Seattle is a big city with lots of people. People who probably shouldn't be there. Consider everything that happend just before the Awakining and after. All the war, riots, VITAS, natural and unnatural disasters, etc. The world population would have to take a pretty big dip. Still probably in the billions but more like 3 to 4 billion instead of 6. And if I remember right big cities got hit the hardest. Shouldn't the big cities be, well, empty or nearly so?
Also another thought comes to mind. How do small towns, say towns with pop. under 5k handle some of the awakend animals that roam the contryside?
Full Version: World Population
Not really. Remember, when NAN was created, they shifted the "Whites" off Tribal lands. They had to go somewhere- so the cities of SR are probably massively over-crowded...
The western cities, anyway. But yeah, all the "whites" (probably anyone who couldn't scrape up (or invent) at least a NA great-grandmother) were pushed east into UCAS and west into the citystates.
The single biggest setback to population growth were the VITAS plagues which collectively killed of about 30% of the overall world population (higher in Developing countries lower in others) in 2010 and 2021. Even if eliminate a further 10% due to AIDS as current day predictions indicate. Its a 40% setback by the early twenties concentrated in Third World and Developing nations.
Though the Sixth World has had numerous conflicts few have been on the scale where millions would die (the only type of number that would really make a dent in the figures), possibly the two EuroWars and the Second Korean War, but that's about it.
And after that there's been close to 40 years of normal population growth. Assuming growth figures similar to the last 40 years, 2063 should have between 90% to 100% of RL population figures, dropping to 70%-100% in Developing areas of the globe.
Though the Sixth World has had numerous conflicts few have been on the scale where millions would die (the only type of number that would really make a dent in the figures), possibly the two EuroWars and the Second Korean War, but that's about it.
And after that there's been close to 40 years of normal population growth. Assuming growth figures similar to the last 40 years, 2063 should have between 90% to 100% of RL population figures, dropping to 70%-100% in Developing areas of the globe.
| QUOTE (Synner) |
| Assuming growth figures similar to the last 40 years, 2063 should have between 90% to 100% of RL population figures, dropping to 70%-100% in Developing areas of the globe. |
And this is when you know you take the game rather seriously.
Actually somebody (sorry can't remember who) sent me an Excel sheet with the full WHO (World Health Organization) and UNICEF population stats and predictions over the next 50 years for 50 different countries (mostly European), to which he added variable stats (which you could adjust) for the big setbacks like VITAS I and II, EuroWars, natural and environmental disasters and even a fluctuating variable to simulate local trends. My numbers above are based on those figures, not my own calculations.
Thanks whoever you were.
Thanks whoever you were.
Wasn't NMath was it? It certainly sounds.... dedicated enough to be. 
Not to remember the fact that both orcs and trolls have plenty of children, or where did you think that "breeder" came from?
Cities today are larger than they ever have been. I can tell you that right now there are at least 20 cities on earth wiht more than 10,000,000 people. Well, what about the fact that there are less people on earth. Well, I would point out that the size of cities from faster than the number of people.
In the end I see it this was, in 2063 there are ~6,000,000,000 but even more people live in cities. As in cities like LA that has 11,000,000 could be at ~15-20,000,000.
But in the end, one of the big themes in cyberpunk worlds is that the cities are huge,and may as well be nations onto themsleves.
In the end I see it this was, in 2063 there are ~6,000,000,000 but even more people live in cities. As in cities like LA that has 11,000,000 could be at ~15-20,000,000.
But in the end, one of the big themes in cyberpunk worlds is that the cities are huge,and may as well be nations onto themsleves.
| QUOTE (Sepherim) |
| Not to remember the fact that both orcs and trolls have plenty of children, or where did you think that "breeder" came from? |
"Breeder" is a term some goblinized use to refer to normals. Both (orc and troll) are referred to as "trogs" by some normals.
Wordman's The Sixth World website lists the world population. There's plenty to go around. As for the population of Seattle, it is an are about twice as big as the island of Montreal here, with anout half the people. So Seattle is NOT crowded.
Don't forget the arcologies and the like; if you laid one out flat, I'm sure it'd be bigger than the city it's in (like the Renraku Arcology, for example). I think there're at least five of these in every continent...I think.
Sure, the cities are more crowded, but there's apparently a lot more room per square kilometer, right?
Sure, the cities are more crowded, but there's apparently a lot more room per square kilometer, right?
| QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm) | ||
"Breeder" is a term some goblinized use to refer to normals. Both (orc and troll) are referred to as "trogs" by some normals. |
Then I guess I got the terms mixed up. Thanx.
Anyway, remember that in shadowrun, plexes have taken the place of cities, and plexes are usually the mixture of several cities together. IIRC, Redmon is a separate city from Seattle today, but just a district in 63, or something like that.
Actually, as it has most likely been mentioned before, the most flimsy piece of the Shadowrun plotline is the extent of the Native American Nations. I mean, let's be honest. Even before VITAS you'll be able to fit all those Native American descendents AND their grandmothers into New York and still have enough room to swing a great dragon in. The only way to justify the strength of the NAN is to assume a lot of them 'overlooked' some people's descent...otherwise, it just don't work. I don't care how powerful that crazy 'ol Ghostdance was, it's not going to protect 2 million (pre-VITAS) people against their 280 million (pre-VITAS) pissed-off neighbors.
Don't forget to account for all of the people who exist outside of the system. I'd be willing to bet that the world's population is a good amount higher than government estimates say, and that could probably be worse in SR's dystopic world.
Having large diseases, plagues, and wars are a theme in near-future sci-fi to avoid dating the material. If you say there's five billion people on the planet in a book set in 2050 in the year 1989 when there were only four billion, then in 2003 we have something like 6.2 billion, you've just dated yourself unless you can explain the large discrepencies. Same with the major cities getting hit the worst by it. That way if they quote 4 million for Houston and for some reason Houston becomes a boom town (again) and the population rises to 6 million, they have a good plot reason to explain the discrepency. But for the most part, the population figures in the sixth world are going to be about the same as ours, with VITAS and the various wars, plus the manner in which the corporations treat human life leveling out the population growth.
And with the Ghost Dance, it's pretty plausible that the rest of the country would just sit back and let them take their land back. Magic was still new at the time, so people didn't understand what exactly it was all capable of. Therefore, when the GGD happened, they got super-panicky about what else they could do. Let's use WWII as an example. The Japanese terms of surrender were unconditional. And we took advantage of that by disbanding their military and leaving them unable to launch any sort of attack again. We forced them to re-write their constitution and their government. Why would any sane country accept that sort of heavy-handed meddling? Because we sent Fat Man and Little Boy to visit a couple of Japanese cities. We scared the piss out of them, and they SURE weren't going to risk us sending any more of our little friends by making demands on their surrender.
The Abstruse One
And with the Ghost Dance, it's pretty plausible that the rest of the country would just sit back and let them take their land back. Magic was still new at the time, so people didn't understand what exactly it was all capable of. Therefore, when the GGD happened, they got super-panicky about what else they could do. Let's use WWII as an example. The Japanese terms of surrender were unconditional. And we took advantage of that by disbanding their military and leaving them unable to launch any sort of attack again. We forced them to re-write their constitution and their government. Why would any sane country accept that sort of heavy-handed meddling? Because we sent Fat Man and Little Boy to visit a couple of Japanese cities. We scared the piss out of them, and they SURE weren't going to risk us sending any more of our little friends by making demands on their surrender.
The Abstruse One
Strictly speaking, however, that was after we had reduced their military to shambles. It was inevitable that they would be taken over....it was merely that the atomic bomb shook their resolve to fight to the death. A combination of the facts that A.) They would be bombed out of existance, not even able to see their enemy and B.) The fact that the leaders balked at such a massive loss at life are what made them cave in, not the use of a revolutionary new bomb. I imagine the United States, even of the desolate future, would have enough to take down these uppity Native Americans.
Also, imagine the following: a small group of people seize some kind of insane new 'magic power' and threaten to use it if they don't get to carve out pieces of your country. You don't know what it is, but you do know that they killed 'ol Uncle Jim and if they get to make their own country, who knows where they'll hit next? You would think that there would be a public outcry against this sort of thing...
However, the argument that things were just so fragged up that the President said, "Well, screw it, give 'em the Midwest, nobody uses it anyways" is fairly valid...I just like screaming, "No! There aren't enough people in the NAN! It MAKES NO SENSE!"
Also, imagine the following: a small group of people seize some kind of insane new 'magic power' and threaten to use it if they don't get to carve out pieces of your country. You don't know what it is, but you do know that they killed 'ol Uncle Jim and if they get to make their own country, who knows where they'll hit next? You would think that there would be a public outcry against this sort of thing...
However, the argument that things were just so fragged up that the President said, "Well, screw it, give 'em the Midwest, nobody uses it anyways" is fairly valid...I just like screaming, "No! There aren't enough people in the NAN! It MAKES NO SENSE!"
| QUOTE (Gyro the Greek Sandwich Pirate) |
| Actually, as it has most likely been mentioned before, the most flimsy piece of the Shadowrun plotline is the extent of the Native American Nations. I mean, let's be honest. Even before VITAS you'll be able to fit all those Native American descendents AND their grandmothers into New York and still have enough room to swing a great dragon in. The only way to justify the strength of the NAN is to assume a lot of them 'overlooked' some people's descent...otherwise, it just don't work. I don't care how powerful that crazy 'ol Ghostdance was, it's not going to protect 2 million (pre-VITAS) people against their 280 million (pre-VITAS) pissed-off neighbors. |
Well, Shadows of North America mentions that several of the bigger NAN allowed hispanics, because technically they have Amerind blood. That could give a major
boost to the populations.
As for the war, I would think that volcanoes and tornadoes aren't particularly precise weapons. But I suppose they _were_ magically guided. The UCAS never really got a chance to bring it's overwhelming firepower to bear, as the Amerinds didn't engage in formal warfare. Nature spirits could make a big difference. Imagine a guerilla war where the insurgents have tactical and strategic weapons that you can't identify, locate, or even understand. And then what do you do when those guerrillas seize control over missle subs and silos?
The UCAS was screwed. (Actually, it was still the US back then, wasn't it?)
Uhm, the various SONA authors went out of their way to try and explain that bit of funky ass canon. There was even an entire section in the NAN overview talking about it, trying to make it a bit less ridiculous.
However, the bottom line is that we're "stuck with it" in canon. It should be pretty obvious with even the most casual review that the SR timeline differed from our own LONG before (like decades, at the most optimistic) the infamous Seretech decision. If anything, that is even less probable then a ragtag bunch of American Indians rising up against the White Man and kicking their ass with barely developed magic.
I used to feel pretty strongly about this issue, but we all did our best to try and make it more palatable. So maybe we should spend our energies on more important things -- like the ridiculousness of Sparky IC and powering cybernetics with your body.
However, the bottom line is that we're "stuck with it" in canon. It should be pretty obvious with even the most casual review that the SR timeline differed from our own LONG before (like decades, at the most optimistic) the infamous Seretech decision. If anything, that is even less probable then a ragtag bunch of American Indians rising up against the White Man and kicking their ass with barely developed magic.
I used to feel pretty strongly about this issue, but we all did our best to try and make it more palatable. So maybe we should spend our energies on more important things -- like the ridiculousness of Sparky IC and powering cybernetics with your body.
Meanwhile back on topic... I'll buy that the cities aren't underpopulated. I think, however that 'plexes would then be the rule and not the exception. Small town America would have ceased to exist. Cannon would have us believing other wise, though. Not just from low population, admittedly not as devastated as 3rd world countries, but from their inability to maintain security. See my original post.
As for NAN. OK, they might have been able to get started with the military et. al. off guard, but how long would they have lasted. Not only would the magic playing field be level (or nearly so) but they would still be facing the over whelming military might of the US/UCAS.
As for NAN. OK, they might have been able to get started with the military et. al. off guard, but how long would they have lasted. Not only would the magic playing field be level (or nearly so) but they would still be facing the over whelming military might of the US/UCAS.
| QUOTE (Lantzer) |
| Imagine a guerilla war where the insurgents have tactical and strategic weapons that you can't identify, locate, or even understand. |
A guerrilla war where the insurgents are outnumbered over a hundred to one, have no resources or popular support, are operating amongst a heavily armed hostile population, and where their secret weapon is available to 1% of the population, on both sides (see "outnumbered over a hundred to one" and do the math)...
I could postulate situations where a Native-led revolt against the federal government could succeed, but none of them start with them so bereft of popular support that they could get crammed into concentration camps without raising public outcry, and none of them end with them expelling all of the non-Native population from a third of the country.
| QUOTE |
| A guerrilla war where the insurgents are outnumbered over a hundred to one, have no resources or popular support |
Actually its even worse, North Am Indian populations have stabilized but the figures are pretty low.
| QUOTE |
| are operating amongst a heavily armed hostile population, |
Not really, even if the all the NRA gun fanatics, survivalist and paramilitaries crazos joined with the military to hunt them down the USA and Canada are HUGE. Making use of this aided by magic Concealment and protected by spirits and sorcery that the americans have no defense against (read below) while constantly moving around makes it more than plausible.
| QUOTE |
| and where their secret weapon is available to 1% of the population, on both sides (see "outnumbered over a hundred to one" and do the math)... |
This is the big mistake in your reasoning (and many other people's too) and the flaw that the NAN exploited. Timing is everything.
This is happening right after the Awakening. While 1% of the population has Magic Potential, active magic use requires knowledge of thaumaturgy (Sorcery and Conjuring if you will) and that's what separates the Native Americans and the US. The shamans were prepared for the Awakening (see when they broke out of the concentration camps?) with high level magic. They had been taught and prepared by Daniel Howling Coyote (or someone else). The US had nothing to go by, it has no research into thaumaturgy, no magic users and no one to teach them if they had (most Universities only began teaching thaumaturgy almost 10 years later). There were a lot more Americans with magical potential than indians but nobody knew how to use it. The NAN had that edge (as did the IRA in Irland/TNO and the Tibetans) and kept it for a very long time. Essentially the magical equivalent of an atom bomb plus the knowledge that the adversary doesn't have the skills to build a defense.
The Awakening happens. Imagine you are a US serviceman with magical potential. It takes a couple of weeks for the Army scrambles to figure out that this Magic thing actually exists and is controlable. Then it starts to investigate it and its effects, which takes at least a six months. They actually figure out how to identify magical potential and start looking for magic-capable soldiers and actively recruiting the magic-capable civilians. So what do they do now? What do they teach them? Hermeticism is some obscure mysto-magical tradition - most people will erroneously associate with Crowley, Satanism or Dark Ages mysticism - that the few flakes who practice it are starting to figure out really works after the Awakening. It'll be years before Hermeticism is accepted and knowledge of Hermetic sorcery and conjuring begins to be taught. Somehow I don't see many shamans popping up amongst the American faction and even then those still have to learn to use their abilities (and they'd probably have to use Native American rites and rituals to boot).
So what good is a 1% population of magic users who don't know how to use magic?
Well, I agree that the whole Ghost Dance War is at best implausible, but I think they have done a lot recently (most notably in SoNA) to make it more palatable at least (something I applaud the more recent authors for). Also, it becomes more plausible if you assume that the whole concentration camp thing was not as easily accepted by the American public, especially those in the West, as the main timeline seems to indicate. If you assume that the government, with the help of large corporations, did it for "national security" purposes, squished any dissent, and that there was in fact a lot of sympathetic people in the less-populated states in the West, you might be able to get away with claiming that the Native Americans could get away with it.
There are hints that this might be the case in SoNA; Salt Lake City is a Mormon stronghold still because the Mormons were evidently big sympathizers, and I can see a lot of the "government's gonna come take my guns away" people seeing the government's actions as confirmation of their worst fears, so they slip help to the Amerinds, plus I imagine there are a lot of people who just don't like what the government is doing. Maybe they don't slip the Amerinds assault rifles and main battle tanks, but they don't report things like a couple Amerinds holed up in their barn, they seem to accept that there are a lot of "wild animals" taking things from their fields and gardens and livestock, and generally give the movement support without directly aiding them. And, once the war is over, a lot of these people stay in the Amerind territories with the blessing of people who remember their kindness.
Now, I'm not saying this is a perfect explanation -- the Ghost Dance War is still mighty close to the redline on the suspension-of-disbelief-meter, but it certainly makes things more possible. In the campaign I'm running now, I am using the modified Shadowrun timeline I came up with a while ago which doesn't have the Ghost Dance War, but after reading SoNA, I could definitely see using the default Shadowrun timeline with just a few very minor tweaks.
There are hints that this might be the case in SoNA; Salt Lake City is a Mormon stronghold still because the Mormons were evidently big sympathizers, and I can see a lot of the "government's gonna come take my guns away" people seeing the government's actions as confirmation of their worst fears, so they slip help to the Amerinds, plus I imagine there are a lot of people who just don't like what the government is doing. Maybe they don't slip the Amerinds assault rifles and main battle tanks, but they don't report things like a couple Amerinds holed up in their barn, they seem to accept that there are a lot of "wild animals" taking things from their fields and gardens and livestock, and generally give the movement support without directly aiding them. And, once the war is over, a lot of these people stay in the Amerind territories with the blessing of people who remember their kindness.
Now, I'm not saying this is a perfect explanation -- the Ghost Dance War is still mighty close to the redline on the suspension-of-disbelief-meter, but it certainly makes things more possible. In the campaign I'm running now, I am using the modified Shadowrun timeline I came up with a while ago which doesn't have the Ghost Dance War, but after reading SoNA, I could definitely see using the default Shadowrun timeline with just a few very minor tweaks.
| QUOTE (Synner) |
| Actually somebody (sorry can't remember who) sent me an Excel sheet with the full WHO (World Health Organization) and UNICEF population stats and predictions over the next 50 years for 50 different countries (mostly European), to which he added variable stats (which you could adjust) for the big setbacks like VITAS I and II, EuroWars, natural and environmental disasters and even a fluctuating variable to simulate local trends. My numbers above are based on those figures, not my own calculations. Thanks whoever you were. |
That was me. Demographics is a hobby I could suddenly apply to Shadowrun. Not that all variables can be factored in (what would the fertility rate of trolls be?), but it was a quick attempt.
All in all the Shadowrun numbers for NAN and most of Europe are pretty ridiculous given current trends, but trends do change. Given a VITAS scenario where 30% of the world population dies (that's 2,000 *million* people, folks; the corpses alone would choke most of the world), the SR world should be massively different from the way it is, but this is why it's called a future fantasy.
Thanos, if you wanna talk more realistic demographics, lemme know.
And don't even get me started on ethnicity projections...
I don't speak for the other SoNA authors, but in the back of my mind I was sort of assuming that there was a significant amount of public SUPPORT for the Native American movement. The Shadowrun America of that period was SCREWED. I mean seriously, even the most blue-blooded patriot would have to agree that something was rotten in Denmark (or Washington DC). The Constitution might as well no longer exist (Seretech decision), corporations are running rampant, widespread food shortages, major urban centers are on the short road to hell, economic collapse of biblical proportions, cats and dogs living together, etc.
Ok, so it's not entirely plausible -- especially with the amazing levels of racism and bigotry that the canon says existed. But the simple FACT is that there is NO way that the NAN could have the population figures listed in the old books without grandfathing some (or even all) of the local population into their rolls. That is, unless they also had magical cloning to go with their amazing "beats 2065 magic" techniques.
It's worth keeping in mind that by the rules, magic is not the END ALL of a conflict between it and tech. Even if the Amerinds were 10 years ahead in EVERY SINGLE magical area of knowledge they would have very very few Initiates (probably only those directly under the tutelage of Howling Coyote and his "helpers") and many of the k00l spells Shadowrunners take for granted simply would not exist. Assuming they can somehow whip up some pretty good nature spirits they are probably limited to Force 6 or so. that's great for Concealment but they can't have won the fights just based on that (especially against Sensor Enhanced Gunnery), any mor then Shadowrunners get a free pass against corporate gunshipsor the cops if they use it.
Ok, so it's not entirely plausible -- especially with the amazing levels of racism and bigotry that the canon says existed. But the simple FACT is that there is NO way that the NAN could have the population figures listed in the old books without grandfathing some (or even all) of the local population into their rolls. That is, unless they also had magical cloning to go with their amazing "beats 2065 magic" techniques.
It's worth keeping in mind that by the rules, magic is not the END ALL of a conflict between it and tech. Even if the Amerinds were 10 years ahead in EVERY SINGLE magical area of knowledge they would have very very few Initiates (probably only those directly under the tutelage of Howling Coyote and his "helpers") and many of the k00l spells Shadowrunners take for granted simply would not exist. Assuming they can somehow whip up some pretty good nature spirits they are probably limited to Force 6 or so. that's great for Concealment but they can't have won the fights just based on that (especially against Sensor Enhanced Gunnery), any mor then Shadowrunners get a free pass against corporate gunshipsor the cops if they use it.
I've always assumed that in the world of Shadowrun there was on an order of magnitude more Native Americans to begin with. Its worked fine for me
Not to mention the fact that the GGD was powered by Immortal Elf magic and knowledge and it all falls into place and makes sense. Since the IE's wanted it that way, of course it happened. While they were teaching the Indians how to do the GGD they were lobbying Washington to let the Indian's have most of North America.
It all makes sense when you think about it like that!
It all makes sense when you think about it like that!
Except of course that the IEs weren't teaching the GGD - the Aztlan sourcebook suggests it caught many of them by surprise, and at least some of them felt that Daniel Howling Coyote should have been killed. (Reason seems to be its side effect of the sudden mana rise.) I have the impression most of them would have been perfectly happy with a Native independence movement ... preferably with many more of the natives as martyrs to the cause. (At least one native nation was completely killed off in the process as it was.)
Well, maybe theIE's weren't there, but whoe knows what rules do Totems follow?
Actually is was the bastard offspring of Aina, an immortal elf, and a horror called Ysrthgrathe that was from ED times. The poor bastard turned outlooking like a complete freak and in modern times liked to live like a hermit and hang around the less advanced/tribal groups since they often treated as a kind of manifested semi-deity whenever he turned up.
He taught Wovoka the rituals in the late 1800's which led to the first Ghost Dance. Of course the magic levels were too low, he'd misscalculated, so the ritual didn't work and the native americans were promptly slaughtered.
Of course, this raises some questions. During Shadowrun's timeline, when all the native americans were being rounded up they had a lot of their cultural records destroyed. So how'd they remember the ritual? Through oral traditions passed down or did someone, Thais perhaps or another immortal elf, interfere again? We know they were mucking about with the movement through the Walter Brightwater/Ehran Tir Tairngire fiasco.
He taught Wovoka the rituals in the late 1800's which led to the first Ghost Dance. Of course the magic levels were too low, he'd misscalculated, so the ritual didn't work and the native americans were promptly slaughtered.
Of course, this raises some questions. During Shadowrun's timeline, when all the native americans were being rounded up they had a lot of their cultural records destroyed. So how'd they remember the ritual? Through oral traditions passed down or did someone, Thais perhaps or another immortal elf, interfere again? We know they were mucking about with the movement through the Walter Brightwater/Ehran Tir Tairngire fiasco.
Is this canon? Source?
The novel 'Worlds Without End' by Caroline Spectre.
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