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SentineloftheMountain
Hi. At what force level would you take the Shapechange spell??

The spell has a TN4. Would this mean you could take this spell as a force 1 spell like the old argument for Increased Reflexes +3 INI DIE force1??

Or does the force have to be greater than the Body attribute rating in order to work??

Thanks for the help.
Ol' Scratch
I rarely take it at more than Force 2 since I prefer to use it to turn into pigeons, mice, and things like that. But if you use it to turn into something powerful, you'll want a higher Force so that you can hit the threshold you need. EDIT: Oh wait, no, that's Body. Disregard me. smile.gif
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
mice

Of unusual size? wink.gif

~J
Ol' Scratch
Only for a few weeks.
SentineloftheMountain
ack. It helps to ready the spell description text.

I am developing a custom spell based on the Shapechange spell that would allow a spellcaster to transform into an elemental form like an air elemental and was trying to figure out what the force of such a spell would need to be.
Kanada Ten
I would say the force of the desired Elemental form should be no higher than the spell's force. Not that I'd allow it. You may want to look at Flame Aura as to an idea of drain for a single aspect of that transformation.
Ol' Scratch
I'd allow it to assume the physical form of a materialized elemental, no problem. They won't have any of the spirit's powers -- including Immunity to Normal Weapons -- and won't be dual-natured (unless they decide to astrally perceive while doing so). Basically, they just get the physical attribute modifiers, a flashy appearance, movement speeds, and Reach if any.
SentineloftheMountain
Doc has it. The spell would only give the elemental form and not the elemental's powers.

That would be frightening to give a spell caster access to the elemental's powers too(if only for the Immunity to Weapons power).

The main reason behind the idea of this spell was do give the spell caster the ability to transform his physical form into an air/gaseous form, so he could move through small spaces like cracks under doors, pipes, etc.

Any thoughts on what the force of this spell should be since a threshold like in the Shapechange spell would be hard use??

I was thinking about using the force of the spell with the form's elemental spirit's stats to determine the spell caster's physical attributes in the elemental form(body, quickness, and strength).
Kanada Ten
QUOTE
The main reason behind the idea of this spell was do give the spell caster the ability to transform his physical form into an air/gaseous form, so he could move through small spaces like cracks under doors, pipes, etc.

The spell you want is mist form. Treat it as a shapchange to a Body 0 critter, only up the drain by one level. IMO.
SentineloftheMountain
Is mist form in one of the source books??
ES_Riddle
Why not just shapechange into a flea, ant, or other tiny critter? I've found that the best use of shapechange is as a recon spell. No one ever suspects the butterfly.

You do have to be careful, though. I had a character who was checking out an old warehouse in rat form get jumped by a cat once. I stunbolted the hell out of that cat, and the guards just thought that the cat was so lazy it wasn't even going to finish me off. Out came some light pistols, away went my combat pool, and I was gone (for the moment).
Fortune
I like the version that was listed in one of the old SR2 adventures (Ivy and Chrome?) that let the caster take a limited number of pre-selected items with him when he shapechanges (limited by Force, IIRC).

This version was included to give some modesty to the couple of teenage girls who use the spell, and would otherwise appear naked in front of the party. biggrin.gif
Ol' Scratch
I allow it in my game (+1 Spell Level modifier) and it allows the caster to include up to (Magic + Force) kilos of equipment in the transformation, with anything that would accompany him when he projected (foci, fetishes, talismans, etc) not counting towards that limit. While so transformed, all gear except the magical gear is non-functional and inaccessible.
Edward
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
I allow it in my game (+1 Spell Level modifier) and it allows the caster to include up to (Magic + Force) kilos of equipment in the transformation, with anything that would accompany him when he projected (foci, fetishes, talismans, etc) not counting towards that limit. While so transformed, all gear except the magical gear is non-functional and inaccessible.

What do you mean by spell level?

Did you mean drain level?

Edward
Ol' Scratch
Yeah, I meant Drain Level. Sorry. smile.gif English is my first language, so naturally I suck at it.
Apathy
QUOTE
I allow it in my game (+1 Spell Level modifier) and it allows the caster to include up to (Magic + Force) kilos

The idea of a housefly being able to fly into your room with 12 kilos of C-12 in a satchel is a scary thing...
Edward
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
Yeah, I meant Drain Level. Sorry. smile.gif English is my first language, so naturally I suck at it.

Been playing to much of that other game have we?

And you should know I will abuse that 12 KG of gear.

Edward
Crusher Bob
A set of normal clothes weights, what maybe 1 KG at the most? If the object is to allow the caster to keep his clothes, etter really adjust the weight down, 12 KG is a lot of stuff.

Also, if you let magic easily alter the mass, density, and shape of things I suspect there are a lot of cheesy exploits just waiting in the wings.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Crusher Bob @ Nov 19 2004, 10:22 AM)
A set of normal clothes weights, what maybe 1 KG at the most?  If the object is to allow the caster to keep his clothes, etter really adjust the weight down, 12 KG is a lot of stuff.

Weapons, Pocket Secretaries, Armor, and quite a few other things all add up pretty quickly. Ares Predator (no accessories), 2 Clips of Regular Ammo, Ordinary Clothing, Form-Fitting Full Body Armor, Armored Jacket, Pocket Secretary, and a Medkit alone comes out to be 11.5kg.

You'll also note your assumption that you're using a Force 6 spell now, as opposed to a Force 1 or 2 one. Suddenly, Force is pretty useful, neh?

QUOTE
Also, if you let magic easily alter the mass, density, and shape of things I suspect there are a lot of cheesy exploits just waiting in the wings.

That's just an odd statement considering the spell we're talking about. Not to mention spells like Petrify and Shape Earth/Water just to name two right off the top of my head.

QUOTE (Edward)
Been playing to much of that other game have we?

Not for a couple of years, no. It's an easy mistake considering, yanno, I was talking about a spell and the Drain level thereof. nyahnyah.gif

QUOTE
And you should know I will abuse that 12 KG of gear.

Note emphasis. In which case I simply wouldn't invite you to the next gaming session unless we were playing a powergaming change-of-pace or stress-relieving game or something, in which case such abuses would be expected.
Edward
I would have considered that basic weapon and armour package you mentioned an abuse. The only thing that stops the spell being the king of infiltration is that you canít take anything with you as a butterfly. It would be almost as useful as teleport. I also notice that you gave focuses free. I didnít think you could take focuses now. The fact that you had to be able to ware your focus or sustain the spell yourself was also signifigant.

Edward
Ol' Scratch
Then don't use it. I couldn't care less, and it's no fault of my own that you can't come up with any ways to challenge uses of the spell. I was just offering up my house rule for anyone who might be interested in something similar, and it's worked perfectly fine in every game I've GMed where the spell showed up.
tjn
QUOTE (Crusher Bob)
Also, if you let magic easily alter the mass, density, and shape of things I suspect there are a lot of cheesy exploits just waiting in the wings.

And I bet Create Food really gets under yer skin.
BitBasher
QUOTE (tjn)
QUOTE (Crusher Bob @ Nov 19 2004, 11:22 AM)
Also, if you let magic easily alter the mass, density, and shape of things I suspect there are a lot of cheesy exploits just waiting in the wings.

And I bet Create Food really gets under yer skin.

"create <anything>" permanently doesn't exist in my game. It's one of those things then when taken to it's natural conclusion bends the game world over a barrel.
Hasaku
QUOTE (Edward)
The fact that you had to be able to ware your focus or sustain the spell yourself was also signifigant.

I remember someone suggesting, a long time ago, replacing one of the small bones in your index finger with a sustaining focus made of nontoxic metal. The rationale being that a finger bone is sufficiently common to allow a variety of forms. Replacing a vertebra would probably be more essense intensive, but would allow you to keep the focus for all vertebrate forms.

What are your thoughts on this? Would the alteration of size/shape destroy the focus or would it still function?
Kanada Ten
QUOTE
What are your thoughts on this? Would the alteration of size/shape destroy the focus or would it still function?

What happens to the food in the subject's stomach? Personally, I allow such internal things to come along.
Mercer
QUOTE (ES_Riddle)
No one ever suspects the butterfly.

How does a line this great slip by without comment? Its right up there with the Chinese Zodiac placemats they have at fast food chinese places, which is where I got: "Beware of the Monkey." Solid advice if ever I heard it.
ES_Riddle
QUOTE (Mercer)
QUOTE (ES_Riddle)
No one ever suspects the butterfly.

How does a line this great slip by without comment?

You can thank The Simpsons for that line.
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