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DarkShade
one of my players has been talking about getting or rigging up an emp device.
My own general take has been that emp devices do between jack and shit anymore; otherwise I dont understand some of the issues, like the arcology. What exactly stopped ares from bombarding the place with emp, microwave and ultra wide band weaponry to get rid of deus on the second day if it was that easy?
EMP generates rather large currents in wires and metal frames, & fries vlsi chips, but most of the voltage is caused by the connections <length of wire affects electric field a lot>. My personal belief, but havent done the maths, since we are already in rl using very small chips <the chip itself is diminute, when you open it, the connecting wires use up most of the space in the box>, now by 2064 they would definitely be tiny. all the wires replaced by optics, this is important, no wires,=> no emp and in order to get one able to generate a significant voltage we would need a huge nuke <from a site I got that a 1 MT nuke airburst 500 km generates a 20-50 KV/m field.. a LOT but when your chip is in the submilimeter range ...>
there is a nice article at http://www.tfd.chalmers.se/~valeri/EMP.html which also mentions a few things on tempest , emp and hardening.. interesting read smile.gif

a funny note is that the age old faraday cage provides extremely good hardening against emp so either avoid metal completely or make sure you enclose your vehicle in a metal cage or that the frame itself contains enough metal.

ideas? opinions? in canon I can find nothing on emps but it seems any emp hardening would also protect from zappers, & all the other electrical attacks which it seemingly doesnt in sr.

DS
Kagetenshi
It isn't nearly that easy regarding the Arc. Not only would a lot of stuff be extremely well-shielded, you've also got the problem that you're right in the middle of a decently dense urban area. Not where you're going to want to start an EMP bombardment.

That and the fact that Renraku would not take kindly at all to Ares doing anything to the Arc.

~J
Cray74
QUOTE (DarkShade)
My own general take has been that emp devices do between jack and shit anymore;

Correct. Read the intro/history in the SR3 main book. In 2005 (IIRC), optical chips were introduced that were immune to EMP.

As far as SR is concerned, modern equipment is immune to EMP.

There's areas where it should be bothered, like wireless systems, but the general tone is that it doesn't matter.
Edward
Canon is it doesnít work.

If you run the physics and eth descriptions side by side you conclude that there should be vulnerable components.

Optical chip and processors as well as the optical lines between them are safe from an EMP. However something has to generate that light, there are probably several low power lasers in every computerized item. If the laser is damaged by an EMP all the optical logic chips that use that light are going to stop working.

Secondly in order to produce a motive force (bend your cyber arm) you need a motor of some description. These are electric and could conceivably be built using super conductors (I think rigger 3 mentions superconductors in a cars motor so room temperate superconductors are not uncommon). I donít know how a superconducting motor would interact with an EMP.

For the sake of simplicity (and the intense arguments that would come about if you tried to balance the expected effect of an EMP deceive with the game system) I would prefer to suspend my disbelief. There are no EMP weapons because any EMP weapon large enough to effect modern electronics would have a destructive blast powerful enough to destroy all effected electronics. Exceptions would include cheep toastersand childrenís remote control cars witch nobody is sufficiently annoyed with to build them.

Edward
Cochise
QUOTE (Edward)
Secondly in order to produce a motive force (bend your cyber arm) you need a motor of some description. These are electric and could conceivably be built using super conductors (I think rigger 3 mentions superconductors in a cars motor so room temperate superconductors are not uncommon). I don’t know how a superconducting motor would interact with an EMP.

Start thinking in terms of "synthetic muscles" and your need for motors will become obsolete. Biological muscles and nervous systems are pretty much immune to EMP. The same could be true for synthetic muscles.
And yes, superconductivity (at room temperature and above *as in SR*) would most certainly have impact on EMP behaviour, because EMP-effects are based on immense, short term currents created to field flux in the electromagnetic spectrum. One important variable when it comes to currents is the resistance of the conducting material. Since superconducters have a resistance near zero, there will be some differences (That doesn't mean however that a superconductors can take infinite currents) ...

And of course there are possibilities for shielding systems like cyberlimbs, due to fact that normally they don't have the need to posses things like antennas to communicate externally. Good old Faraday can help there ...
Thistledown
I say, if he want's to use an EMP, and it sounds like a resonable use, let him. Who cares if it's not cannon. It's a good way to take out automated stuff for a while, so the rest of the team can do something.
Edward
I used to assume the synthetic muscles but I have been told there is reference to actual motors being used because they take up les space (so you get the extra capacity for things like cyber decks)

Edward
lorthazar
A: The Arc was built to survive a near hit from a strategic nuke. This menas that it would have some of the most impressive physical, radiation, and EMP sheilding known to man or dragon.

B: The man problem with EMP was that it erased all magnetically stored media. optical chips are immune to that aspect. As an institution all you would have to do is take the old chip and put them in a new device. And you'd only have to do that if your back up systems were running at the time of the EMP.

C. Electric motors, physioelectric compounds, rutheium, speaker, plasma screens, and many ovther components would be affected. If they were currently being supplied any power they would be seriously scragged. If they weren't you have a few hiccups and some static during trhe pulse and a few moments after.

Cochise
QUOTE (Edward)
I used to assume the synthetic muscles but I have been told there is reference to actual motors being used because they take up les space (so you get the extra capacity for things like cyber decks)

And now expand that idea onto the reduction of KEs with advancing cyberware grades ...

And consider this: It's possible to implant things like Cyberweapons into meat limbs. Those weapons also do have a certain KE requirement when installed into cyber limbs. So the use of motors and the subsequent lowered space requirements works only as partial explaination
DarkShade
QUOTE (lorthazar)
B: The man problem with EMP was that it erased all magnetically stored media. optical chips are immune to that aspect. As an institution all you would have to do is take the old chip and put them in a new device. And you'd only have to do that if your back up systems were running at the time of the EMP.

1)no, the main problem is different. say my amd microprocessor at the moment at home iirc takes 2.2 volts
at 2.5 v it wouldnt operate correctly.
at anything beyond a few volt above that it will be fried, literally, much in the same manner you wil fry an expensive RAM chip if you touch it while loaded with static.
magnetically stored media will probably be a thing of the past by 2060 anyway if current trends continue.

optical, as they dont have any long wires, cant build a big current through them directly, unless the field is tremendous.

2)Mybad on ares, I thought they had been hired to deal with the issue.

in any case, `urban area`as a reason not to use emps is not good enough, reasonable EMP bombs have variable ranges from few metres to about 200m in real life. carpetbombing the arcology woudnt have caused any major issues outside it. or any major non-electronical damage to it. also dont forget there are <already, in rl> ways to generate emp`s in a direction <microwaves, uw waves,e tc.>

as for hardening.. could be, whole arcology could be considered a cage of faraday, or near enough to nullify most non nuke-level EMPs, but still.. this makes it more difficult campaignwise as emp devices might/would be used a lot.
I dont like the concept of hardening in game as in RL hardening is not an exact science. basically hardening is building cages to nullify the fields and relays for any huge excess power to drain to, but little things like dirt, humidity etc can make it easy for current to literally jump to where you dont want it to go, frying the chips

note: super conductors in themselves can easily channel anything an emp pulse can produce over their length, their motive force might be supercharged for a bit, but an emp pulse is so short-lived that it likely wouldnt do much.<assuming they are based on the rl experiments of floating superconducting magnets>

currently I dotn allow emps in my game to do anything much more than severely disrupt the power lines & get gridnet guys mad at you but am looking at other options..

DS
Edward
I have never much looked at cyber limbs I admit (looked at essence cost looked ad muscle toner/augmentation decided to be a bio Sammy)

I believed there was no hard limit to the amount of stuff you could fitting a cyber arm. Just that the first X KE worth had no essence cost.

If this is not the case can u actually fit more junk in a flesh arm than a mechanical one. (assuming your stupid about it).

Edward
Kagetenshi
My point is that 200 meters open-air directional towards the Arc isn't going to do a thing, 'cause it isn't going through open air, while if the same were omnidirectional and detonated outside anywhere near the base (first thirty floors or so) it'd probably hit some surrounding buildings.

~J
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