they're cast on yourself, that is. Is it ever explicitly stated either way?
Also, I remember there being a way to slip through a ward without combating it. Do quickened spells also slip through, or do they affect it in any way?
Sorry to ask these questions that I should be answering, I didn't bring my books to work today. wink.gif
LinaInverse
I don't have my books either.

I did do reading on it because I was thinking of using Quickening as part of my long-term development. Officially, there is no issue with Addiction that I saw, and right now, I'm mostly concerned with Official rulings only (no house rules).

I am not aware of any way to bypass a ward without ripping it down. If there is, I'd like to know about it since it would obviously affect what I wrote earlier. From what I remember, when a person w/ a Quickened spell encounters a ward and tries to go through, it becomes a contest of the Force of the Ward vs Spell and the weaker of the two is generally going to go down (wacky rolls aside).
Nikoli
Unless the quickened spell is masked
Moon-Hawk
I'm pretty sure there's a way to 'synchronize auras' or something and slip through. I think it has to do with Masking.
I may be taking this from 2nd ed, but I don't think so.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (LinaInverse)
OK, I asked this a little while ago and would like to pose a question about Quickening strategies for people to munch on.

The advantages of Quickening are fairly obvious; boosted stats, extended magic senses, etc. If one wants to get radical, you can toss in a few others like Invis, Levitate, etc though they all obviously have their own seperate disadvantages.

The general consensus I got last time is that the main disadvantage (aside from Legal, which is kind of dubious given the Shadowrunner's choice of profession) of Quickening spells on your person is that you are blocked by Astral Wards/Barriers. That is, to get past them, they have to be torn down, which alerts the Ward's creator. From what I gather, the number of Quickenings doesn't matter here; whether you Quicken 1 spell or a dozen, you will face the same blockage.

So, if you as a character decide that you're willing to live with Astral blockage (and the need to rip them down as the case may be), is it worthwhile to go "all the way" and Quicken a whole bunch of stuff, rather than just a single spell? What other issues arise from someone who has a single spell Quickened vs someone who has a whole bunch Quickened? The latter is going to have a lot of presumabely beneficial effects; what price is he paying that the former isn't suffering?

The only real use I've ever found for Quickening is for Quickening an innocent spell to an area. It's pretty much a useless technique (or more correctly, a waste of karma) for runners, though, and not just because it's a pain when it comes to astral barriers. Masking becomes almost impossible if you have more than one or two low-Force spells on you, if and when the spell gets popped on a bad roll while going throw a barrier or from an enemy magician, there's absolutely nothing you can do about it (so the Karma you spent on it was just flushed down the toliet). etc.

What I have recently been turned on to, however, are Reusable Anchoring Foci. They're a little on the pricy side, but they make Sustaining Foci completely obsolete since you can turn them on and off on a whim. Best of all, each time you activate it, you get to put all your possible spellcasting dice into the spellcasting (assuming you did so when creating the focus), and then turn right back around and put all those same dice into the Drain Resistance Test. Come across an astral barrier? Just shut it down and throw it right back up after you stroll through. No problem.

The prices involved can be all but ignored by selling just one such focus on the open market using the costs in MitS for buying a bound one (preferably to a legal buyer using a relatively innocent spell -- like say a reusable Heal 6 focus to a street clinic or somehing). 'Course, that's based upon the ridiculous costs Shadowrun relies on and how amazingly easy it is to completely destroy the economy with alchemy and enchanting.
Krieger
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
The prices involved can be all but ignored by selling just one such focus on the open market using the costs in MitS for buying a bound one

I'm gong to assume that by this you mean you buy a bound focus from someone and subsequently remove the bond and rebond it yourself, and not that you buy a pre-bound focus and therefore don't have to pay any Karma cost. I guess that comment confused me a little.

Anyway, I agree that Anchoring foci are very fun. Another great trick is playing with the trigger and setting up a detection spell of some variety in its place. That way you don't even have to worry about turning it on and off. For example, throw a Detect (Bullet) trigger on your Force 6 Armor focus and have fun. smile.gif
LinaInverse
If a Masked spell can sneak past a Ward, then yes, that's a reason for having only 1 (ie, low Force) spell rather than a whole bunch. Is there any kind of contest or is it automatic?

As for the Anchoring Foci, I see the point about losing Karma, but wouldn't the Foci itself contribute to Foci Addiction? I also seem to recall there being a limit to how many Foci one can bond to, limited by Intelligence, where as Quickening has no such limit.

The rules of Quickening also allow you to increase the Force of the spell beyond the casting Force by adding more Karma to it, up to double the spell's original Force. If someone doubles, say, a Force 7 or Force 9 spell to Force 14-18, then frankly, I'd say that's not going to be dropped by anything short of a GM fiat (ie, a Great Dragon shows up for some mysterious reason, etc).

EDIT:
QUOTE
I'm gong to assume that by this you mean you buy a bound focus from someone and subsequently remove the bond and rebond it yourself, and not that you buy a pre-bound focus and therefore don't have to pay any Karma cost. I guess that comment confused me a little.

Whoa... you can bond to a foci w/o spending Karma? And how does this happen? My understanding was that any (non-expendable) foci had to be bonded via Karma first. Even if you do acquire the foci off another mage's stiff, cooling fingers? Certainly, any table I've seen for legit buying involved Karma.
Herald of Verjigorm
It doesn't actually increase the force, it just increases the effective force for conditions that might dispell it. 8 karma into a force 4 spell will only work as well as force 4, but be force 8 to those who try to dispell it. Sphynx has a raven quickening shaman who accidentally killed a mage when the mage attempted to dispell one of his high effective force spells.

The only option to prevent use of karma when bonding a focus is to abuse the "pay enchanter for a point of karma" listing in the back of MitS. 5,000 nuyen.gif per karma isn't cheap, but cred may be more abundant than karma for you.

Yes, anchoring foci count as active bonded foci when they are active, incurring all the associated drawbacks.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Krieger)
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
The prices involved can be all but ignored by selling just one such focus on the open market using the costs in MitS for buying a bound one

I'm gong to assume that by this you mean you buy a bound focus from someone and subsequently remove the bond and rebond it yourself, and not that you buy a pre-bound focus and therefore don't have to pay any Karma cost. I guess that comment confused me a little.

Anyway, I agree that Anchoring foci are very fun. Another great trick is playing with the trigger and setting up a detection spell of some variety in its place. That way you don't even have to worry about turning it on and off. For example, throw a Detect (Bullet) trigger on your Force 6 Armor focus and have fun. smile.gif

I mean selling a bound reusable focus on the market, which will net you a ton of nuyen. You can then use that nuyen to buy the raw resources (or even a premanucatured focus) to enchant your own reusable one for whatever purpose you like.

A simple reusable Makeover 6 anchor, for instance, costs 918,000 nuyen or a ridiculous 3,672,000 nuyen on the black market. That's 459,000 nuyen sold, or 3,672,000 nuyen if you have the Connected: Magical Supplies edge. The 459,000 nuyen, in turn, buys you two-and-a-half Force 6 Reusable Anchors or enough raw materials to enchant your own focus from near-scratch for only 1 Karma per Force.
LinaInverse
QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm)
It doesn't actually increase the force, it just increases the effective force for conditions that might dispell it.  8 karma into a force 4 spell will only work as well as force 4, but be force 8 to those who try to dispell it.  Sphynx has a raven quickening shaman who accidentally killed a mage when the mage attempted to dispell one of his high effective force spells.

The only option to prevent use of karma when bonding a focus is to abuse the "pay enchanter for a point of karma" listing in the back of MitS.  5,000 nuyen.gif per karma isn't cheap, but cred may be more abundant than karma for you.

Yes, anchoring foci count as active bonded foci when they are active, incurring all the associated drawbacks.

I assume you are talking about First Bonding, which specifically states that either the Enchanter or the foci's intended owner has to come up to pay the Karma piper. I didn't think of the "Pay Enchanter" option because I honestly can't conceive any magician (certainly not mine) coughing up 20-40 Karma (or more!), even if she was commissioned to make a foci for someone else. Unless someone paid my char an absurd amount of cash (ie, perm lux lifestyle), I'd never touch such a commission.

Yes, I meant the force to dispel; sorry if I didn't make that clear.

The whole gist of what I have laid out for my Shaman's future growth is that I've already acquired some spells at Force 7, and have found a decent magic group. Once I get enough Initiate lvls and spare Karma, I was thinking of dropping 14 a pop into some Quickened spells. Yes, conceivably, someone could dispel a Tgt#14 Quicken, but honestly I just don't see that happening, short of a GM being an jerk. Frankly, if the GM has someone that magically powerful gunning for you, it's easier (and much less hackneyed) just to kill the mage outright (or fill the Stun track if the enemy is trying to capture them alive) than go up against a double-digit spell in Astral combat.
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (LinaInverse)
Frankly, if the GM has someone that magically powerful gunning for you, it's easier (and much less hackneyed) just to kill the mage outright (or fill the Stun track if the enemy is trying to capture them alive) than go up against a double-digit spell in Astral combat.

Good point. The spell doesn't have to be invincible. Just tougher than you.
LinaInverse
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
Good point.  The spell doesn't have to be invincible.  Just tougher than you.

"I don't have to be faster than the bear. I just have to be faster than you..."

--anonymous hunter to fellow hunter biggrin.gif
DocMortand
Gah, Lina you scare me.

MitS pg.88 has the details for going through astral barriers (of which wards are one type). Here's the quote:

"An initiate who knows the metamagical technique of masking may attempt to "synchronize" auras with the barrier. Make a Success Contest, using dice equal to twice the grade of the initiate (or Spirit Energy for spirits) against a target number equal to the barrier's Force for the initiate or spirit. For the barrier, use a number of dice equal to the barrier's Force against a target number equal to the grade or Spirit Energy. If you get more successes than the barrier, you can enter freely just like the creator."

Masking Foci and Spells is on pg. 77:

"The masking covers the initiate and a number of Force Points of foci and/or sustained/quicked spells on the initiate's person equal to his grade. Beyond that, the presence of foci or spells can be seen on the astral plane. To hide additional foci/spells, the character must make a deliberate masking attempt..."

How to deliberately mask:

"Roll a number of dice equal to twice the character's grade against a target number equal to his Magic. Every 2 successes counter 1 success a viewer may generate to penetrate the mask."

I would think you would have to deliberately mask or the mask you're trying to create to spoof a ward would not be sufficient - but it doesn't say anywhere what the increase to the 'defeat the ward' test would be. Any suggestions?
LinaInverse
Oops... shouldn't have laid out my evil plans where my GM could see them...biggrin.gif

I knew about the lvl of the Initiate=Force Masking can hide. The early part of my "plan" invovled staying under the radar as it were (ie, staying under my Initiate lvl). The part about plopping down 14 Karma wasn't supposed to come until later...hehehe...

The bit about how to "synchronize" past a barrier has me curious though; does it mean that if you succeed, you can pass through the barrier, regardless of what spells you have active? It's generally accepted that a ward's creator can always pass through his own wards, Quickened spells and all. If the writeup essentially says that you are able to pass "freely just like the creator", then does that mean you can sneak past a whole bunch of spells?

Since my own campaign GM is here, obviously he's going to be making such a ruling one way or another as far as his campaign runs, which is fine w/ me. So this question is basically more academic to everyone else on how the "generic" rules would apply more than my specific circumstances.
Adarael
Just as a reference point, ever since my main PC picked up Masking several years ago, I've encountered something along the line of 12-16 wards. Of these, he's broken two - both in the Arcology, when he was in a rather massive hurry. Integrating with a ward and stepping through it is *not* very hard at all.

In retrospect, I'm incredibly glad I got masking before I got quickening, because I'd be knocking down my Increase Reflexes 2 (Force 4), Enhance Aim Extended Range (Force 4), and the like extremely often. However, I've also quickened a whole lotta stuff on my teammates, too. How do I get around this problem?

Look up the rules for reducing a barrier's force. Myself and the Adept (who has Astral Perception, and Masking) slip into the ward. We then tap on it, slowly reducing the force to about 1 or 2. Then we have the rest of the team walk through - the ward is *drastically* less able to knock out Quickened spells then.

I also feel it neccessary to note that knocking out a ward will *not* automatically alert the creator. Alarm wards are the only wards that alert the creator if they're destroyed (or even penetrated without being destroyed), and they won't physically keep out astral bodies any more than concealment wards will.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Adarael @ Oct 19 2004, 02:26 PM)
I also feel it neccessary to note that knocking out a ward will *not* automatically alert the creator. Alarm wards are the only wards that alert the creator if they're destroyed (or even penetrated without being destroyed), and they won't physically keep out astral bodies any more than concealment wards will.

No, the creator of *any* ward knows when the ward is attacked or destroyed (SR3 p. 176, Astral Objects). Alarm Wards are special nearly-invisible wards that don't actually stop anyone from passing through, they only alert their creator when someone passes through.

So congratulations. You're playing with a GM who's never really read the rules in question and have been letting you get by easy.
DocMortand
*snicker* Thanks, Adarael...now I gotta make sure all my wards are alarms. vegm.gif Oh, and force 12. *cackle*
LinaInverse
QUOTE (Adarael)
Just as a reference point, ever since my main PC picked up Masking several years ago, I've encountered something along the line of 12-16 wards. Of these, he's broken two - both in the Arcology, when he was in a rather massive hurry. Integrating with a ward and stepping through it is *not* very hard at all.

In retrospect, I'm incredibly glad I got masking before I got quickening, because I'd be knocking down my Increase Reflexes 2 (Force 4), Enhance Aim Extended Range (Force 4), and the like extremely often. However, I've also quickened a whole lotta stuff on my teammates, too. How do I get around this problem?

Look up the rules for reducing a barrier's force. Myself and the Adept (who has Astral Perception, and Masking) slip into the ward. We then tap on it, slowly reducing the force to about 1 or 2. Then we have the rest of the team walk through - the ward is *drastically* less able to knock out Quickened spells then.

I also feel it neccessary to note that knocking out a ward will *not* automatically alert the creator. Alarm wards are the only wards that alert the creator if they're destroyed (or even penetrated without being destroyed), and they won't physically keep out astral bodies any more than concealment wards will.

Oh absolutely I agree. Masking was definitely going to be the first Metamagic technique I grab. While I may rant on about Quickening, Foci, Anchoring, etc., I absolutely know where my bread is buttered (ie, sneaking is 99% better than brute force in my book).

As far as quickening for your teammates (very nice of you to donate Karma to them, BTW), I'd say they're probably SOL unless they're a PhysAd, who can Mask once they Initiate.

I'll have to double-check the reading on Wards and which ones alert their creators. Reducing a ward to 1-2 of course is one way; the way I talked about above by cranking the Dispel force way up would be another since making a Ward of extremely high Force isn't very easy.
DocMortand
hmm...*hijacks topic*

Is there such a thing as ritual wards? I draw attention to the cermak blast ward that contained a tac nuke. If so, where is it described? The ritual magic section?

Doc
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (DocMortand)
Is there such a thing as ritual wards? I draw attention to the cermak blast ward that contained a tac nuke. If so, where is it described? The ritual magic section?

Standard ward creation rules. Multiple magicians can team up to build wards.
Adarael
I believe ritual wards are simply a group effort to create a ward, so as to reduce the time involved in creating one. I could be wrong, though.

QUOTE
No, the creator of *any* ward knows when the ward is attacked or destroyed (SR3 p. 176, Astral Objects).


I believe that's been changed in MiTS, but I don't have my copy at work.

QUOTE
So congratulations. You're playing with a GM who's never really read the rules in question and have been letting you get by easy.


You don't have to be bitchy about it, man. I mean, it could be that I've only actually hit a ward about four or five times in the past five years. All the other times it's been phased through.
DocMortand
Okay, but how is the power increased? having a ritual team to reduce time is a waste of time - you never build wards in a hurry in the first place, you want to increase the power so that masking people can't get in as easily.

Doc
DocMortand
QUOTE (Adarael @ Oct 19 2004, 03:43 PM)
QUOTE
No, the creator of *any* ward knows when the ward is attacked or destroyed (SR3 p. 176, Astral Objects).


I believe that's been changed in MiTS, but I don't have my copy at work.

Nope.

MitS pg. 89:
"Wards are described on p.174 of SR3. A common passive security measure, they provide barriers in astral space. Because the creator of a ward automatically knows if the ward is attacked in astral combat, wards provide a useful means of detecting astral intruders."

That should settle that.

Actually the nasty ward to use against maskers is the Masking Ward - only Initiates with masking can see it, and they must penetrate it to see the ward itself, and unless it is penetrated it cannot be fooled by synchronization of auras.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (DocMortand @ Oct 19 2004, 02:46 PM)
Okay, but how is the power increased?  having a ritual team to reduce time is a waste of time - you never build wards in a hurry in the first place, you want to increase the power so that masking people can't get in as easily.

They can create a ward with a Force equal to their combined Magic rating.

QUOTE (Adarael)
I believe that's been changed in MiTS, but I don't have my copy at work.

No it hasn't. As mentioned above, alarm wards are special wards that alert their creator under one specific condition (when anyone passes through it). All wards, including alarm wards, alert their creator when attacked or destroyed. Both can be bypassed by synchronizing auras, which is actually a difficult prospect against a decent (Force 6) ward unless you have a high Grade (3+). At Grade 3 your chances are almost 50-50 (ties go to the barrier) against a Force 6 ward. And unless you're only breaking into low-security facilities most of the time, a Force 6 ward is on the lower end of the spectrum of the ones you should be encountering. Force 8-12 are more problematic.
LinaInverse
Bah... my GM is already plotting to foil my plans of world domination. Just shows one shouldn't plot on a public msg board... wink.gif

From what I recall though, Wards aren't permanent unless Karma is spent and have a limit to how much of an area they can protect (ie, I don't think a single mage can protect several city blocks). So any place that has very powerful wards constantly in place is going to likely be the same place that keeps a whole bunch of mages on the dole to maintain them. And as I said before, if a target has that much magical firepower, then frankly, it's not likely that a bunch of low- to middle-level runners are going to get inside anyway, wards or no wards.

Sneaking (or "synchronizing" if you prefer) past a ward shouldn't be that hard once you break past Initiate lvl 4 though, unless the wards you're talking about are getting to absurd levels, though one may have to burn a Karma to get past it though.
DocMortand
Ah, but what modifers are added when you are trying to synchronize with quickened spells tacked on?

*and thus the hijacking is neatly brought back to the topic at hand*
LinaInverse
I asked this just a few posts up. From your description, there isn't any, because you're "convincing the ward that you're just like the creator". And a creator can always pass though his own wards, Quickened spells and all.

Now, in our case, it's your campaign and if you want to do a house ruling, then that's fine w/ me. But I'm not seeing any such modifier from what you quoted.
Kanada Ten
Quickened spells will make the subject more noticeable on Astral Patrol tests.
(-1 TN per 2 Force, IIRC)

Personally, I don't like quickening spells to a person, but rather to objects since one must often interact with legal authorities and even with permits, navigating government and corporate buildings with the intent of not raising alarm or suspicion becomes much more difficult when you're lit up like a flaming xmas tress on the astral.
Adarael
QUOTE
MitS pg. 89:
"Wards are described on p.174 of SR3. A common passive security measure, they provide barriers in astral space. Because the creator of a ward automatically knows if the ward is attacked in astral combat, wards provide a useful means of detecting astral intruders."

That should settle that.

Actually the nasty ward to use against maskers is the Masking Ward.


Well, guess I'm wrong. Ahh, well - at least in terms of our error, the blade's cut both ways. I think I'm up to three lifestyles I've had to ditch due to people breaking past my wards and bugging the place.

Which is why I started tooling with Masking Wards as soon as I could. God, I love those things.

(And, for a reference point, I am now ICly initiate grade 5, and haven't encountered a ward past force 10. I may have *seen* a 12 at one point, but decided to not pry. The real advantage of Magician versus Ward? Wards can't blow Karma.)
Critias
I always figured the biggest advantage mages had over wards was that wards don't get to pick and choose when they're in good enough shape to go to the mages house and kick his ass.
Shockwave_IIc
QUOTE (Critias)
I always figured the biggest advantage mages had over wards was that wards don't get to pick and choose when they're in good enough shape to go to the mages house and kick his ass.

rotfl.gif
Adarael
Well, yes. We can't overlook that.

Oh, and wards can't pack heat, either.
DocMortand
Of course wards pack heat: the people who cast the ward, and guards of said mages.
Adarael
Wards, in and of themselves, do not pack heat. I believe that what you mean to say, Doc, is that the heat packs wards. To say that the wards pack heat because they alert their creators is akin to saying that the secuity system on a building has guns, because it calls police. Rather, its' successful operation will eventually produce guns, but this does not imply that the system itself owns the guns.

Unless, of course, someone has some sort of magical autocall system that works like...
IF (Ward Attacked)
THEN (Call Elemental)
THEN (Order elemental to burn attackers-of-ward)
ELSE (Scream like a bitch.)
LinaInverse
What it comes down to is this. From what I gather, people are in basic agreement that Quickening's biggest obstacle are Wards and opposing mages attempting to dispel the spells, and thus wasting Karma.

My feeling is that, to counter those disadvantages, if you ignore Quickening, you lose a lot of potential power. Like Foci, it's a tool in the toolbox for mages, with advantages and disadvantages.

It's true that breaching Wards can bring the heat down on the runners, but honestly, any secure site worth its salt is going to have other security assets anyway. Bypassing the Wards won't do squat on bypassing the cameras, motion/metal detectors, pressure pads, etc. And I say again, if a location is maintaining double-digit Force Wards round the clock, then they're guaranteed to have an entire posse of mages onsite at all times because of the transient nature and limited area of Wards, and frankly such a site is probably unbreachable by all but the most powerful runners anyway.
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