Which you can't, unless you're packing a Panther around. So, shoot them before they materialize. There must be a workaround...

Engage them in melee. Even if your Willpower is an unimpressive 4, using a weapon that grants a reach bonus can ruin a force 6 spirit's day (with reach 2), or at least provide an even playing field (with reach 1).

The AZ-150 Stun Baton is only availability 3, and 1500 ; every runner should have one. It does 8S electrical damage and gives +1 reach, enabling any street sam the ability to go toe to toe with a Force 7 spirit (which is the most any starting mage can conjure without giving himself physical damage).

Alternatively, anyone with decent willpower and charisma scores can whack them in a contest of wills.

[edit] and munchy sams often have insanely high strength. Coupled with a spear (+4L damage, +2 Reach) they can pop any spirit even a high-level initiate could come up with.

o really?

more info plz kthnx

The Astral Plane does not follow Newtonian physics. There is no momentum, no inertia, no equal and opposite reaction. If two astral objects collide in the astral, they do no damage to each other no matter how fast the speed of thought is.

About the best yer gonna do, is somehow force a dual natured object into Astral Combat an unmanifested spirit. But enless the bullet's force is anywhere near the spirit's, the spirit is just going to slap it away like it was a gnat. And then get angry. You wouldn't like him when he's angry.

But is then still vulnerable to an 8S electrical shock, and if your GM allows you to use staging on these effects (varies by GM) then you can raise the power of the damage code once it stages to deadly. Even without staging up the power, the spirit would have to get 6 successes on a Body(2) soak test to eliminate the base damage, and on average a spirit with 6 dice will only get 5 successes. It's not real efficient, but can work in a pinch.

Well...which is it then? Two astral objects can collide in the astral without damage to each other, but a dual natured objected CAN damage an unmanifested spirit? 2 astrals can, or 2 astrals can't?

Well, assuming burst or full auto, unless it's a force 14 spirit I'm sure I could drill some holes in him... Now all that is needed is the ammo.

Couldn't a FAB derivative be used? Just a light coating of microbes or whatnot over the bullets, to make them "alive"? The whole "astral disruption" bit is what's got me stumped... not enough information.

PS: I don't like him when he's happy either

Does burst or full auto even work for penetrating Immunity to Normal Weapons?

Your assumption that Astral Combat and two astral objects colliding are the same thing is incorrect. Things can bump into each other without initating Astral Combat, but Astral Combat is only used when a) an entity chooses to engage or b) when it is forced to (see Herald's post).

Second mistake is assuming the power of the ammo has any relevance to the Astral Combat. Only the force of the material matters. Burst or Autofire doesn't matter one whit.

Strain 1 FAB isn't dual natured. Strain 2 FAB has no effect on astral forms in it's airborne form other then preventing Fast Movement and giving a +2 perception modifier. Strain 3... well, it kills Astral entities fine on it's own.

So what's left? Gaurdian vines can't be uprooted. Biofiber is grown in large, flat sheets which is non-condusive to making into a bullet (remember they have to stay alive to stay dual natured, and the fact that MitS repeatedly hits the reader over the head with how fragile they are).

So... Strain 2, in a nutrient suspension housed in a capsule round is quite likely the best bet.

But the availability on the suckers is 12/2 weeks for a force 6 (which is strong enough to have a good shot) or 20/2 weeks to have the best shot possible.

And given the fact you'd only get one "encased nutrient colony" per roll, it would take anyone but the uber-face some time to acquire a clip.

So, we have our capsule round full of FAB-2 that took some doing to get, and not only do we have to hit the target (and without Astral Perception, yer firing blind with a +8 to hit), but the unmanifested spirit has to be unable to dodge the incoming projectile (through wards, aerosol FAB-2, or something).

And then, after all that work, the spirit could still beat the FAB in Astral Combat.

I'm pretty certain it's power unmodified by automatic fire.

Rock salt could be considered an "Earth" attack attack and is in that case an elemental attack. It sounds feasible since an elemental attack is only thus IF the material is PURE.

By "pure" I mean a natural non--refined material like wodden stakes/arrows, rock salt etc. The problem all this makes is what exactly constitutes as an elemental attack?

For example, big D's temper shells create a fiery effect, incendiary grenades, even tracer rounds contains flammable material, not to mention shock gloves. What if you add a small piece of wood to the tip of a bullet? Would it be concidered natural?

Bottom line, many good ideas but too me it feels a little like a can of worms.

And within those same use restrictions, it'd be much faster, cheaper, and easier to simply get your friendly neighborhood mage to put some wards on bullets for you.

Who said anything about Banishing? A well placed Manabolt, or even Stunbolt usually does the trick in getting rid of Spirits. For that pesky horde, there is always Spiritblast. At least two of these are staples in almost any mage or shaman's repertoire.

Banishing sucks! Banishing bad! Say NO to Banishing!

Images of Underworld pop into my head for some reason...

Whilst I'm not sure I personally would go down this route at this point, I can see something along these lines becoming a R&D priority as the mana levels continue to rise and the Second Scourge becomes an issue and the need for magical solutions useable by mundane agents grows. Hmm... perhaps I ought to look at this if I ever run my Second Scourge campaign again.

EDIT: I just had a thought - what about the Ares Squirt II, or the Cascade Rifle? Or better yet the ELD-AR? (Corporate Security Handbook pp. 67-69) Both of these are custom-designed liquid delivery weapons, perfect for slapping something with FAB.

EDIT (again): I can't believe I forgot this one - the Bacteritech FAB-NG netgun (Corporate Security Handbook p. 70).

And I'm pretty sure that that's only what the FAQ says. The text of immunity uses the wording "power of the attack" ... which includes PN rise due to bursts or full-auto. It even includes ammospecific rises of PN, but the power alos says that all forms of armor piercing ammo are treated as being "standard" against this power. It's up to you which ammotypes you like to consider as "armor piercing", since any rise of the PN for ammotypes can be considered as "armor piercing" within the abstract nature of the damage system ...

When SR3 explains hardened armor, it specifically states that the power comparison is calculated before staging due to autofire or successes. Is there any precedent to think that comparing power to immunity is any different?

The fact that it has a different wording?

There are two types of armor that are discribed as "hardened"

1. MilSpec Armor
2. the Critter Power "Hardened Armor" (which happens to exist as a seperate entry!)

Both explicitly state that the base power of the attack has to exceed the hardened armor rating in order to take effect.
The immunity power however only references "power of the attack". The power of an attack however consists of base power + burst mods ... And as Doc F correctly said: The immunity power nowhere uses the term "hardened".
So although this power shares one property of hardened armor (no effect if the power doesn't exceed it's rating) it's still not "hardened armor" in game terms. It's just what it's called: Immunity (normal weapons).

There's yet another form of armor that exibits "hardened" traits, but still is something different: Vehicle Armor. And even that armor type explicitly states that burst modifiers do not count.

So my my precedent is the fact that Immunity does not make such restrictions in its wording, the fact that "hardened armor" exists as a separate power and that another armor type that works like "hardened armor" also explicitly states that burst / full-auto modifiers don't count.

I don't see why not. If your GM insists that the ward boundaries have to be a container of some sort (which isn't required by the rules), you can always use capsule rounds or the like.

Forensics get interesting here, because, if you're shooting at a purely astral target (if you're not, why aren't you just using regular bullets?), the body, if there's one at all, probably won't be anywhere near where your bullet ends up. The ward may provide a nice trail back to the mage that created it, but in order to pick up that trail, any investigators may have to find the link between an unmarked corpse in one location and a bullet embedded in a wall on completely the other side of town...

Narco-DMSO squirtgun, mage with stunbolt, and melee competant with a stun baton. The rat shouldn't be able to take out all three before it gets netted.

Once you have one (deeply drugged), you can give it a teensy bit of cyberware that makes reloading easier. Remote controlled autoinjector. Or if you have too much money for your own good, 3 remote controlled (somehow) chemical glands.

Heavy duty slingshot, maybe? I love the image of some runner with an armored glove reaching into his sack of devil rats and slingshoting them at folks. Works for both mundanes and astrals, and is good clean fun for the whole family...