Grounding
What was it
There was just along thread which involved an argument about grounding foci apparently from SR2. for the benefit of those of us that where not blessed to be introduced to SR so early could somebody explain WTF it was and what issues it had.
Edward
Full Version: Grounding
Well it used to be that the one way pane of glass in the astral plane had a lot of little cracks. Any dual natured being, astrally assensing mage, or foci formed a perfect conduit for an astrally projecting mage to cast a spell into the physical plane. Now mind you the spell had to be physical (PowerBall is a good example) for it to reach the physical plane. This made spell lock (the old version of sustaining foci) dangerous to carry, as back then they were the equivalnet of a Force 1 focus and thus infineitely breakable.
Those were the good old days when magicians would hesitate sneaking astrally beacuse you never knew back then if by standing near the physical body of your pal wouldn't mean getting blasted by a nice Fireball grounding through the astral form then meat even if your buddy was kilometers away in the astral...I must confess I miss this metaphysical law...
2 explanations and I am more confused than when I started.
I’m glad its gone.
Edward
I’m glad its gone.
Edward
Sorry Ed...didn't mean to confuse anyone...
It's exactly the same explanation Lorthazar gave you...any astral form having a physical counterpart (Astrally projecting/perceiving creature, dual creature, active focus, spirit in manifest form) could be the target of a Physical spell cast from astral space. If the spell managed to overcome the defense of the astral part of the target, then it would ground and take effect on the physical plane. It could be either a single target spell or even an area spell, in which case the area effect was centered on the initial target. Hence my example of the danger of astral spying...
Say your team mage is going on recon of the corp R&D center 500 m away from the runners' van. If a corp sec mage spots the magician astral form and pumps a heavy-duty fireball spell into out mage, the fireball could take effect centred on the unconscious body uin the van and toast his runner pals...
Back then, carryong a pell Lock was quite risky....
It's exactly the same explanation Lorthazar gave you...any astral form having a physical counterpart (Astrally projecting/perceiving creature, dual creature, active focus, spirit in manifest form) could be the target of a Physical spell cast from astral space. If the spell managed to overcome the defense of the astral part of the target, then it would ground and take effect on the physical plane. It could be either a single target spell or even an area spell, in which case the area effect was centered on the initial target. Hence my example of the danger of astral spying...
Say your team mage is going on recon of the corp R&D center 500 m away from the runners' van. If a corp sec mage spots the magician astral form and pumps a heavy-duty fireball spell into out mage, the fireball could take effect centred on the unconscious body uin the van and toast his runner pals...
Back then, carryong a pell Lock was quite risky....
Let me try this again.
Right now in 3rd Edition it is impossible for an astral projecting mage to cast a spell into the 'real' world. They can strike at dual natured beings, astral beings, astrally perceiving beings, wards, and foci, but have no hope of affecting a mundane at all from the astral. Now this makes mages more and less powerful. More powerful becuase they are more likely to perform astral recon, less becuase there is no way for an astral mage to help his buddies against a host of problems.
In 2nd edition it was still impossible to target mundane objects from the Astral plane. However you could cause some spell to skip into physical reality by using a natural conduit: Dual nature being, astral assensing mage/adept, hermetc circle, medicine lodge, and/or foci. Now this had the effect of making it dangerous to carry active foci, becuase you never know when some astral mage was going to decide to teach you a lesson.
The way it worked was the spellcaster would whip up a PowerBall, FireBall, BallLightning, Toxic Wave, Chaotic World, or whatever area effect physical spell was his particular favorite and send it into the conduit. Now the conduit of course got a chance to resist the spell, but if they couldn't generate more successes than the attacker the spell erupted on the physical plane with the conduit being the center of the affect.
If you can find someone with a copy of the old supplement Awakenings they actually got into a great deal of info from both player and character presective on this.
Right now in 3rd Edition it is impossible for an astral projecting mage to cast a spell into the 'real' world. They can strike at dual natured beings, astral beings, astrally perceiving beings, wards, and foci, but have no hope of affecting a mundane at all from the astral. Now this makes mages more and less powerful. More powerful becuase they are more likely to perform astral recon, less becuase there is no way for an astral mage to help his buddies against a host of problems.
In 2nd edition it was still impossible to target mundane objects from the Astral plane. However you could cause some spell to skip into physical reality by using a natural conduit: Dual nature being, astral assensing mage/adept, hermetc circle, medicine lodge, and/or foci. Now this had the effect of making it dangerous to carry active foci, becuase you never know when some astral mage was going to decide to teach you a lesson.
The way it worked was the spellcaster would whip up a PowerBall, FireBall, BallLightning, Toxic Wave, Chaotic World, or whatever area effect physical spell was his particular favorite and send it into the conduit. Now the conduit of course got a chance to resist the spell, but if they couldn't generate more successes than the attacker the spell erupted on the physical plane with the conduit being the center of the affect.
If you can find someone with a copy of the old supplement Awakenings they actually got into a great deal of info from both player and character presective on this.
huh? I missed this while reading sr3..
so now sustaining foci are 100% safe? no nasty paracritters or astral mages having fun with them ? no need to mask them or switch them off when not needed?
does this mean now every mage who can afford them walks around with 6 sustaining foci?
DS
so now sustaining foci are 100% safe? no nasty paracritters or astral mages having fun with them ? no need to mask them or switch them off when not needed?
does this mean now every mage who can afford them walks around with 6 sustaining foci?
DS
I was never really married to grounding. I don't view it as an essential game mechanic that they screwed up by taking out. Most people were happy to see it go. I don't think it was a game-breaker either way: the system worked with it, the system worked without it. The only real difference was you had to consider different things. People used foci, spirits, and astral space differently when Grounding was the way the world worked.
My problem with taking it out is in the last sentence of that paragraph, specifically, "...the way the world worked." Grounding was a part of the accepted reality of the shadowrun universe, everybody basically understood concept. Even non-magical characters knew it. Nobody wanted to stand next to the guy with the spell-lock, he was like the guy with the flamethrower.
I didn't like that one day, people woke up and Grounding was gone. Like some free spirit had filed a grievence in the Metaplane of Law and got an injunction against cross-planar spell effects (which, come to think of it, would have at least bothered to explain it).
My problem with taking it out is in the last sentence of that paragraph, specifically, "...the way the world worked." Grounding was a part of the accepted reality of the shadowrun universe, everybody basically understood concept. Even non-magical characters knew it. Nobody wanted to stand next to the guy with the spell-lock, he was like the guy with the flamethrower.
I didn't like that one day, people woke up and Grounding was gone. Like some free spirit had filed a grievence in the Metaplane of Law and got an injunction against cross-planar spell effects (which, come to think of it, would have at least bothered to explain it).
only if he wants focus addiction
| QUOTE (DarkShade) |
| huh? I missed this while reading sr3.. so now sustaining foci are 100% safe? no nasty paracritters or astral mages having fun with them ? no need to mask them or switch them off when not needed? does this mean now every mage who can afford them walks around with 6 sustaining foci? DS |
Foci are much safer than they were in SR2, but not risk free. Currently, the risks are:
1) Foci Addition - Go over 2x magic score and you risk magic loss.
2) Wards - Active foci are blocked by Wards. Either need to use Masking to get past them or blow them down. If the foci is significantly more powerful than the Ward, then the foci itself might rip the ward down, but either way, the ward's owner knows about it.
3) Legality - Anything >3 Force is illegal w/o registration. I personally don't think it's a big deal, since most equipment/cyberwear/etc shadowrunners use tends to be illegal, so it's just one more thing to avoid showing near a Lone Star HQ.
4) Astral attack - an active foci can be attacked from an astral mage or spirit. Such an attack immediately lets the owner know (and presumably, the owner will defend it). FWIW, a foci will fight back if attacked. If the foci itself is very powerful, then this is less a concern than if the foci is low level (and easily destroyed).
1 High rating foci are still illegal
2 High rating foci still cause focus addiction
3 Astral thingys can still destroy your high rating foci
4 New (more in depth) warding rules make unmasked foci an occasional liability
[edit]
crap, too slow
[/edit[
2 High rating foci still cause focus addiction
3 Astral thingys can still destroy your high rating foci
4 New (more in depth) warding rules make unmasked foci an occasional liability
[edit]
crap, too slow
[/edit[
nitpick: the singular of foci is focus 
I, too, am a bit irked that grounding is gone. If you read the old "Awakenings" supplement, grounding was at the heart of 80% of the mage on mage combat tactics at the time. Pumping a fireball or flamebolt spell through the other guy's spell lock or weapon focus was the easiest way to wipe out the other team's mage with minimum grief.
Of course, it'd be a simple rules hack to stick it back in.
I, too, am a bit irked that grounding is gone. If you read the old "Awakenings" supplement, grounding was at the heart of 80% of the mage on mage combat tactics at the time. Pumping a fireball or flamebolt spell through the other guy's spell lock or weapon focus was the easiest way to wipe out the other team's mage with minimum grief.
Of course, it'd be a simple rules hack to stick it back in.
| QUOTE (Crusher Bob) |
| 3 Astral thingys can still destroy your high rating foci |
Agree w/ the others, but high rating foci are actually less likely to be destroyed than low rating since foci will fight back. A low rating foci is a tempting target when an enemy wants to quickly weaken his opposition, but going after a high rating foci is actually dangerous and time-consuming to take down. If the foci is really powerful (ie, >8 or so), then it's usually just easier to kill the owner than go after a dangerous astral opponent like that.
Can't you still target them with spells?
So the meatbod mage has to either let you blast his focus all day until it breaks, turn it off, or try to fight you off by going astral himself...
So the meatbod mage has to either let you blast his focus all day until it breaks, turn it off, or try to fight you off by going astral himself...
...And don't forget, those of you with Threats 2, Imps.
-JH.
-JH.
Assuming the foci are active, yes, someone can target them. And the owner can switch on Astral Perception to help defend it.
But my point was if the foci are very powerful, then going after them is actually risky to the person attacking them as well. The foci will fight back and unless the attacking mage is really powerful, he may find himself on the short end of the stick when comparing astral melee successes.
Also consider this: If a foci is Rating 9 (or higher!) and the owner's Willpower is 6 (or God help him, Body 3), then which is the easier target? Why would an enemy mage go after the very difficult target when the soft, squishy center is a much easier one?
But my point was if the foci are very powerful, then going after them is actually risky to the person attacking them as well. The foci will fight back and unless the attacking mage is really powerful, he may find himself on the short end of the stick when comparing astral melee successes.
Also consider this: If a foci is Rating 9 (or higher!) and the owner's Willpower is 6 (or God help him, Body 3), then which is the easier target? Why would an enemy mage go after the very difficult target when the soft, squishy center is a much easier one?
Here's some quotes. I'll skip most of the fluff.
| QUOTE (SR2 @ p. 139) |
| A focus, by virtue of its nature, creates a pathway between the two realms. |
The two realms, of course, being Physical and Astral Space.
| QUOTE (SR2 @ p. 139) |
| Through this channel, an astrally present magician can cast a spell at the focus' physical component. Because the spell is affecting the physical materials of the focus, the spell must be a physical type. Though it may seem that only the focus itself can be affected in this manner, this is not completely true. If the astrally projecting magician were to cast an area-effect spell cenetered on the focus, it would be possible tohit all targets within the spell's effect area.[...] [...] The attacking magician rolls a number of dice... |
Remember, SR2 used Force and not Sorcery for casting a spell. Silly, huh?
| QUOTE (SR2 @ p. 139) |
| ...equal to the Force Rating of the spell against a target number equal to the rating of the focus. At the same time te defender rolls a number of dice equal to the rating of the focus against a target number equal to the Force of the spell. The side that generates more successes defeats the other. If the spell wins, the spell focus bonding is broken. This renders the focus useless, and the spell grounds into the physical material of the focus. If the focus wins, the attacking spell does not ground into it, and dissipates. Remember that the attacking spell must be a physical spell to work in this manner. If the spell is not an area-effect spell, it only affects the target that is either in possession of the focus or else directly connected to it.[...] If the spell is an area-effect spell, the only difference from resolving it in the normal manner is that line-of-sight is determined from the spellcaster's position in astral space. The requirement still holds that the spellcaster must be able to see the target.[...] |
Just glanced through Awakenings as well... Only a quite near-mention of grounding, but nothing else.
well it made a bit more sense to use force rather then sorcery as sorcery is damn easy to get growing 
/puts on grumpy old man hat
That was the way it was and we liked it!!!!
And just for the record Awakenings is that "old."
/edit/
I meant NOT that "old"
That was the way it was and we liked it!!!!
And just for the record Awakenings is that "old."
/edit/
I meant NOT that "old"
What was sorcery used for in SR2
Edward
Edward
Basic spellcasting.
Force was only used as dice in breaking foci and such things. Make sense as power would be more of a factor than skill in such a case.
Force was only used as dice in breaking foci and such things. Make sense as power would be more of a factor than skill in such a case.
I never quite understood why they didn't just incorporate Force into the spellcasting process. I'd have used it to influence target numbers at the very least. Using a target number of 10-Force for, say, a Manabolt makes a lot more sense than the double-whammy of using a target's Willpower and then letting them resist with Willpower (that's like using a target's Body as your base TN when shooting them). It would have also went a lot further towards insuring all spells had a direct reliance on its Force.
That would have also allowed for a lot of other creative and sensible rules, particularly in the way of dispelling, Quickening, and Foci were handled. But there's little that can be done about it now. Guess that's what happens when you just tack on or rehash a few of the rules, make liberal use of cutting-and-pasting, and then throw a new Edition label on it rather than actually strive to rebuild the game from scratch.
(In fact that's one of the very, very, very few things I admire about WotC and D&D 3e.)
That would have also allowed for a lot of other creative and sensible rules, particularly in the way of dispelling, Quickening, and Foci were handled. But there's little that can be done about it now. Guess that's what happens when you just tack on or rehash a few of the rules, make liberal use of cutting-and-pasting, and then throw a new Edition label on it rather than actually strive to rebuild the game from scratch.
(In fact that's one of the very, very, very few things I admire about WotC and D&D 3e.)
Except, 3ed Shadowrun didn't turn into a munchkin-making machine like 3ed D&D with all those prestige classes and stuff, Doc...(I also Dm D&D, by the way )
yet your arguments seem quite sound as far as Force is concerned...
)yet your arguments seem quite sound as far as Force is concerned...
| QUOTE (lorthazar) |
| Basic spellcasting. Force was only used as dice in breaking foci and such things. Make sense as power would be more of a factor than skill in such a case. |
Wrong-o.
Your Magic Pool was equal to Sorcery. Other than that... It didn't have much of an effect.
Let me sum it up:
If you cast a spell at an astral target, then it used to "ground" to the target's meatbody and detonate there. That meant you could nuke some astrally patrolling combat mage with a manaball at it would cook whomever was guarding his body since the spell would "ground" to where his physical body was.
A bit more to it here and there, but this is more or less what it was.
If you cast a spell at an astral target, then it used to "ground" to the target's meatbody and detonate there. That meant you could nuke some astrally patrolling combat mage with a manaball at it would cook whomever was guarding his body since the spell would "ground" to where his physical body was.
A bit more to it here and there, but this is more or less what it was.
| QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll) |
| ... That meant you could nuke some astrally patrolling combat mage with a manaball at it would cook whomever was guarding his body since the spell would "ground" to where his physical body was. |
Not quite, because Manaball is not a Physical spell. You would need to use something like Fireball or Chaotic World to have any affect.
Like i said more or less, it's been a while since I've used grounding. 
It's a small distinction now, but it was very important at the time.
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