The question being, what skill level does Mr. Smith, your perfectly normally and average computer wageslave, have in Computers?

Or the security guard in Pistols?

Just trying to think of a baseline for the 'normals' in Shadowrun...NPCs who are just ok at what they do.

Well, for people whose jobs depend on the skill... Probably 2 or 3. 4 if they're a captain/head geek/whatever. 5 and 6 or for those who are into truly groundbreaking territory. Computer Theorists, Marksmen, et cetera.

But, as we all know, Average Joe Pedestrian defaults to nearly everything, or has skills at 1 or 2.

Depends what you mean by computer wageslave. If you mean someone specifically that works with coumputers like tech support then the average skill level is three. If you just mean someone that works in an office and uses the computer occassionally then they don't have the skill and just default to intelligence or possibly a skill level of one if they know the very basics of doing things. All of this is IMHO of course and based off of that the book says that you can drive a car normally without the car skill because you're not doing anything out of the ordinary, so I figure it likewise crosses over for computers

The SR3 has a page at the end of the skills section that goes through each skill level and gives a real world example.

I would suggest using it and the difficulty level you're going for as a guide.

I found that a bit hazy and wanted to get a second opinion.

Tech Support doesn't have to even be hugely fluent with computers. Most of the time they have a huge book of common problems. If they can't find the answer, they transfer you to somebody who knows it offhand.

In-home tech support would be about that, or even a network administrator and his goons at work. (Id est, the people who go to somebody's cubicle and fix their terminal.)

Now, most people today (at age 30 or younger, keyword most, some older will apply) have Computer 1 or 2 simply from job training or "trial and error" learning.

And, since they aren't doing anything out of the ordinary, they don't need to roll tests. Once they get to doing difficult tasks (finding that damn file that MSWord misplaced, editing the registry, coding a webpage that's more than a bunch of headers and frames, et cetera).

Economically, a skill minimum of 4 is required to prevent massive costs due to critical failures and even normal failed checks.

People tend to have one knowledge skill at around 5 and 6 as their obsession.

If someone does something on a daily basis I figure they would be at least 3, 4 if they are compitent. Ratings of 5 or 6 tend to experts and trainers.

For example a shooting stuff skill:

1 or 2 would be gangers and street types.
3 or 4 would be security or law enforcement people.
5 military and 'swot' types.
6 elite troops and trained marksmen.
7 or 8 olympic shooters and top level assasins.
9+ no more than a few people around the world.

KT: That's under circumstances where it's a more difficult task.

Example 1: Anybody can boot a computer. They don't have to roll Computer to do it.

Example 2: Let's say Average Joe is Q/I 3/3, just for argument's sake. Well, that means he has three dice to toss at driving anything. At a +2 TN, this means nothing more crazy than driving fast and weaving around other cars, and probably driving in heavy rain/snow/sleet.

I really disagree. I think the average denizen of 2060 has a Computer of 3, an Electronics 3 and a B&R for both at 1 or 2.

So every shmuck can put together a computer and break into electronic equipment with their B/R skills?

Operating a CD player doesn't require an Electronics check. Maybe Intelligence, but not Electronics.

Its better to think of alot of mundan tasks as having a TN of 0, people can do them unless they fumble (eg dont save their work) or have bad modifiers (lighting etc.).

Computing 3 and Electronics 3 is a bit high for most people, especially as its more likely to be:

Computing(Legal Matrix Use) 2
Computing(Desktop publishing) 2
Electronics(House Hold Appliances) 3

I dont think most people are any good at electronics warfare for example.

Nah, mundane tasks don't even have a TN of 0. They require no tests at all. That's why people can get away with performing them without having the Skill.

Or do you guys really think it takes a Computers 3 skill to push the button that says "Coca Cola" on a vending machine?

KT, again, I doubt it.

Maybe the higher-ups in a corp, or those with affluent parents, but not everybody.

The average person can probably pop in a new chip, but that's about it. That same person can also default to Reaction to control that drone. But being skilled in it? I doubt it.

I can cook a bowl of ramen, but I don't have an ounce of cooking skill. I default to Int instead. I took a minor cooking class, but it didn't give me Cooking 1. It gave me a background in it that allows me to default to that instead.

In my major, Computer Science, I have Computer 3 (Programming 3 (Java 2) (HTML 3) (PHP 1)). Those are guesses, but they seem decently close. I have a Java background from four years ago, which helps with what I don't know in my current Java class.

I know you're shooting for "everybody is technologically literate in the future," but I really, really doubt it. At our current rate, technology is getting more complex than the average person can handle.

Sure, the Matrix takes care of difficulty with running a computer. Sure, they've made leaps and bounds in help and support (I hope). Doesn't mean everybody has taken college courses in operating a computer. They just know how.

Well, I should say mine is not a canon point of view, but the average person will have designed a macro (Computers 1), built an asist webpage (Computers 2), and probably modified hundreds of games along with their telecom personality, ect (Computers 3).

But pressing the coca-cola button in partial light while on a serious wound requiring 9s sounds about right to me.

Illiteracy is getting worse, not better, what chance do the sinless in the future have for more than a basic education?

SWOT: Special Weapons or Tactics?

Perhaps more realistic…

~J

I gotta disagree with you, Kanada Ten. You're talking more about the Computers Background skill. That's what most people will be picking up as they go through life. The Computers Active Skill is a whole other beast.

Oh, now I *know* Math and Science skills aren't the norm. Those are, at the very least, college-level skills. Math 2 and even 1 will let you handle complicated Calculus work without referencing a textbook. When it comes to everyday math by everyday people, defaulting to Intelligence reigns surpreme once again.

It's just like how you don't need to have a Cooking skill to cook a conventional meal; that's the skill professional Chefs use with journeymen chefs being at the rating 1 and 2 levels. You don't need the Computers skill to program a VCR or type up a report in a word processor, either, but you will need it to have a hope of programming an MS Office-like software suite sometime before the next Scourge.

Defaulting isn't a bad thing, and Skills aren't the summation of your skills (notice the difference in capitalization)... only your professionally-trained skills and talents.

Well, you're free to do what you like in your games. But you're going against the intent, the nature, and the execution of the skill system.

Nah. It's just that if your take on the skill system were accurate, people would have hundreds of low-rated skills. It's impractical to include them all on a character sheet which is why you really only have professional-grade skills, not genuinely fluff ones.

For example, everyone knows Superman is an alien from Krypton who was raised by the Kents, is vulnerable to kryptonite, loves Lois Lane, and has Lex Luthor as his mortal enemy. But it takes someone with the TwenCen Comics knowledge skill to tell you more intimate knowledge about the character, such as how he died, what the Eradicator is, and what kind of kryptonite affects Bizarro. The former is covered by defaulting to Intelligence, while the latter is geek-level professional grade skill and worthy of noting on a character sheet.

Well, then how about just assuming everyone has a "Common Knowledge" skill equal to their Intelligence score then? (Which, oddly enough, functions just like a default to Intelligence would, assuming most TNs to be 0 if they're worth rolling. )

You're preaching to the choir there. I adore Knowledge Skills and usually use an (Intelligence * 10) multiplier for free points, with the caveat being that you have to spend at least half of them on suitable "fluff" skills. No runner-centric ones allowed at all for those half points. But I'm not going to expect or require people to take skills for very basic and common skills... that's just not what they're for.

That's cool. I might adopt (read steal ) that ... thanks.

This is one of the things I try to establish with pesonalized chargen. I'd still like to see little skills like that if the character's background warrents them though, like Maths and Sciences for a tech college education, and mini-skill-sets that logically support each other.

Defaulting is fine on occasion, but it's just so cool for a PC to actually have even a small amount in a almost-never-used-but-immensely-relevant-right-now skill.

Cute story. However, there's a huge difference from a relatively uncommon hero like Daredevil and the pinnacle and very definition of a comicbook superhero like Superman. He's one of the most recognized icons the world over, right up there with Jesus Christ, Coca-Cola, and Ronald McDonald.

GM: Sure, just roll your "superweapon design" skill and you may stop it from firing, base TN of 9 so you can't default.
PC5: But I can use karma pool to reroll failures right?
GM: You actually have a superweapon design skill?
PC5: Yeah, it seemed a good addition to my James Bond Tales (Connery Movies): 5(7)

If you look at the SR Companion, the average wage slave has a computer skill of 3.

I think a good rule of thumb for NPC's is this:

For technical or knowledge skills used by a normal white-collar worker, 3 is about average. This is also a good rating for vehicle or social skills for most NPCs in general.

For combat skills, primary skill will be 4 and up, while secondary combat skills will lag about a point behind. 4 is good for a security guard, street cop, or common criminal; 5 is good for SWAT or undercover cops, underworld thugs, or guards at high-risk installations; 6 is for elites who are almost runner level. A skill of 2 or so would represent someone who is mainly interested in self-defense, such as a paramedic.

For people who have rarer skill sets, or very competitive or high-risk jobs, skills of 6 would not be uncommon - look at the stats for things like Johnsons, fixers, street docs, and so on and you will see that. The arms dealer has weapons acquisition: 6, the reporter has interrogation: 6, and even the snitch has local rumor mill: 6. For certain occupations, a skill of 6 is actually the norm.

Also, its preferable to have lots of low level skills to differentiate between 'those who kinda know what they are doing' vs those that really have no idea. If everyone defaults from int for cooking (except professional chefs) this means that almost all runners (who have very high INTs, on average) all bake great apple pie...

For most day-to-day horsecrap, all you'd need to get by would be a decent (3-4) attribute to default to, and a decent (3-4) complimentary background skill check. An actual active skill is a big deal.

I agree with Funk, for once, even if it makes the heavens rain blood and turns fire to ice.