I have a problem explaining to my players (and myself) how availability is an etiquette test. They all accept it as a game-balance thing, but none of us understand how it would work. If you're asking your fixer to get you an assault rifle, how nicely you ask (what etiquette seemingly would be, if the fixer knows you're not an undercover cop) doesn't seem to matter if you've got the money.
player: "I call my fixer"
me: "hello?"
player: "hey, can you get me a new assault rifle, I'll pay extra if you can get it fast."
me: "... er, roll etiquette?"
player: "3 successes with the reduced number, so it'll still take a while. *sigh*"
me: "yea, gimmy like a week."
player: "*sigh* ok, thanks man"
am I doing this wrong? Is the etiquette roll for contacting anyone he knows and walking down the street trying random seedy-looking establishments to see if they sell illegal stuff? If so, then is buying it through the fixer a way to get it quick (he's got contacts and a huge etiquette score) if expensively (as he'll charge you too much for it)? That would seem to make having contacts for the purpose of buying stuff a really easy way to get around availability rules (player: "I call up my contact at Cyberware-R-U who is in the illegal sales division" gm: "gods, what deltaware do you want now?")
Full Version: availability
This has always been a bit of a hiccup in the rules for me as well. Even basic legwork seems somehow a bit suspect. Why is my contact essentially using my Etiquette roll to decide how much he knows?
For legwork, I tended to eyeball a solution. The runners make their etiquette checks as usual, noting appropriate contacts. If the successes gained are mostly from the better target number for having contacts, I feed them the information through those contacts; otherwise I give it via other NPCs. If the player specifically uses a contact to ask for information ("We need to know what Lone Star discovered from the crime scene; I know this detective might be able to help with that") I use an appropriate skill from the contact's description.
The same system might work with the availability thing, in theory.
For legwork, I tended to eyeball a solution. The runners make their etiquette checks as usual, noting appropriate contacts. If the successes gained are mostly from the better target number for having contacts, I feed them the information through those contacts; otherwise I give it via other NPCs. If the player specifically uses a contact to ask for information ("We need to know what Lone Star discovered from the crime scene; I know this detective might be able to help with that") I use an appropriate skill from the contact's description.
The same system might work with the availability thing, in theory.
Err, that's an interesting view of the process.
I think the view the rules take is that YOU are trying to schmooze your contact into getting the items for you. It's not a matter of whether or not they can get the item, it's a matter of whether or not they want to find and sell those items to you.
Even though you may have a fixer who's a level 2 buddy (and noting that you do get an extra Etiquette die out of that relationship), that doesn't necessarily mean he's going to just hand over all of his best stuff to a two-bit hood like you just because you asked for it. He likely has much bigger and more important clients looking for the same gear... but if you can convince him to get it for you, well, you convinced him to get it for you.
That said, I do ignore Availability times and sometimes even ratings for equipment a contact would readily have available in large quantities. Most types of ammo and small arms, for instance, will be readily available from a Gun Shop Owner. In cases like that, the Etiquette Test is to see if you can convince them to commit a crime by selling the stuff to you under the table.
But if you're dealing with a generic contact like a Fixer (who's a little bit of everything), you're pretty much going to have to wait till they find it for you, assuming you convinced them it was worth their time to begin with (and noting that offering more money can lower the Availability, thus improving your chances of convincing them to do so).
I think the view the rules take is that YOU are trying to schmooze your contact into getting the items for you. It's not a matter of whether or not they can get the item, it's a matter of whether or not they want to find and sell those items to you.
Even though you may have a fixer who's a level 2 buddy (and noting that you do get an extra Etiquette die out of that relationship), that doesn't necessarily mean he's going to just hand over all of his best stuff to a two-bit hood like you just because you asked for it. He likely has much bigger and more important clients looking for the same gear... but if you can convince him to get it for you, well, you convinced him to get it for you.
That said, I do ignore Availability times and sometimes even ratings for equipment a contact would readily have available in large quantities. Most types of ammo and small arms, for instance, will be readily available from a Gun Shop Owner. In cases like that, the Etiquette Test is to see if you can convince them to commit a crime by selling the stuff to you under the table.
But if you're dealing with a generic contact like a Fixer (who's a little bit of everything), you're pretty much going to have to wait till they find it for you, assuming you convinced them it was worth their time to begin with (and noting that offering more money can lower the Availability, thus improving your chances of convincing them to do so).
When I run this sort of thing most of the ettiquette tests are replace with straight up role play. Ettiquette is handy when the players dont know how to approach a situation their characters would. As for availibility I see no problem with it, often the person your dealing with is a middle man, is burning favours or just sticking his neck out for you. Its worth making these an ettequette test as it makes the skill and charisma worth while.
Also theres nothing stopping the gm from doing a secret roll to see if something is availible or the person knows the info full stop. The character can sweet talk his granny until shes blushing, but she probably wount have any C4 lying around.
Also theres nothing stopping the gm from doing a secret roll to see if something is availible or the person knows the info full stop. The character can sweet talk his granny until shes blushing, but she probably wount have any C4 lying around.
huh...I never looked at it that way either.
I think I'll use that idea.
But I'll use both the normal rules and having the contact use their ettiquette to locate.
If you are trying to get it from the contact and he's not buddy, buddy with you, then roll away if you think he has it but isn't giving up the info.
If he has it and you want it, your roll can be used to help drop the price in a haggle, and work out the fine points of how soon he can get it to you or you can get it from him. (he might be lying to you about the time just because he might have other things going on, or another potential buyer who might pay more.)
If he doesn't have it and you want it, then he'll use his ettiquette to track it down for you, but if he fails, and you call back and he says no dice, then you'll have to make an ettiquette test to pursuade him to try harder (or actually go loking for it more than asking his roomate this time)
I like this change in view...it opens up more possibles in flavor.
Thanks.
I think I'll use that idea.
But I'll use both the normal rules and having the contact use their ettiquette to locate.
If you are trying to get it from the contact and he's not buddy, buddy with you, then roll away if you think he has it but isn't giving up the info.
If he has it and you want it, your roll can be used to help drop the price in a haggle, and work out the fine points of how soon he can get it to you or you can get it from him. (he might be lying to you about the time just because he might have other things going on, or another potential buyer who might pay more.)
If he doesn't have it and you want it, then he'll use his ettiquette to track it down for you, but if he fails, and you call back and he says no dice, then you'll have to make an ettiquette test to pursuade him to try harder (or actually go loking for it more than asking his roomate this time)
I like this change in view...it opens up more possibles in flavor.
Thanks.
I see the etiquette role to reduce time to get something as representing your motivating the person to put more effort into getting it for you quickly. A fixer probably knows 3 people that supply the Ares Alfa if you don’t get many success he will go to the one that he is trying to shmos into giving him access to there line in HMGs but take wile to deliver. If you get many successes he will feal his priority is securing your future custom and thus go to the one he don’t like or that charges a bit more but will get it delivered on time. You can also motivate a fixer by giving him more money.
That works well only for things the contact would not have in stock. If you go to an illegal gun pusher wanting a predator (any model) 2 clips for it and slandered ammunition the time should be based on how long to arrange pick up not how long to get somebody to give it to him. Likewise if you go to a tails monger after a focus he doesn’t have in stock you may wind up having to commission it simply because he doesn’t have one regardless of how well you do one the etiquette test you will just make him apologise more for the delay.
Edward
That works well only for things the contact would not have in stock. If you go to an illegal gun pusher wanting a predator (any model) 2 clips for it and slandered ammunition the time should be based on how long to arrange pick up not how long to get somebody to give it to him. Likewise if you go to a tails monger after a focus he doesn’t have in stock you may wind up having to commission it simply because he doesn’t have one regardless of how well you do one the etiquette test you will just make him apologise more for the delay.
Edward
| QUOTE (Edward) |
| [...]slandered ammunition[...] |
I didn't know you could insult ammunition.
You can put anything in mercury rounds instead of mercury, so a copy of the Private Eye might fit 
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| Most types of ammo and small arms, for instance, will be readily available from a Gun Shop Owner. In cases like that, the Etiquette Test is to see if you can convince them to commit a crime by selling the stuff to you under the table. |
The way I see it though, if they have it on-hand and have sold to you illegally before (especially if they've sold you something more illegal) then why is there even a test to convince them to sell to you?
Anyhow, I like that explanation. They've got it, or can get access to it - but you've got to convince them it's worth their time to sell to you.
The only problem would be that if they can get access to it and you're willing to pay a lot, I don't see why they wouldn't do it, thus making any inexpensive high-availability items easy-access, but I assume that there aren't many of those (I've not got the book in front of me).
Thank You.
| QUOTE (tanka) | ||
I didn't know you could insult ammunition. |
45s don't like it when you call them 38s.
-karma
Who knows? Maybe they had a recent investigation by a cop harrassing them about a weapon they found at a crime scene, and left the owner a bit wary. Maybe he has other customers in the store and doesn't want to come across as a criminal in front of them. Whatever. There's tons of reasons.
The real question, however, comes from legal purchases. For some reason, you still have to go through the same process just without the Street Index modifier. So even if you go to a sporting goods store and have a legal SIN, you still have to make an Etiquette Test against the Availability of a pair of climber's harness in order to snag one.
But then again these rules are geared around illegal purchases by SINless criminals, so I can understand why they didn't put much thought into the legal side of things. Doesn't make it all right, just understandable.
The real question, however, comes from legal purchases. For some reason, you still have to go through the same process just without the Street Index modifier. So even if you go to a sporting goods store and have a legal SIN, you still have to make an Etiquette Test against the Availability of a pair of climber's harness in order to snag one.
But then again these rules are geared around illegal purchases by SINless criminals, so I can understand why they didn't put much thought into the legal side of things. Doesn't make it all right, just understandable.
I'd imagine if terrorists climbed up the side of some landmark and blew it up, the FBI would be watching purchases of climbing harnesses at sporting goods stores for some time afterward. I'd think in a corporate espionage heavy world, runners might have to talk their way past the clerk, especially if they were doing something like paying in certified cred. What are you going to climb in Seattle other than skyscrapers?
You mean like that really big mountain casting a shadow over the city?
I tend to use a variation: 3 rolls.
Roll 1 - Runner's etiquete vs contact's willpower. It is assumed that the contact is willing to do business with the runner - that's why they are a contact rather than man-on-street. Successes are counted. This is basically a test for how hard the contact is willing to work for the runner.
Roll 2 - Contact's roll against availability. I write up basic stats for contacts, including 'skills' for aquiring different types of gear, info, or personnel. This way different contacts have different specialites. Successes on the first roll give them extra dice, because they are willing to put in the extra effort.
Roll 3 - Negotiations, Runner vs contact. How much is it worth?
The by-the-rules arrangement allows you to go to your bartender contact and get a panzer, theoretically.
Roll 1 - Runner's etiquete vs contact's willpower. It is assumed that the contact is willing to do business with the runner - that's why they are a contact rather than man-on-street. Successes are counted. This is basically a test for how hard the contact is willing to work for the runner.
Roll 2 - Contact's roll against availability. I write up basic stats for contacts, including 'skills' for aquiring different types of gear, info, or personnel. This way different contacts have different specialites. Successes on the first roll give them extra dice, because they are willing to put in the extra effort.
Roll 3 - Negotiations, Runner vs contact. How much is it worth?
The by-the-rules arrangement allows you to go to your bartender contact and get a panzer, theoretically.
Just re-read the availability section in the rules.
You're right.
The only two things they list there of matter to who gets the stuff for you are:
"To see if a character can obtain a desired item, the player gets in touch with a contact (usually a fixer) and makes an Etiguette Test."
And
"If the Etiquette Test succeeds, the character has found a source and placed an order."
The problems with these two sections are that the first one only says that it's usually a fixer and never says anything about rullings on when it's not a contact of that style, class, or some-such.
This makes the "bar tender" a by-the-book viable option.
Second, the following quote is punch full of problems that are never made clear.
First, who is the "character" that is being reffered to.
All the text surrounding this quote does not make it clear if we are talking about the Player Character or the Contact.
Second, if we are to assume that SR is being vague again and say that they are reffering to the Player Character then getting in touch with your contact is futal in the first place, as the dice will determine for you if you have "found a source", which is the same as saying, found a contact.
If it's the Contact that is being reffered to then it makes a little more sense, but not much since, as stated, your character is making the Etiquette Test and not your contact, so why does your Etiquette determine if they actually found a source.
It's discussed elsewhere as to the "willing" to tell you they found one, so this part is not reffering to that.
It's all so vaguely written that it seems like they might have been making some pretty big assumptions that runners would always simply go to their fixer and roll the dice.
Once you look at it and try and find a ruling on who can get you Delta ware...it get's weird.
There should be at least modifiers against contacts who don't follow that line, for instance, that bar tender who you just asked to get you some wired reflexes would have a harder time than that fixer over there who specializes in cyber sales.
There should be some sort of showing of this in the mechanics I think.
You're right.
The only two things they list there of matter to who gets the stuff for you are:
"To see if a character can obtain a desired item, the player gets in touch with a contact (usually a fixer) and makes an Etiguette Test."
And
"If the Etiquette Test succeeds, the character has found a source and placed an order."
The problems with these two sections are that the first one only says that it's usually a fixer and never says anything about rullings on when it's not a contact of that style, class, or some-such.
This makes the "bar tender" a by-the-book viable option.
Second, the following quote is punch full of problems that are never made clear.
First, who is the "character" that is being reffered to.
All the text surrounding this quote does not make it clear if we are talking about the Player Character or the Contact.
Second, if we are to assume that SR is being vague again and say that they are reffering to the Player Character then getting in touch with your contact is futal in the first place, as the dice will determine for you if you have "found a source", which is the same as saying, found a contact.
If it's the Contact that is being reffered to then it makes a little more sense, but not much since, as stated, your character is making the Etiquette Test and not your contact, so why does your Etiquette determine if they actually found a source.
It's discussed elsewhere as to the "willing" to tell you they found one, so this part is not reffering to that.
It's all so vaguely written that it seems like they might have been making some pretty big assumptions that runners would always simply go to their fixer and roll the dice.
Once you look at it and try and find a ruling on who can get you Delta ware...it get's weird.
There should be at least modifiers against contacts who don't follow that line, for instance, that bar tender who you just asked to get you some wired reflexes would have a harder time than that fixer over there who specializes in cyber sales.
There should be some sort of showing of this in the mechanics I think.
Of cause you can ask the bartender for a panzer. “yer I know a guy. He probably doesn’t want o talk to you though” exchange some cred “come back in 2 hours” 2 hours later he introduces you to a hard faced man in a germen SS uniform that the most uninitiated can identify as a neo-natzi. But he can get you a panzer. Your etiquette test with the barman convinced him to put his reputation on the line because you might be a cop.
The bartender probably also knows street docs (or people with lots of neat wear that can set you up with there street doc) deckers, cops, and any number of other usfull individuals. And the person he doesn’t know somebody he knows will know. Where were the rules for friend of a friend anyway.
Edward
The bartender probably also knows street docs (or people with lots of neat wear that can set you up with there street doc) deckers, cops, and any number of other usfull individuals. And the person he doesn’t know somebody he knows will know. Where were the rules for friend of a friend anyway.
Edward
Two often over looked parts of the acquiring gear rules.
SR3 Pg. 270
SR3 Pg. 270
| QUOTE |
| Availability is a measure of how easy it is to obtain the item on the street. |
You buy it legally, no roll required. You just leave a paper trail and of course must prove you are allowed to buy said item.
SR3 Pg. 272
| QUOTE |
| Availability represents how hard it is to track down a specific item. This code is intended as a guideline for the gamemaster, who should adjust the listed value based on the particular campaign and situation. |
I have developed special contacts for my players over the years, one of which is a troll amorer. You go see him and ask for a Predator III and 100 rnds of Ex-Explosive ammo for it and he asks you what color you want before placing it on the counter. Yes, theoretically you can ask you news reporter contact, you Lone Star contact and your mafia soldier contact for an assualt rifle becuase they either deal with them or know someone who does. I'm just gonna give you different modifiers depending on who you ask.
| QUOTE (Necro Tech) |
| You buy it legally, no roll required. You just leave a paper trail and of course must prove you are allowed to buy said item. |
I don't have all of my books available at the moment, but there are a couple of places that specifically state Availability is used for legal purchases. Not to mention building your own gear, too.
Please post them when you can. I just re-read the whole section and found no mention other than using availability to upgrade equipment and of course manufacturing your own ammo and explosives found in CC.
I use the Social Modifiers table in the SR3. If the contact is a fixer, or a reasonable contact for the item in question, I'd use the more positive mods, if not, the less positive ones.
| QUOTE (Necro Tech) |
| I have developed special contacts for my players over the years, one of which is a troll amorer. You go see him and ask for a Predator III and 100 rnds of Ex-Explosive ammo for it and he asks you what color you want before placing it on the counter. Yes, theoretically you can ask you news reporter contact, you Lone Star contact and your mafia soldier contact for an assualt rifle becuase they either deal with them or know someone who does. I'm just gonna give you different modifiers depending on who you ask. |
How the heck has that guy not gotten busted yet? All Lonestar would have to do is walk in in plainclothes and place an order, if he doesn't check to make sure that they can legally purchase what he's offering before he sells it to them, he will go to jail.
Alternatively, once they have nailed a runner for possession of one of his illegal arms, they will put a wire on the guy and send him back in to buy something illegal. If they sell out their contact, they will get a lighter sentence. That's the way it works with drug dealers now, and it makes perfect sense in regards to LS busting arms dealers, too. If that is the case, then the ettiquette test makes perfect sense. Every time you're buying something you have to at bare minimum convince the contact that you aren't working for the Star.
| QUOTE |
| How the heck has that guy not gotten busted yet? All Lonestar would have to do is walk in in plainclothes and place an order, if he doesn't check to make sure that they can legally purchase what he's offering before he sells it to them, he will go to jail. |
Ah, gee, I guess they have to earn the troll as a contact first?
| QUOTE |
| That's the way it works with drug dealers now, and it makes perfect sense in regards to LS busting arms dealers, too. |
Yeah, and there's a huge lack of drug dealers...
| QUOTE |
| Every time you're buying something you have to at bare minimum convince the contact that you aren't working for the Star. |
Amongst other things. The PCs aren't the only paranoid ones.
I figure the roll is to convince the fixer to sell you just one of something. Most distributors (the legal version of a fixer, I suppose) prefer to deal in bulk. If you buy many guns, often, and tons of ammunition then your fixer probably doesn't make you wait. But if you just come by once a month when you need something he's going to let you cool your heels a little.
No matter how much you pay your fixer, he is just the middleman. He's only taking a small percentage of the purchase price. And worries about Lone Star stings are precisely why you work through a fixer: because Lone Star can easily bust a seller, then turn around and try to nab all of his regular customers. The fixer takes the risk of talking to arms dealers, making phone calls and watching for the 'Star. Or more likely he makes friends with the local organized crime detectives and they leave him alone.
It's because the fixer (the usual route) is a cutout man that it takes so long, IMHO. He's doesn't just pick up the phone and place an order - he's got to go talk to a guy somewhere where the cops aren't listening in and arrange a covert exchange all while having various hired hoods watch his back. That stuff takes a while, is all. Thus, the more rare and illegal the item the more precautions he must take.
Viewed that way, the Etiquette test is quite appropriate. If you sound "off" maybe your fixer will take a pass and see if you end up in court any time soon . . .
No matter how much you pay your fixer, he is just the middleman. He's only taking a small percentage of the purchase price. And worries about Lone Star stings are precisely why you work through a fixer: because Lone Star can easily bust a seller, then turn around and try to nab all of his regular customers. The fixer takes the risk of talking to arms dealers, making phone calls and watching for the 'Star. Or more likely he makes friends with the local organized crime detectives and they leave him alone.
It's because the fixer (the usual route) is a cutout man that it takes so long, IMHO. He's doesn't just pick up the phone and place an order - he's got to go talk to a guy somewhere where the cops aren't listening in and arrange a covert exchange all while having various hired hoods watch his back. That stuff takes a while, is all. Thus, the more rare and illegal the item the more precautions he must take.
Viewed that way, the Etiquette test is quite appropriate. If you sound "off" maybe your fixer will take a pass and see if you end up in court any time soon . . .
I don’t see a fixer as being a distributor. More of a facilitator.
The closest legal equivalent I can come up with is the concierge at a 5 star hotel. He doesn’t have anything much in stock and rarely deals in quantity but if you ask him for something he will be able to find it for you. All you have to do is motivate him to do so.
Edward
The closest legal equivalent I can come up with is the concierge at a 5 star hotel. He doesn’t have anything much in stock and rarely deals in quantity but if you ask him for something he will be able to find it for you. All you have to do is motivate him to do so.
Edward
| QUOTE |
| because Lone Star can easily bust a seller, then turn around and try to nab all of his regular customers. |
This usually works the other way around.
They usually bust the guy with the gun, then find out where he got it, then go to the "fixer" and then bust him, then make him tell them who his supplier is, and on up the chain as far as they can get.
If they get the "fixer", then unless he mentions your name as important, they aren't going to come after you because they want the bigger fish so they can stop the import and trafficing of the contraband.
If you are buying guns in bulk (really in bulk), then get a decker to forge a valid end users certificate for you and get it all 'legally'.
So you want 2000 IPE Defensive grenades, 1000 smoke grenades, 500 M-23s, 50,000 rounds of annumition, 12 ATGM launchers, 60 ATGMS, 5 Handheld Sam launchers, 30 SAMS, ... Let me see your end users certificate... $$$$ nice doing business with you. (Though most runners don't need and can't afford the minimum amount of stuff that would be convincing.)
Of course, this means that there is a 'legal' sales record for all those bits, and if you hold on to all that stuff and keep duming it a different jobs, to cops are going to be able to connect the dots much better.
That one of the advantages of buying 'one off' equipment from you fixer. It's less likely to have come from a single lot (or whatever), plus plenty of other people will be using stuff from the same lot.
So you want 2000 IPE Defensive grenades, 1000 smoke grenades, 500 M-23s, 50,000 rounds of annumition, 12 ATGM launchers, 60 ATGMS, 5 Handheld Sam launchers, 30 SAMS, ... Let me see your end users certificate... $$$$ nice doing business with you. (Though most runners don't need and can't afford the minimum amount of stuff that would be convincing.)
Of course, this means that there is a 'legal' sales record for all those bits, and if you hold on to all that stuff and keep duming it a different jobs, to cops are going to be able to connect the dots much better.
That one of the advantages of buying 'one off' equipment from you fixer. It's less likely to have come from a single lot (or whatever), plus plenty of other people will be using stuff from the same lot.
Yeah, there's one thing that hasn't really been discussed much that I've often thought about but honestly....never really wanted to bring up in my groups because I thought it might ruin the extra nice character flavor that players use.
Using the same weapons over and over again is very dangerous in crime.
In SR, most groups I know not only use the same weapons, their weapons are specifically tailored to them in one way or another.
(pearl handles, custom grip, barrel extensions, etc...)
In all reality...I think this would really suck if anyone happened to see two of your groups crimes.
They would easily figure out that at least one of the same weapons was used in both crimes.
Using the same weapons over and over again is very dangerous in crime.
In SR, most groups I know not only use the same weapons, their weapons are specifically tailored to them in one way or another.
(pearl handles, custom grip, barrel extensions, etc...)
In all reality...I think this would really suck if anyone happened to see two of your groups crimes.
They would easily figure out that at least one of the same weapons was used in both crimes.
Which is why I see absolutely no problem in allowing the PCs to loot the security guards for their Manhunters and Predators.
hmm.. I dont know I generally dont roll much for availability and use it as a guesstimate of when a PROPER contact will be able to get the item you ordered. <"no, that bartender will not be able to get you a monowhip, I dont care what you roll, he doesnt have any".>
note: for anything people can buy today over the net in RL I allow the same in SR.. no rolls.
for high demand items expect to be charged more.
Example: In our sr campaigns we havent been too fond of APDS ammo, thus we consider this a very high demand item.. meaning it takes forever to get and you can ONLY get it after some rather serious bribes.. suply and demand. all runners want it, the book says it costs a piddling amount of money but I have seen several thou NY being paid for a single clip. this has the benefit that it is then only used when needed. & makes sense from a black market point of view... we also ran it so the star pays extra attention to cases where apds gets used or trafficked. The only time a player complained about this we pointed to him that npc`s face the same difficulties as pc`s. forms of ammo with low avail mean everyone might have some, including joe ganger next corner.
so.. you can run it by the book or give it the flavour required for your campaign, I prefer the latter approach but your mileage may vary
DS
note: for anything people can buy today over the net in RL I allow the same in SR.. no rolls.
for high demand items expect to be charged more.
Example: In our sr campaigns we havent been too fond of APDS ammo, thus we consider this a very high demand item.. meaning it takes forever to get and you can ONLY get it after some rather serious bribes.. suply and demand. all runners want it, the book says it costs a piddling amount of money but I have seen several thou NY being paid for a single clip. this has the benefit that it is then only used when needed. & makes sense from a black market point of view... we also ran it so the star pays extra attention to cases where apds gets used or trafficked. The only time a player complained about this we pointed to him that npc`s face the same difficulties as pc`s. forms of ammo with low avail mean everyone might have some, including joe ganger next corner.
so.. you can run it by the book or give it the flavour required for your campaign, I prefer the latter approach but your mileage may vary
DS
| QUOTE (torturi) |
| Which is why I see absolutely no problem in allowing the PCs to loot the security guards for their Manhunters and Predators. |
While that's a step in the right direction and useful at times it's also a little dangerous as well.
Crime scene A is where our runners faced off 4 goons and recovered 4 Pred III's.
Crime scene B is where our runners used those preds to fight 4 more goons and recover their 4 pred III's.
Crime scene C is where our runners used Crime Scene B's pred III's.
If anyone investigates scene A then they will find bullets from those 4 preds and if they happen to link up on scene B (for example, same area of jurisdiction), then they will notice the same bullet streaks on the rounds fired which will indicate the same weapons that were in Scene A.
Scene C will just let them know that this is a pattern for this group of criminals; to take weapons from the scene and use them elsewhere.
In all reality, the best weapon to use is one that's easily legally purchased (no matter if you got it illegally or not and sometimes it's better to buy it illegally because it might have a prior history recorded that will send the cops on the wrong trail because the last owner was a criminal that got caught and now they're going to go talk to him assuming first, that he is using it again.) and one that you use only once and either:
A) ditch somewhere that isn't likely for anyone to look.
or
B) sell it to a fixer again so that it recirulates through someone elses hands
In all reality, pulling off crimes and getting away with them is a very lengthy and involving task. It requires a good knowlege of exactly what the law (or other agencies or powers) will be looking for, and taking the measures to either:
A) use that info to falsely point the crime at someone else
or
B) make it extremely difficult for them to trace anything by erasing every trail you know they will be looking for.
The only downside to choice B is that they will be well aware that you have done so.
They aren't going to think nothing of finding zero evidence to point to who did this crime. They will actually think that you happen to be a very intelligent and professional criminal who is extrememly dangerous to them because you know what they're looking for and how to remove it.
This, in itself if done repeatedly, will become your mysterious M.O., your profile.
Seems to me that no matter what, there's going to be a certain amount of paperwork. If it's stuff that is legal without a permit, you should be able to pick it up without any wait time, however if it requires a permit of any sort, there is likely to be a few days delay as they either process the permit, verify and note to which ever permit giving authority there is that they've sold the item to you, or it takes time to forge documents to justify the loss of inventory and gain in revenue. Etiquette is just greasing the wheels of commerce, you convince your buddy that he can take a risk on you and put in some of the forged info after he's sold it instead of beforehand, or get him to pull a few favors for you.
If it's something common, like a pred, the avail is lower because so many of them pass in and out of the shop (legally and not), that it's easy to slip one more in there. If it's something unusual, like a monowhip, it's going to take a LOT of work to fake those permits, convince the distributor to 'drop one off a truck', to clear their own papertrails of paying for and receiving payment on this, blah blah blah. It's a serious hassle, and there are much more important customers than YOU asking for one. You know the company that produces them doesn't even sell them in the UCAS? And its not like a monowhip is so common they won't remember who was buying it... Gotta go out and deal with smugglers too, and that's never fun... Why you gotta call me with these stupid requests all the time? You'd better do some MAJOR butt kissing to get that sort of gear, buddy.
If it's something common, like a pred, the avail is lower because so many of them pass in and out of the shop (legally and not), that it's easy to slip one more in there. If it's something unusual, like a monowhip, it's going to take a LOT of work to fake those permits, convince the distributor to 'drop one off a truck', to clear their own papertrails of paying for and receiving payment on this, blah blah blah. It's a serious hassle, and there are much more important customers than YOU asking for one. You know the company that produces them doesn't even sell them in the UCAS? And its not like a monowhip is so common they won't remember who was buying it... Gotta go out and deal with smugglers too, and that's never fun... Why you gotta call me with these stupid requests all the time? You'd better do some MAJOR butt kissing to get that sort of gear, buddy.
| QUOTE (DarkShade) |
| note: for anything people can buy today over the net in RL I allow the same in SR.. no rolls. |
I heard there was a MiG on ebay once, so that might not necessarily be the wisest of plans
Yep ... there was a link posted a couple of years ago in the old forum to a Cray for sale. It was real cheap too, but came with quite a number of US Government restrictions.
real cheap meaning 6 figures or 7?
The M.O.D. over hear was saleing off Spartan APC's for 18K not much more then six months ago.
| QUOTE (DocMortand) |
| real cheap meaning 6 figures or 7? |
IIRC, it went for about $55k US to a Medical research company. Like I said, there were quite a few Goverment (read NSA) restriction on it.
| QUOTE (Kanada Ten) | ||
Ah, gee, I guess they have to earn the troll as a contact first? |
Thank you. Yes, he is a contact which means you must know the guy. Simply getting to his "shop" takes some serious effort as it contains enough hardware to put him away for about a 1000 years. It was just an example of situational modifiers applied to etiquette tests.
| QUOTE (Edward) |
| Of cause you can ask the bartender for a panzer. “yer I know a guy. He probably doesn’t want o talk to you though” exchange some cred “come back in 2 hours” 2 hours later he introduces you to a hard faced man in a germen SS uniform that the most uninitiated can identify as a neo-natzi. But he can get you a panzer. Your etiquette test with the barman convinced him to put his reputation on the line because you might be a cop. |
I love it, that's my new contact for the players. The bartender who knows everybody
| QUOTE (DocMortand) |
| real cheap meaning 6 figures or 7? |
Heard of someone once who almost bought an old Cray for $75. Backed out of the deal when he found out that it took hundreds of thousands of dollars to keep the thing operational for a month.
~J
Feel free to accept the rule as "that's how Shadowrun was written."
A number of people think it's silly and subsequently house-rule it to better fit their perspective on how things really work (at least in their world.)
You'll find a lot of bumps in SR canon that make no sense to some people but either ignore it as not worth house-ruling, or house rule it.
I usually go with Fixers and Dealers/Suppliers.
Fixers know people who know people and provide introductions and bona fides as necessary.
Dealers/Suppliers are the people who maintain stocks of illegal goods and services. Arms dealers, drug/BTL dealers, etc.
Another houserule - dealers take a -2 to Availability numbers for their specific product. If the modified availability is 4 or lower, the dealer is assumed to have the item in stock. Now you just have to make Negotiations rolls or pay what he's asking.
-Siege
A number of people think it's silly and subsequently house-rule it to better fit their perspective on how things really work (at least in their world.)
You'll find a lot of bumps in SR canon that make no sense to some people but either ignore it as not worth house-ruling, or house rule it.
I usually go with Fixers and Dealers/Suppliers.
Fixers know people who know people and provide introductions and bona fides as necessary.
Dealers/Suppliers are the people who maintain stocks of illegal goods and services. Arms dealers, drug/BTL dealers, etc.
Another houserule - dealers take a -2 to Availability numbers for their specific product. If the modified availability is 4 or lower, the dealer is assumed to have the item in stock. Now you just have to make Negotiations rolls or pay what he's asking.
-Siege
Anyone know if adding an auto-success number based on level on contact, would seriously screw with the game balance? Sorta like a Level 1 gives you 0 auto successes, A level 2 gives you 1, and a level 3 gives you 2. Autosuccesses only apply towards the time it takes the contact to get you the gear. So you can't automatically get that rating 12 weapon, but if its available, you can get it faster, if the contact if a buddy/friend for life.
| QUOTE (Stumps) |
| While that's a step in the right direction and useful at times it's also a little dangerous as well. If anyone investigates scene A then they will find bullets from those 4 preds and if they happen to link up on scene B (for example, same area of jurisdiction), then they will notice the same bullet streaks on the rounds fired which will indicate the same weapons that were in Scene A. Scene C will just let them know that this is a pattern for this group of criminals; to take weapons from the scene and use them elsewhere. |
That's why you don't use them in the same jurisdiction.
If Crime scene A is in Tacoma, Crime scene B is an Renraku Corporate site, and Crime scene C is the Redmond Barrens, the authorities won't be making the connections.
| QUOTE (Stumps) |
| In all reality, pulling off crimes and getting away with them is a very lengthy and involving task. It requires a good knowlege of exactly what the law (or other agencies or powers) will be looking for, and taking the measures to either: A) use that info to falsely point the crime at someone else |
This could be very dangerous if your scapegoat figures what is going on. Also, planting fake evidence takes more time and effort than erasing evidence. Experienced investigators also have a good chance of noticing planted or falsified evidence, which would definitely establish an MO.
| QUOTE (Stumps) |
| or B) make it extremely difficult for them to trace anything by erasing every trail you know they will be looking for. The only downside to choice B is that they will be well aware that you have done so. |
Why would they be aware that you have done so? Not finding evidence doesn't prove there was any evidence to find in the first place, let alone that it was erased. TV to the contrary, the average violent crime scene yields no fingerprints. Hair or fiber trace evidence, footprints, or tire prints; when found; needs the person or object it came from for a match. Ballistic matches only occur when the bullets are intact enough to test and the criminal still has the gun in their possession when Lone Star comes calling.
And even if they find signs that evidence was erased, that doesn't tie it to your specific runner group.
| QUOTE (Stumps) |
| They aren't going to think nothing of finding zero evidence to point to who did this crime. |
There are many crimes where no useful evidence is found. If Lone Star finds a dead ganger in an alley with no witnesses, they won't be finding fingerprints or blood from the shooter. If hair or fiber is found on the body, it almost certainly didn't come from the shooter. Ballistics won't have a match unless you find the gun.
That lack of evidence doesn't prove any runner team, let alone a specific one, did the crime.
If someone quotes the contents/url of a topic there really is no need to top it.
Ive just seen a truely nasty thread on another forum which went bad after some idiot topped it and stired up a whole kettle fish.
Ive just seen a truely nasty thread on another forum which went bad after some idiot topped it and stired up a whole kettle fish.
Thanks for the PSA.
Edit: I think Voran had a good question. I don't know how much I like it w/o seeing how it could be abused but I don't think theres a "statute of limitations" on threads. Nobody complained when Laughs in the Shadows or Infitration Challenge was resurected. (I miss Talia
)
Edit: I think Voran had a good question. I don't know how much I like it w/o seeing how it could be abused but I don't think theres a "statute of limitations" on threads. Nobody complained when Laughs in the Shadows or Infitration Challenge was resurected. (I miss Talia
)
| QUOTE (iPad) |
| If someone quotes the contents/url of a topic there really is no need to top it. Ive just seen a truely nasty thread on another forum which went bad after some idiot topped it and stired up a whole kettle fish. |
What does top it mean? This question is asked out of ignorance since i am still new to forum discussions. Sorry.
I'm assuming he means return to the top of the forum. The only other possible meaning is to run a Unix command to see what processes are running on the topic…
~J
~J
Being that the thread had been dead almost a month, yes, Kage you're right. However, there is something to be said for someone actually using the search function and responding to a topic rather than creating "yet another" whatever thread.
| QUOTE |
| I'm assuming he means return to the top of the forum. |
| QUOTE |
| Being that the thread had been dead almost a month, yes, Kage you're right |
Kage and Trantuala, thanks for the info.
You're welcome.
Tarantula: agreed. If it had been dead for 6+ months and didn't have anything particularly special in it, I'd say leave it in the graveyard, but this thread is fairly young. I'm not sure it'd even dropped off of my front forum page.
Edit: nope, all the way back on Page 3. We have been busy, haven't we?
~J
Tarantula: agreed. If it had been dead for 6+ months and didn't have anything particularly special in it, I'd say leave it in the graveyard, but this thread is fairly young. I'm not sure it'd even dropped off of my front forum page.
Edit: nope, all the way back on Page 3. We have been busy, haven't we?
~J
Ok, I just read through most of these posts and decided that, I too needed to post. Reading over the one page describing how to obtain gear it has come to my conclusion that when you use a contact you roll your etiquette to see if that person can get you the item (or is willing to) but that is understood from the example. Just above that on the page when it is trying to describe it, it is using a fixer.
So the way i would rule about this would be such.
Go through all appropriate contacts looking for the item, and if you are unsuccessful, go to your fixer. First the GM should decide whether or not the fixer can get it, usually it is always a possibility, then when you roll Etiquette assume you are rolling to see if he is Willing to get you it, if you succeed then he will work his contacts with HIS Etiquette, this is only to reduce the base time further.
This way seems more realistic to me, if a fixer can get you anything then so long as he is willing to do it, he'll get it to you sooner or later.
So the way i would rule about this would be such.
Go through all appropriate contacts looking for the item, and if you are unsuccessful, go to your fixer. First the GM should decide whether or not the fixer can get it, usually it is always a possibility, then when you roll Etiquette assume you are rolling to see if he is Willing to get you it, if you succeed then he will work his contacts with HIS Etiquette, this is only to reduce the base time further.
This way seems more realistic to me, if a fixer can get you anything then so long as he is willing to do it, he'll get it to you sooner or later.
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