Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Player wants to Make Biowere...
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
GaiasWrath8
I have a player who wants to make Biowere for his charector. Like insted of paying 50K for a superthiroid gland he wants to have a biowere shop and high bio tech and then just make himself a cultured organ, then pay some street doc to put it in him.

Any one have a player do this before?

How would I handle this?
Kagetenshi
With the word "no".

~J
Ancient History
Fine, fine. All you need to do is have him steal/acquire a cloning lab, a geneticist, and some sample tissue, germ cells, and/or copy of the proper genetic sequence! Then he can go about acquiring the raw, sterile material he needs, grow the body, harvest the organ, dispose of the corpse, and hire some street doc to stick it in him!

Honestly, he'd do better to have a decker break into a shadow clinic's files, set him up with an appointment, and charge it to somebody else's account.
GaiasWrath8
LOL, thats great. smile.gif Thanks for the good advice.

But really, can this be done?
lorthazar
Actually I believe the words are 'Frag No!'
GaiasWrath8
QUOTE (Ancient History)
Fine, fine. All you need to do is have him steal/acquire a cloning lab, a geneticist, and some sample tissue, germ cells, and/or copy of the proper genetic sequence! Then he can go about acquiring the raw, sterile material he needs, grow the body, harvest the organ, dispose of the corpse, and hire some street doc to stick it in him!

Well now thats its put like that. LOL, I think I might be able to exsplain it to him. He was trying to point out that if it was grown from his cells (cultured bio) then he should be able to make it with a Biowere Shop (SR3) cost 15,000 ny.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (GaiasWrath8 @ Nov 10 2004, 04:39 PM)
QUOTE (Ancient History @ Nov 10 2004, 04:36 PM)
Fine, fine. All you need to do is have him steal/acquire a cloning lab, a geneticist, and some sample tissue, germ cells, and/or copy of the proper genetic sequence! Then he can go about acquiring the raw, sterile material he needs, grow the body, harvest the organ, dispose of the corpse, and hire some street doc to stick it in him!

Well now thats its put like that. LOL, I think I might be able to exsplain it to him. He was trying to point out that if it was grown from his cells (cultured bio) then he should be able to make it with a Biowere Shop (SR3) cost 15,000 ny.

A Beta Clinic. Cultured Bioware requires a Beta Clinic or better. There's nothing stoping him from buying one except cost and Availability. Also, he better have decent biotech skill.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (GaiasWrath8)
I have a player who wants to make Biowere for his charector. Like insted of paying 50K for a superthiroid gland he wants to have a biowere shop and high bio tech and then just make himself a cultured organ, then pay some street doc to put it in him.

Any one have a player do this before?

How would I handle this?

I'd say that it would require a Medical Facility (M&M p. 138) with a rating equal to the Availability of the desired implant. He'll then have to hire the proper number of nurses and assistants to help equal to the amount needed for a Medical Facility of that size.

So for a Suprathyroid Gland, he'll need a Rating 6 Medical Facility costing 153,664,000 nuyen with an Availability of 16 and x3 Street Index. And that's just for the facility.

If he hasn't figured out yet that it's going to cost him way more than buying implants individually, not to mention that the implants themselves are more readily available, well... let him go for it. If he wants to blow nearly half a million nuyen on it, let him!
nezumi
At absolute MINIMUM, it's not going to be a shop, it'll be the facility. As has been pointed out, you need to make it a high rating facility at that, so increase the SI, avail and cost accordingly.

Then you start hiring the full time geneticists and you get your hands on the DNA sequence.

He'd have a better chance building his own thunderbird.
tisoz
Tell the character those prices were for a general cyberware shop. Bioware is not mentioned in that book. He learned about bioware in M&M, so he should use the rules and prices in that book. They are near the end of that book.
Derek
QUOTE (GaiasWrath8)
I have a player who wants to make Biowere for his charector. Like insted of paying 50K for a superthiroid gland he wants to have a biowere shop and high bio tech and then just make himself a cultured organ, then pay some street doc to put it in him.

Any one have a player do this before?

How would I handle this?

Thats kind of like saying that if I had a high computer build/repair skill, I could buy a computer lab for $10,000 and make high level pentiums for cheaper than Intel is doing it.

(Not high level pentium computers, I mean, but the actual pentium chips themselves)

Derek
Tal
Ahhhh.... You can kinda do that.
JaronK
I have a player in my game that is a Medic, who owns a Rating 6 Alpha clinic, has Biotec 6, Medicine 6, and full appropriate cyberware. She still can't building Bioware, because she doesn't have a Beta clinic. But she's getting there!

JaronK
Tal
Jeebus. That character must have been around for a while..?
JaronK
No, starting character (and yes, you can start with all that and it's legal). She's a medic/face, with appropriate cyberware (microscopic vision, enhanced articulation, etc) and contacts, and lots of medical abilities. She's got a lot of money to make before she can upgrade to a beta clinic though.

JaronK
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Derek)
QUOTE (GaiasWrath8 @ Nov 10 2004, 11:32 AM)
I have a player who wants to make Biowere for his charector. Like insted of paying 50K for a superthiroid gland he wants to have a biowere shop and high bio tech and then just make himself a cultured organ, then pay some street doc to put it in him.

Any one have a player do this before?

How would I handle this?

Thats kind of like saying that if I had a high computer build/repair skill, I could buy a computer lab for $10,000 and make high level pentiums for cheaper than Intel is doing it.

(Not high level pentium computers, I mean, but the actual pentium chips themselves)

Derek

If the $10,00 paid for the necesary equipment and you didn't care about patent infringment, then you could. All o f the work is done by a laser-wielding robot, all you have to giveit the right design. As for materials, how much do yo think a few miligrams of silicon costs? Pennies....a penny, maybe. The ceramics and the gold plated pins probably only cost a few dollars.

The real cost of a chip is in R&D, it cists millions, tems of millions to design these things so they'll want to make that money back.



As for the beta clinic, I looked at M&M and couldn't find that requirement. I guess that because cultured bioware and betaware are both unavailable at chargen I lumped them together. It would be easy to start a shop to make standrd bioware. All you'd have to do is follow the blueprints that you could get from the UCAS or Corporate Court patent office. On the other hand, cultured bioware must be adjusted for the individual, that requires someone with a working knowledge of genetics, biochemestry, and some very good equipment.
RedmondLarry
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
QUOTE
...the actual pentium chips themselves

If the $10,00 paid for the necesary equipment and you didn't care about patent infringment, then you could. All o f the work is done by a laser-wielding robot, all you have to giveit the right design. As for materials, how much do yo think a few miligrams of silicon costs? Pennies....a penny, maybe. The ceramics and the gold plated pins probably only cost a few dollars.

The devices that make the few milligrams of silicon that make up one blank wafer have the right quality cost a few million dollars. The devices that create the right masks for each of the layers laid down on that silicon cost a few million dollars. The device that examines each chip produced on the wafer to determine which were manufactured without defect cost a few hundred thousand dollars. (As a general rule, the smaller you make the device on the chip the faster it will go, the less power it will consume, the more you will produce on one wafer, and the higher the percentage of defective ones on each wafer.) The laser-wielding robot to fasten the gold wires between the silicon chip and the pins is one of the smallest costs.

When you get to that scale of operation, the players are no longer playing Shadowrun.
Fonitrus
QUOTE
When you get to that scale of operation, the players are no longer playing Shadowrun.


Yea. At that level of granularity you are entering the domain of Cyber Tycoon smile.gif
And I would love to read the 20 questions about that character and see his reason on "Why are you STILL running the shadows"...

If you can afford the clinics and all the other gear there is really no point in running the shadows and even if you did getting paid 5000 a run (assuming u were splittiing a 20K between 4 runners) you start to think "hey my clinic makes several milion worth of implants per day to customers and it costs me 5000+ to hire cyber mechanic to do weekly/monthly maintenance on the machinery/gear in the clinic...why the f##k am i puttin my body in front of bullets just to pay the mechanic.."

A Johnson offers you 10000 to break and enter a warehouse full of data you want to steal...Why not buy the warehouse outright with gear and all... Its going to yield more bounty...

Or Johnson threatening you or something. You do a hostile takeover bid on his company and then utilise the extrateritoriality of the newly accuired lands to kill and drag the Johnsons body across the company driveway without hassle from the police smile.gif

Like they said earlier, a simple "NO" goes along way to prevent you going crazy explaining mechanics and working out the details of such an operation..
You are the GM, you must learn to dish out "NO" in quick succession and without remorse... Just be carefull where you aim smile.gif It still suposed to be a fun game.
smile.gif
Stumps
The player can very well have his own "shop" level for personal bio-ware growth and instillation.

But there is something that is a definate consideration.

Like many have pointed out here. A facility and the staff are the ideal situation in which to have these operations done.

However, he could do it on his own on a smaller scale without much of a staff to talk about save for a street doc or something.

The issue he's going to have is that all this REALLY CRAPPY bioware is going to have a REALLY HIGH chance of either:
A) killing him
B) giving him hellish side effects much worse than normal

and then there's the operations which can suffeciently install the bioware but is going to possibly:
A) have a HIGH chance of killing him or causing infection
B) screw him over for possibly months on end from recovering from improper surgery methods.

In Shadowrun, there's always a possibility to do something.
The issue is, whether or not you really want to do it that way considering the results.

Would it be cheaper?
Maybe in the long run if you are only talking about the bioware itself and not any operations to save his life from the bad bioware and sloppy operations.

Would it better?
This is where you defeinately can say "No". It would suck so bad that I'm not sure why someone would want to do this...but hey...to each their own.
Edward
Yes he could.

he would need skills biotech and biowear production at high values and he would need to obtain threw means fair of foul a surgical facility capable of producing cultured biowear. Man and machine will have pricing guidelines for that item it will be in the order of one hundred million nuyen. More on the streets. On the plus side if you where to acquire the facility you could probably get a teem of street docks that would do all the work you need done for free in exchange for free access to your facility negating the need for the skills.

In short, its just not economical

As to the validity of saying NO. you get less follow up questions if you explain why not in excruciating and humiliating detail.

And its fun.

Edward
Stumps
As just a note though:

There is nothing wrong at all with characters running large organizations.
Corps, labs, security agencies, etc...

They need the appropriate background for it and the GM has to work closely with them in character creation to make sure things are in relative balance with other such organizations in the Sixth World.

I myself have ran a character who ran a fairly large organization of militia meta-human activists.
It was really fun. I did end up having to run away and go into hiding at one point with the rest of our group (who were part of the organization as the elite members of the militia).

The way that there was such a large group under my control was simply done through a contact tree.
I had a few contacts who had a few contacts who had a few contacts and so on down the tree.
Each of the players had at least one contact inside of the organization.

This was our way of doing it.
There are others...for instance.
The GM simply allows you to do it.

Sure you are big-shot-johny corp owner.
Great.
You're worth millions or billions.
Great.

Now there's this thing that happens and you are slung into a story where you are running around with runners who may or may not be corporate runners, trying to accomplish something because everything has gone horribly wrong.
Aztechnology has basically waged war on your corp and you have to go into hiding and you are bound and determined to personally get them back.

Stuff like that.

You can also use the player who is the "Big Shot" to set up the runs for the team.
Why does he/she go on the runs personally?

As SR3 says, some of the runners out there do it simply for the thrill.

It's all possible. It's just not normal by any means.
All it means is that your group is playing a VERY HIGH powered campaign with BIG BIG chances and potential BIG BIG consequences and losses.
Just Jonny
Along the lines of what Stumps said, in addition to running a corporate big shot style campaign, you could also probably run a campaign as a street doc and his/her gang of protective thugs. While these sorts of alternate campaigns could be cool however, they rarely are unless all the players and the GM are in on it in the first place, rather than just changing the whole game to fit one player's whim.
Stumps
QUOTE (Just Jonny)
While these sorts of alternate campaigns could be cool however, they rarely are unless all the players and the GM are in on it in the first place, rather than just changing the whole game to fit one player's whim.

I very much agree with you on that.
When I did that militia leader, it was only fun because everyone else was up for it too.
If any of them would've not liked the idea, I would have...
A) Tried to figure out if there was a possibility that it could be made fun by including something I could offer for them.
B) Give up the idea.

Luckily, that group was always up for anything that offered more guns, magic, and merc-style jobs. grinbig.gif
Derek
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
QUOTE (Derek @ Nov 10 2004, 09:33 PM)
[Thats kind of like saying that if I had a high computer build/repair skill, I could buy a computer lab for $10,000 and make high level pentiums for cheaper than Intel is doing it.

(Not high level pentium computers, I mean, but the actual pentium chips themselves)

Derek

If the $10,00 paid for the necesary equipment and you didn't care about patent infringment, then you could. All o f the work is done by a laser-wielding robot, all you have to giveit the right design. As for materials, how much do yo think a few miligrams of silicon costs? Pennies....a penny, maybe. The ceramics and the gold plated pins probably only cost a few dollars.

The real cost of a chip is in R&D, it cists millions, tems of millions to design these things so they'll want to make that money back.



You missed the point while stating it. Kind of funny, actually. You are right, the real cost is the millions of nuyen in R&D. Just because the character has the skill, and the facilities, he does not have the abiliity to make the chip without the design.

Same thing, just because the character has the skill, and the bioware lab, he still doesn't have the R&D that went into designing the right forumla of drugs and genesplicing that will result in a piece of usable bioware.

Of course, he might be able to steal it, shadowrunner style, from a corp that does...

Derek
Rory Blackhand
Just want to point out that some industries make composite information available freely, like the auto industry where the components need to meet exact performance standards. It is possible to take a lens cap from an old model A Ford get it 3-d scanned for a fee, purchase the plastics according to the exact specs Ford has on record, then reproduce it on a small injection mold costing no more than 10k. I have a friend that does just that out of his garage. He made an extra 30k last year in his spare time. Not that making plastic parts is the same as making bioware or silicon wafers, rather, my point is not to shoot down a player's idea out of hand just because you don't like the idea. As a GM I would say sure, but make him do some real life research. See how much it would take to set up a stem cell research lab, just as a close equivilant. It might at least just be fun to know why research is so expensive?

My guess is that you will need a deep freezer able to store samples in liquid nitrogen, you will need incubators able to control humidity, heat, and pressure, powerful microscopes, computers, software, robotic test machines, centrifuge, seperaters, what nots, gizmos, etc...plus space and a comercial power source. I don't see those machines running off a a 220v service line like we get supplied to our homes? I doubt 10k will cover the basic gear land if you don't have good equiptment you get penalties for producing anything of value.
Kagetenshi
A Cray can take $900,000 a month to operate for power, cooling, and maintenance, for reference when factoring upkeep and power/etc.

~J
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012