Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Optical Chips
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
GrinderTheTroll
2 part question:

1) How many MP can be sueezed onto an optical chip? If there is a limit, can there be larger sized chips?

2) How varied can the data be? Could I have the MP to run my ChemAnalysis program for my Cyberware implant as well as the MP to run my TacComputer programs as well? Can they be accessed at the same time?

Direct answers or page references are welcome.

Thanks.
Kanada Ten
The only limit to OMC size was in Shadowbeat, which listed it at 1000 MP. The data can be anything that is measured in MP, which I think is fairly obvious, but can't "prove" at the moment. As to whether the information can be accessed at the same time, I'm thinking no and that's the reason for multislot chipjacks and jukeboxes.
Hasaku
I think it's retarded, but the existence of jukeboxes seems to suggest that a given chipjack can only read one chip at a time, hence the jukebox swapping out the "active" chip as needed. If you simply put the data on your chips onto a single chip, I see no reason you couldn't read the multiple programs through one slot. I'm sure the I/O rate of a jack is sufficient to stream multiple programs simultaneously.

I have this image of a poor runner who, somehow, is in the following situation: He must keep up a steady stream of Japanese speech or his cortex bomb goes off. Not a problem, he's got a Japanese linguasoft. Ah, BUT, he must also continue knitting an extremely long scarf on his way to the streetdoc or else his OTHER cortex bomb goes off. "Easy peasey," says our poor hero, "I've got a knitting knowsoft, too!" Sorry, Bob, there's a reason your jukebox cost nuyen.gif 10. Cue the fresh wall paint.
Kanada Ten
However, no other form of memory suffers this limitation. One can load all the programs and knowsofts into headware memory and use them simultaneously.
Hasaku
I see no reason a multislot chipjack should have this limitation, then.

In fact... *GM POWERS ACTIVATE! FORM OF: COMMON SENSE!* There, it doesn't.
Kanada Ten
QUOTE (Hasaku)
I see no reason a multislot chipjack should have this limitation, then.

In fact... *GM POWERS ACTIVATE! FORM OF: COMMON SENSE!* There, it doesn't.

I thought that was the purpose of the jukebox. It was independant memory from the OMCs so it could load up the chips into its memory and then run them all with only one chipjack. A multislot chipjack would allow one to run multiple chips at the same time as well, it's not the jack that's limited, but the actual chips.
Fortune
The only advantage of a multislot chipjack ... and the jukebox is that they allow you to slot more chips at one time. The only limitation on them is the amount of MP dataflow (which in my opinion is an arbitrary and pointless rule). If a character has head (or wherever) memory, they can (potentially) upload all of their chips, thereby making a milti-jack or jukebox redundant.

In either case, if a chip (or the data) is accessible at the time, I don't see any reason to limit (other than common sense allows) how much data can be actually utilized at the same time.
Kanada Ten
The only problem with that is the redundancy of multislot chipjacks since SR3 doesn't limit the OMC MP ratings. One could have all of their active softs and knowsofts copied onto a single chip.
Dr. Black
Canon Companion Page 60

Applied Simsense

Option: Cluster

"A cluster chip has more than one skillsoft program encoded on the chip, along with a directory program that manages the interface between the user and the multiple programs. More than one skillsoft from a cluster chip can be used at a time. Each requires a Free Action to access"

Basically, for a character at chargen. You could skillwires 3, use Customized activesofts which give you an efective rating of 4 and are like 13mp in size each. Pick 20 of your favorite active skills, 20*13 = 260mp, put them all on one cluster chip, plus about 2mp for the directory program. Availability is only 8, and thus available at chargen. Add in Chipjack expert driver and you now have 20 skills at rating 4 that share a 3 dice pool and each skill can be accessed with a free action.

If you really need to use more than one skill at a time, I recommend learning (spending karma, or points at chargen) the skills that need to be used continuously, ie. stealth, small unit tactics, etc. If you really want to use all a couple chipped skills at the same time then just get a higher pulse rating and use the Pluscode option (page 62 CC).

GrinderTheTroll
QUOTE (Kanada Ten)
The only problem with that is the redundancy of multislot chipjacks since SR3 doesn't limit the OMC MP ratings. One could have all of their active softs and knowsofts copied onto a single chip.

The part that bothered me the most is there appears to be no limit to MP on the small size of an OMC. To me that seems rather silly. As it was mentioned, I could technically put all my stuff on one OMC.

Necro Tech
Matrix pg. 54 OMC's can hold up to 1000MP.
Ol' Scratch
Since Necro Tech just beat me, I'd also like to note that OMCs are fully recordable and erasable. This is why you can build it into a cyberlimb (x4 cost), make it DNI-ready (+50% cost), and simulate headware memory with it... for dirt cheap. That's only 3-nuyen per Mp [and 0.5 ECU per 1,000 Mp chip].

It's only OCCs that can't be copied. You get a discount for buying software as an OCC, thus by default it's assumed all are OMCs (hence part of the reason for the insane costs, not that the discount saves it much).
GrinderTheTroll
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
Since Necro Tech just beat me, I'd also like to note that OMCs are fully recordable and erasable. This is why you can build it into a cyberlimb (x4 cost), make it DNI-ready (+50% cost), and simulate headware memory with it... for dirt cheap. That's only 3-nuyen per Mp [and 0.5 ECU per 1,000 Mp chip].

It's only OCCs that can't be copied. You get a discount for buying software as an OCC, thus by default it's assumed all are OMCs (hence part of the reason for the insane costs, not that the discount saves it much).

Thanks all for the comments, I'll check Matrix for more info.

Thanks for tip Doc, that was what I looking to do. Makes getting regular headware MP seem silly.
The Jopp
Skip building it into a cyberlimb and add a body compartment instead, a chip is small enough to fit inside it and just add DNI connections to it.
The Jopp
QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll)
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein @ Nov 20 2004, 03:05 PM)
Since Necro Tech just beat me, I'd also like to note that OMCs are fully recordable and erasable.  This is why you can build it into a cyberlimb (x4 cost), make it DNI-ready (+50% cost), and simulate headware memory with it... for dirt cheap.  That's only 3-nuyen per Mp [and 0.5 ECU per 1,000 Mp chip].

It's only OCCs that can't be copied.  You get a discount for buying software as an OCC, thus by default it's assumed all are OMCs (hence part of the reason for the insane costs, not that the discount saves it much).

Thanks all for the comments, I'll check Matrix for more info.

Thanks for tip Doc, that was what I looking to do. Makes getting regular headware MP seem silly.

Doctor Funkenstein. Are you sure about that OMC cost? According to page 54 in Matrix it costs 0,5Y/MPs but on 168 it is listed as 5Y/MPs.

Isn't 0,5 a wee bit cheap compared to standard computer memory that costs 25Y/MPs?
Ol' Scratch
Positive. It's 0.5 nuyen per Mp (the insanely expensive 5-nuyen per chip is just ridiculous, and the 0.5 figure is also found in the errata). Multiply that by four. Then add 50%. You get 3-nuyen per Mp. smile.gif

Computer memory, likewise, is insanely overpriced just like headware memory is. You also have to remember that these are more like disks or rewritable CDs. Datajacks and chipjacks effectively do all the processing (just like when they read a chip in the first place).
The Jopp
Eh...I just checked the Errata for Matrix and there is no price change anywhere for OMC chips.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (The Jopp)
Eh...I just checked the Errata for Matrix and there is no price change anywhere for OMC chips.

From the Shadowrun 3rd Edition errata...

p. 296: Skillsofts and Chips Table [12]
The price for optical memory chips should be Mp x 0.5, and the Concealability of the skillsoft jukebox was changed to 6.
The Jopp
Ah, that explains it. Since SR3 and Matrix has two costs of 0,5 and one for 5 then I would assume that 0,5 is correct.
Ol' Scratch
Personally I think they should ditch memory all together and just assume (probably rightly so) that by 2060 we'll have effectively unlimited memory capabilities. Instead, processing should be based on the ratings of the software and the hardware's limitations. It's not only easier, but it requires less paperwork and bookkeeping.
The Jopp
Well, harddrives today are dirt cheap and the optical chips or computer memory they use in SR are basically optic hard drives and the prices should reflect that. I mean, 20K for 1000MPs of COMPUTER memory?

Now, your average movie would have somewhere around 200MPs (According to SR3 one MP is one minute of high quality 3D video, in this case I added the DVD extra material just for fun) and if we compare that to todays harddrives and a "good" quality movie takes up around 4-5GB DVD quality. A HD today costs around 100-120 USD (translated from SKR) and is somewhere around 120-160GB.

So, a full Trideo movie is 200MPs and a movie today is around 4-5GB DVD quality (DVD rip, not usual AVI files) A simple calculations should give us that by 2060 a 160GB HD in 2060 computer memory style would cost around...160000Y. That's a lot. I think I got that calculation correctly: 5GB is DVD quality and 200MPs is the same as high quality movie. 160GB HD split by 5GB is 32 X 200MPs= 6400MPS. The same equivalent of a harddrive in 2063 would be 6400MPS and in computer memory that would become 160K in nuyen (6400 X 25Y/MPs).

Am I wrong about that assumption in the calculation?
Ol' Scratch
Don't open that can of worms, man. You'll hate what you find inside. biggrin.gif

Case in point, compare your calculations to those for audio recordings (hint: they take up exactly the same amount of Mp as full-blown video). Then compare that to the size of single shots (only 60 per 1 Mp). Then compare that to plain-text sizes. Then take a look in some of the older books where they bothered to show Captain Chaos deleting text, and bulge your eyes at the Mp sizes that were deleted.

And if you really wanna scratch your noodle, ponder why 5 Mp of of Active Memory in a relatively huge Pocket Computer costs 500-nuyen, whereas a Pager (which comes with the same amount of Active Memory) costs only 10-nuyen. Worse, those numbers come from the very same section of the book!

There is neither rhyme nor reason here. Just bash your disbelief upside the head until it aggrees to suspend itself, and carry on. biggrin.gif
Herald of Verjigorm
For some odd reason, the video in SR is significantly more detail than anything current (and completely uncompressed) and the audio seems to be 25,000 point surround sound (also uncompressed).

If you don't agree with those changes, just house-define the MP usage of audio and video down to lower amounts.
Kagetenshi
The ability to compress video/audio or to use anything but ultra-high-quality was lost in the Crash.

~J
Botch
In regards to how actual ratio of memory usage is screwed in SR, there is a thread with the memory usage actually calculated at worst case scenarios, but the search engines usual helpfulness has left me stumped as to what the url is.

FYI simsense would appear to require 43.2GB/sec uncompressed. This has been calculated on maximum quality stated in SR, actual memory requirements to produce video in full colour to the maximum resolution of the human eye, normal spectrum audio (14hz-24Khz) and then extrapolated include all nerve endings in a human body using optical nerve sensitivities to patch RGB feed to the pressure, pain, feedback roles of the nervous system.

Audio of a quality that exceeds the average human ability to detect anything better is 1MB per minute, simsense as described in SR to allow rigging, BTLs, and decking would require 2.6 million times as much memory as audio, not 60-180 times as stated in SR. So, if you are going to house rule memory requirements, ditch it all except for simsense and activesofts and then it almost makes sense.

Spookymonster
Data persistence techniques could explain several of the inconsistencies in Megapulses, OMCs, and skillsofts. This is a new concept in (real-world) computer science that is starting to get some real attention these days. DP incorporates program code into your data so as to make it accessible even if the application you created the data with is no longer available. So switching from WidgetPro software to WidgetMaster wouldn't require you to convert your data first. Conversion is an expensive, time-consuming, and inconvenient process ripe with data-integrity exposures. It also wouldn't require a vendor to expose proprietary code or data; the embedded code would act as an intermediate between the data and the application. Even if the originating application is no longer published, the data it creates will still be alive and available, since everything you need to access the data is bundled in the same file. The trade-off is that your data file will be significantly larger than if it held only the data.

[non-canon]
So why does 1MP of SR video not (necessarily) equal 1MB of RL video? Because every minute of SR video embeds a simple player application that converts the vendor's proprietary (possibly encrypted) codec to a generic bitstream output.

And why does an Expert Chipjack Driver improve the performance of jacked skills? Because it processes the embedded code better/faster than standard (cheaper) chipjacks, maybe even ignoring the code and using it's own improved routines to access the data directly.
[/non-canon]

Anyhow, that's one (non-canon and completely unsubstantiated) way to look at it.
Ol' Scratch
So those imbedded audio players must be unbelievable works of art, considering audio size = video size. wink.gif
Botch
And with the price of SR memory, that is not just clutching at straws, that's sitting in a newly plowed field with a machete waiting for the bamboo to grow. I am aware of DP, its usefulness and inherent flaws.

My beef with memory usage is not its size, but with ratios between them.

FYI a basic audio player is 330KB and a basic media player is 380KB so there should be no difference in the overhead from this software. Drivers would not be included in the data-stream, that is platform specific programming and more than a bitch to implement. So how exactly do you get 1MB/min audio to equate with 20x digital zoom full colour video at 4GB/min, especially when the overhead to audio streams would only be 30-40%.

If the entire world's computing systems crashed due to a viral strike and destroyed a large chunk of technoligcal development worth trillions just how likely is it that people would be willing to download strange unvetted software when they want to watch telly or hear the lastest single? Or load potentially devistating software into your cyberware which was bought with a piece of your very own soul when you turn on the radio. If it is going to be anybody, it wouldn't be a paranoid runner.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Botch)
Audio of a quality that exceeds the average human ability to detect anything better is 1MB per minute

Unless I messed up my math, that's under 160 kbps. That's not even close to accurate. Uncompressed sources, man!

~J
Spookymonster
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
So those imbedded audio players must be unbelievable works of art, considering audio size = video size. wink.gif

In a world where many consumers have 'mods allowing them to hear frequencies far beyond the bounds of human hearing, hi-fidelity holds a whole new meaning...
Spookymonster
QUOTE (Botch)
Drivers would not be included in the data-stream, that is platform specific programming and more than a bitch to implement.

What if the embedded code was merely a bitstream ripper/decoder, rather than a full-blown player? It doesn't actually play the file, but it does decrypt and decompress it into a 'lowest common denominator' stream. It also strips out any proprietary meta data, tags and special features (secondary tracks, album liner notes, etc). The stream can then be piped into a player with a 'lowest common denominator' plug-in. Imagine something like this on a command line:

./foo.mp3::Wav | /dev/wav1

Where you're invoking the Wav function of the foo.mp3 music file and feeding the resulting stream into the virtual wav file player (which your soundcard's drivers dynamically define upon installation). It's not really that far fetched from what we currently can do with platform-neutral technologies like Java and XML (granted, this is a rather simplistic example).

QUOTE
If the entire world's computing systems crashed due to a viral strike and destroyed a large chunk of technoligcal development worth trillions just how likely is it that people would be willing to download strange unvetted software when they want to watch telly or hear the lastest single?

You mean like MS Internet Explorer? wink.gif
GrinderTheTroll
I can't remember the reference, but I seem to recall SR making a distinction between "cyber" and "non-cyber" memory. I am guessing it's a cost issue but it never sat well with me. I assumed it was because the one type of memory was cheaper than the other and they wanted to restrict how it was used for balance purposes, but that lead me to think the whole system needed some help.
Buzzed
Shadowbeat is old. And in this game, technology is always improving with time. So the 1000 mp limit no longer applies IMO.
Ol' Scratch
As mentioned above, the 1,000 Mp limit is still in effect. It's listed in Matrix on page 54.
GrinderTheTroll
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
As mentioned above, the 1,000 Mp limit is still in effect. It's listed in Matrix on page 54.

I've been think more about the DNI'd 1000 MP chips more and more, and don't see why you'd ever get regular Headware MP again consider the Essence cost vs. a Cyberskull and a dozen or so of those .5 ECU chips.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012