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Catsnightmare
I'm about to take up the GM screen in a week or so and have been persuing the various vehicle threads lately in anticipation of two of my players doing lots of non-rigging driving.
Taking into account the various shortcommings of the standard vehicle rules this is the list of some of the home-rules on driving/vehicle combat I plan on experimenting with.

-Vehicle armor adds it's rating in dice to all damage resistance tests.
-Personal armor on a vehicle only adds dice on firearms damage resistance tests.
-Reaction and Initiative bonuses from boosted, wired, cyberware, bioware, physical adept abilities DO apply for drivers when determining initiative while physically driving, characters driving with a datajack also get the standard +1 to reaction as well.
-A character physically driving or datajack assisted can use their Combat Pool in vehicle combat up to the limit of half their Reaction attribute or half the relevant vehicle skill whichever is lower (riggers just use their Control Pool as normal).


I figure these little changes would go a way into bridging the extreeme gap between riggers and non-rig drivers, as well as reduce the 'all or nothing damage' problem with vehicles.
Just looking for oppinions and suggestions on this before I take them into play.

[edited to reflect suggestions]
Fix-it
The last one is almost there. Half thier reaction though.

The rest don't make sense to me. It's really not that hard to take out vehicles, or at least cause a crash test.
Solstice
QUOTE (Catsnightmare @ Dec 2 2004, 05:47 PM)
I'm about to take up the GM screen in a week or so and have been persuing the various vehicle threads lately in anticipation of two of my players doing lots of non-rigging driving.
Taking into account the various shortcommings of the standard vehicle rules this is the list of some of the home-rules on driving/vehicle combat I plan on experimenting with.

-Vehicle armor adds it's rating in dice to all damage resistance tests.
-Personal armor on a vehicle only adds dice on firearms damage resistance tests.
-Reaction and Initiative bonuses from boosted, wired, cyberware, bioware, physical adept abilities DO apply for drivers when determining initiative while physically driving, characters driving with a datajack also get the standard +1 to reaction as well.
-A character physically driving or datajack assisted can use their Combat Pool in vehicle combat up to the limit of their Reaction attribute or the relevant vehicle skill whichever is lower (riggers just use their Control Pool as normal).


I figure these little changes would go a way into bridging the extreeme gap between riggers and non-rig drivers, as well as reduce the 'all or nothing damage' problem with vehicles.
Just looking for oppinions and suggestions on this before I take them into play.



I don't like the combat pool one. That's what really sets riggers apart as THE vehicle operators in SR and I don't like giving anyone a control pool.

I like your rules for making vehicles less like Orogami swans and more like steel constructs which way tonnage.

I'm also iffy on the non riggers getting cyberware bonuses. Their cyberware is designed to boost reflexes in a physical confrontation not really to perform refined motor skill tasks involving perfect timing and complex combinations of movements. but that's just my opinion.
Catsnightmare
QUOTE (Solstice)
I don't like the combat pool one. That's what really sets riggers apart as THE vehicle operators in SR and I don't like giving anyone a control pool.

I like your rules for making vehicles less like Orogami swans and more like steel constructs which way tonnage.

I'm also iffy on the non riggers getting cyberware bonuses. Their cyberware is designed to boost reflexes in a physical confrontation not really to perform refined motor skill tasks involving perfect timing and complex combinations of movements. but that's just my opinion.

Fix-it: Point about the pool taken and reduced the limit.

Solstice: But don't forget control pool isn't everything, riggers automatically get target number reductions on all driving tests as well. That goes a lot further than extra dice. (at least in my oppinion)

Solstice: Thanks, I've been though the whole ordeal with vehicles and drones getting trashed in a single lucky shot cause they don't have shit to roll damage resistance with. (lost a drone to a 2D damage short-one-round assualt rifle burst and an armored americar to 3S Savalette burst which caused a crash and totaled the car)

Lets just agree to disagree on the reaction/init bonuses smile.gif
DrJest
Me, I still favour making the reflex/reaction thing completely contingent on normal reflex mods and reducing the costs for VCRs down a lot. This does two things - gives non-riggers a slightly better chance (not massively, I admit, since a rigger will have target number reductions and a control pool), and makes a rigger more effective out of his vehicle (since he will likely have a reflex modifier as well as his VCR). But we went over this in another thread recently.
Thistledown
Instead of adding armor as dice, we just double or triple the body, depending on the vehicle, when we do damage tests.
DarkShade
I am very iffy on the reaction mods... a street sam driving a vehicle connected through a datajack gets bonuses from his wires three exactly how?

I understand that you want to make them better than an unaugmented person at this; my suggestions would be: roll separately for the vehicle and if the augmented person gets more actions let him use them for non driving things. example: wired 3 sammie with init 34 driving vehicle, roll for vehicle without wires and init is then say 12, meaning sammie could use 2 of his actions for the vehicle and still have two other left over.. for what? oh check any action movie, you know, open door & punch someone trying to get in, or fire a hand weapon, etc etc..

combat pool hmm... dont know about this, riggers get their bonuses mostly from 1) pool and 2) - to driving tests, othe rpeople shouldnt really get these.. it is like saying all street sams can use spells, but only say 3 of them... nobody will play a mage then... IF you opt for this you might think about instead of a diufferent pool, the dice really are substracted from the combat pool, so dice spent are not available for it.

I do like the idea of giving vehicles more body dice to resist.. .. hmm.. alternatively one could mess about with the staging rules.. say something like to stage UP a vehicles damage with non av ammo/weapons requires 3 or 4 successes per level, and/or that for an armored vehicle staging Down damage from non av weapons/ammo requires only one success/damage level..

DS

Cray74
QUOTE (Catsnightmare)
-Vehicle armor adds it's rating in dice to all damage resistance tests.
-Personal armor on a vehicle only adds dice on firearms damage resistance tests.

I kinda like those two.
Gem the Troll
The problem with letting a Sam use their wired reflexes is that they tend to over correct. Remember when you were a new driver, and you would constantly weave all over the place on the road because you were jittery and didn't want to hit anything...Wired reflexes and things like that would amp that a lot. That's why you have the vcr...and driving skills...and the edge vehicle empathy (companion)...if people don't want to suck at driving at more than the average person's skill level, make them take some driving based ability and/or specialized equipment. Don't make the intense driving riggers are needed for easier for other people. I understand riggers will still have the decided edge, but shit man. My first player wanted to be a rigger. He didn't have the funds to afford it (VCRs being expensive, and him being poor). So I took several driving skills at 4 (GMs max at CharGen). I got the edge vehicle empathy, and a datalink...and eventually started modifying the vehicle so that I got better target numbers. I finally got a line on a VCR...it was being offered in lieu of payment for a run (and because my team save some high level Corp suits from getting killed while they ran away from Renraku). Unfortunately, the next night we were running because our weapon specialist started using grenades on a little run we were doing as a favor for our fixer, and the Star got alerted. My character was driving, two unconcious people in the back seat (our extract targets) and I failed a perception test. Before I could even try again the next round (turning to face forward), my buddy in the passenger seat (wired but no driving skill) grabs the steering wheel to "avoid hitting the roadblock) and we slam into a wall. Car's totalled, and these guys all get into a running gunfight with Lonestar. I got picked up three blocks away (after sneaking off and trying to play casual). One guy was killed, I was incarcerated, and the guy who was wired, he tried stealing a car. Good thing for him it was gridlinked so he didn't kill himself.

So like I was saying, wired reflexes are always good when driving.
Fortune
That's why I think a Control Pool equal to Reaction (1/2?) would be all that's necessary. Normal defaulting rules apply, so no Control Pool if they don't have the Skill.

And a VCR 1 is dirt cheap! There's no excuse for anyone that wants to be a 'Rigger', or otherwise 'drive real good' (that can spare the essense) not to get one.
Lindt
QUOTE (Fortune)
And a VCR 1 is dirt cheap! There's no excuse for anyone that wants to be a 'Rigger', or otherwise 'drive real good' (that can spare the essense) not to get one.

Bingo. If you can get over the E hit, they are one of the less expensive bits of cyber.
Im favoring just out right doubleing the body of the vech.
Gem the Troll
If you're going to do something, do it right. I was going for the VCR 3 (alphaware)...if my character was going inactive, do it once and be done...besides, he likes toys. It was all part of the character development. He started off as a petty little car thief.
Fortune
A VCR 3 is almost always a waste of time ... and an extreme waste of money ... unless you are a military jet pilot, and even then ...

The most you ever need is a VCR 2. Even with a VCR 1, as the rules stand now you'll run rings around any non-Rigger, and even give some Riggers a run for their money, depending on skill levels.

Eyeless Blond
Plus you can always upgrade it later. It's actually easier to do that, actually, and you get some benefit right away as opposed to driving like a drunken duck the whole time.

I like all these rules and think they're much better than the current set. In fact I'd want to go even further and redo a whole lot of the rules to make the while thing more consistent... but that's another thread.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Fortune)
A VCR 3 is almost always a waste of time ... and an extreme waste of money ... unless you are a military jet pilot, and even then ...

Er, NO. A VCR-3 is worth every penny. Two extra points of Control Pool, an additional -2 on most TNs, an additional +2 +1d6 to Initiative… there's little reason to get anything else if you're making a dedicated Rigger.

Making it alpha-grade, on the other hand, is a waste at chargen IMO.

~J
Fortune
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
A VCR-3 is worth every penny.

Not at chargen. Get a VCR 2 and then upgrade later to a Beta VCR 3 using the exact same Essence.
Kagetenshi
I don't know about you, but I seldom have ¥600k hanging around early enough in the game to justify starting with a VCR 2.

Edit: never mind, you said Beta. Make that ¥1.2 million.

~J
Ol' Scratch
VCR 3 is definitely "worth every penny" for a vehicle-oriented rigger. In my experience, however, drone riggers can get away with VCR 1 or 2 much more easily, especially if they spend the money they would have invested in the VCR 3 to get some high-quality robotic drones.
Kagetenshi
Ah, that is true. I do often fail to make the distinction; I usually think of Riggers as doing both tasks.

~J
DrJest
QUOTE
And a VCR 1 is dirt cheap! There's no excuse for anyone that wants to be a 'Rigger', or otherwise 'drive real good' (that can spare the essense) not to get one


Except that (unless it changed) a VCR is incompatible with any other form of reflex boost. You must make a choice between one or the other.

Enlightenment hits like a bolt from the blue: Wired Reflexes can have a switch put in that turns them off, right? It's a short step from there to imagine something similar for a VCR.

Now think "toggle". Having both would be really frickin' Essence heavy, but it's a thought.
Fortune
As far as I know, the switch you are refering to is already in canon for that very reason.
DrJest
Doh... I managed to lay hold of a 2nd hand M&M, I obviously need to cover-to-cover that sucker in more detail.
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