How do you handle melee combat with a materialized spirit? I just want to be sure I figured it the right way...

BBB says you can use Willpower as a combat skill (with no combat pool). Does it mean that when you roll your Willpower, the spirit gets a counterattack as in regular melee combat? Pretty hard (which is the way it should be , I know). If it scores a hit, the spirit takes ( Charisma)M damage it can only resist with its Force.
Otherwise, it is regular combat with the Immunity to Normal Weapon power, combat pool dice and all that jazz, right?

For ranged combat, spirits get Armor equal to twice their Force. But how do you handle automatic fire? It seems pretty easy to blast a spirit under Force 5 if you ask me...take a Force 4 Elemental. If you blast it with an assault rifle (8M so it can inflict damage since the astral bugger got 8 pt of Immunity) firing a 6-round burst, your spirit must roll against 6D damage (14-8=6)...not much chance it can live to tell the tale...

Am I right or mistaken here?

Hardened armor and immunity is applied before increasing the damage code due to BF or FA.
Otherwise I think you've understodd everything correctly.

Thanks. Yes I know Hardened Armor doesn't take burst or auto fire into account. That's why I chose the example of an assault rifle against a Force 4 Elemental. Still, in my example, the spirit gets whacked quite easily by the regular street sam.

Not quite. Force 4 cannot be hurt by any less than 9 power unless you find some way to make it count as elemental. So a 8M AR shooting full auto would do nothing, but a single shot from an Ares Predator may work.

Yep, but the shot from the Predator will be TN 2 to soak against the spirit's body and combat pool. Still not good odds.

Thanks guys, yes I forgot Power must exceed and not simply be equal to Hardened Armor rating to be effective...
Still nobody has answered one of my question: if you attack in melee using Willpower, is it considered regular melee combat: does the spirit gets Reaction+ combat pool dice to counterattack?

Standard Dumpshock cited munchkin pistol user* should be able to down a force 4 with one predator 2 bullet.

*adept with smartlink (maybe 2), enhanced articulation, reflex recorder, 6 skill, 5 enhanced skill, and at least 6 combat pool

[edit]I think the spirit only gets to use force and the person only gets to use willpower, once I find the page reference, I'll re-edit.

It's on page 188 BBB, but from what I understand, the Spirit resists damage with its Force . So it means the spirit doesn't get its Combat skill dice first to see whether it hits or gets hit...right?
Sorry for being quite dim-witted, but I want to get absolutely sure , since the situation is bound to come up in our game tonight...

Ah, I kept skipping that and looking at the spirit combat.

Well, at different points in that paragraph it says that the character can't use combat pool and the spirit can't use combat pool as well as what attributes are used instead of skills. It's a variant of a normal melee combat, so only where the specific force of wills rules come into play is there a difference.

To sum it up: PC rolls willpower vs. spirit rolling force, spirit does damage as usual if successful, PC does damage based on charisma if successful.

ok, thanks to eveybody who tried to help me on this one, special thanks to you, Thrall of the Horrors...

related question:

A PC gets their choice of attacking with just a physical attack (in which case the spirit reduces/eliminates the power of the attack with its immunity power), or they go into a contest of wills with the spirit (which you already described above).

Most non-magical pcs probably don't know about the way this works (in character). Do they do damage with contest of will attacks (even though they don't know that it's their personality that's actually doing the damage?)

Do you make the PCs declare whether their melee attack is a contest of wills attack or a normal physical attack, or do you just default to the one more likely to succeed?

I dare you to figure out any way that someone could describe attacking with your ego to a completely mundane individual with no magic background skill. Just getting to the understanding that you can attempt to damage things through sheer stubbornness while not a mage is worthy of a point or two in the magic background knowledge skill. However, that shouldn't actually stop someone from doing it, just stop them from having any idea what they're doing.

Actual mechanics for a PC beginning a contest of wills with no idea what they're doing should be a RP and gamemastering call, but I think if it involves the player screaming "Oh, my god, I'm dead, I'm dead, I'm dead" and using up some karma pool, that should be enough to implement the force of will contest.

It represents the pouring of raw, unadultarated emotion into the attack... throwing everything you have into every swing. You're not just standing there casually thinking "I will you to suffer a wound."

here's one possibility: back when the Awakening first got going, and spirits started appearing, religious types would probably be the ones who most often ended up facing off against spirits, on the principle that supernatural/spiritual forces must be related to/combatted with the power of <insert your favorite god here>. as often as not, this religious whackery worked; whacking a spirit with a cross, or koran, or whatever, is a force-of-will attack. ergo, it's probably "common knowlege" in the sixth world that attacking spirits in the name of a particular faith is effective. so, when Joe Don't-Know-Jack-About-Magic gets jumped by a fire elemental in search of cash to burn, Joe might scream something about demons and punch the elemental, hurting it enough to scare it off.

in other words, yes, most people will probably know to attack the spirit with force of will; they just won't call it "force of will".

But, as Doc said, the attack still involves a physical component. That is why Reach is, or can be a factor in the combat.

right, right. i was answering Apathy's question about whether or not a mundane would know to use his force of will against a spirit.

Which is why ever street preacher should carry around a giant 4-foot-long cross, preferably one hollowed out and filled with guns, with a built-in rocket launcher.

Go for 5 feet, it's easier to argue a 2 reach with that.

Na Telescoping staff....

Which reminds me... did anyone else see Read or Die and think, "...gee, a staff with fire coming out the end..." I didn't (just thought it was frelling sweet with the girl and her tiny slip of paper against the monk's fire staff), but what would it cost ot make a staff like that? Maybe something similar to the stun baton's cost?

I'd probably just apply the cost for a Secondary Weapon firearm customization option to the cost of your staff of choice. Use the same rules, too, save modify them so that they can be triggered willingly or something.

ah, that dude was obviously a magician's path adept. just use the flamethrower spell with a talisman limitation.

When I asked several years ago about Test of wills Spirit Combat I was told that the spirit makes normal attacks using reaction plus combat pool. Normal melee modifiers apply. Character uses Willpower no combat pool plus reach (natural or weapon or both). If character wins, Spirit take Chr (M) damage and resists using Force no combat pool. If spirit wins, player soaks damage as normal (Body + combat) against whatever level of damage a spirit deals out.

Compliments of Mike Mulvihill.