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HMHVV Hunter
I've been considering writing a series of shorts about my vampire hunter adept, Helios, entitled "The Helios Chronicles." This would be the first serious creative writing I've done in years.

Any fiction writers here have any pointers for writing, or tips for writing Shadowrun stories specifically?
kevyn668
While spell check is your friend, it often helps to have another set of meat eyes proof your work.

Good luck! smile.gif
Mercer
It shouldn't suck. Actually, I've found writing novels is not hard, you just look at what everyone else has done before you and do something different.

I'm reluctant to give advice on writing, since I am unlikely to take advice on writing; my expertise on the matter is beyond reproach while at the same time completely groundless. I write mainly to amuse myself, and if other people like it that is a great boon. If they don't, well, they deserve to be turned inside out and fired out of a cannon into a field of razorblades and rocksalt.

Nowhere is this more true (for me) than writing short stories about my Shadowrun characters. Typically, I am reluctant to tell people what a nerd I am, much less subject them to written proof. But since I do that daily here on these boards, there really doesn't seem to be anything stopping me right now.

Short stories have always been a way for me to explore my character outside of the confines of the shadowrun, so I hardly ever write about shadowrunning. I write about the things that generally don't come up in the games, or dwell on things that at the table get passed over relatively quickly. These are typically first person monologues, though they will occasionally drift into more conventional, story driven things (depending on what I'm interested in). Sometimes this is character background stuff, and sometimes its wherever the character is on any given day.

I usually start out with a background that I do when I make the character. Five pages on average, this will include the most significant chain of events that led the character to pc status, with a little flavor text added in about who he is and his general philosophy. From there, as I play the character, I will typically tack on here and there 2 to 10 page anecdotes (for lack of a better term) that flesh out specific experiences from the background or go off into things not covered. Sometimes these take the form of After Action Reports, and sometimes they are things from Deep Background.

At some point in all this, the 2-10 page anecdotes shift into a longer, more conventional short story form with a beginning, middle and end; though I wouldn't go as far to say I ever feel bound to any sort of conventional form since this is basically journal writing. I'll usually do one main rewrite when I transfer them from longhand to word file, though I edit constantly, writing in margins and chainging small things every time I glance at it. Hopefully, after six months or so, I'll have something I can read without cringing.

My two main projects were for two characters. One was a 60 pager about an ork street sam going home to the tribal lands for the holidays, and the other was a lot longer. For most characters, I don't go beyond the first two stages (background, and tack-ons).
Kagetenshi
My most important piece of advice: don't get too caught up in the details. Let the Shadowrun be implicit, not explicit. Your character can have a pistol, they don't need a Predator (even if it is a Predator, you don't always have to say it, at least not at first). They don't need an Ares Alpha, they can have a SOTA Ares assault rifle with an underbarrel grenade launcher. Unless the Mage is the main character, they don't need to cast Powerbolt, they can just make things fall apart with their powers. So on and so forth.

QUOTE
Robert stared down the barrel of the pistol. The Ork grinned, twitching it slightly; Robert backed against the wall. His eyes flicked to the assault rifle on the ground next to him.

"Don't even think about it."

He shrugged.

"Turn around."

The Ork's arm vanished in a spray of blood as Robert dove for the rifle. He brought it to bear and held down the trigger until the sound of empty clicking filled the room. The gun fell from his nerveless hands as he rose to his feet, his vision swimming with every step.


QUOTE
Robert stared down the barrel of the Ares Predator. The Ork grinned, twitching it slightly; Robert backed against the wall. His eyes flicked to the Ares Alpha on the ground next to him.

"Don't even think about it."

He shrugged.

"Turn around."

The Ork's arm vanished under the force of the Powerbolt as Robert dove for the Alpha. Swinging it towards the Ork, he laid down suppressive fire until the ammo counter read zero. Reeling from the drain, he rose to leave.


Not as strict a conversion as I could have made, but I think you get the idea.

~J
Kagetenshi
Also: be minimalist when it comes to gear descriptions unless it's important for some other reason. Always think: do we really need to know that something is a medium machine gun, or could we get away with knowing that it is a machine gun? When you've got a shotgun with a drum, do you really need to say that it is a 50-round drum or could you just say "drum"? Does something have to be a sporting rifle or could it just be a rifle? Does something need to be a sniper rifle or could it just be a high-powered rifle? Does your streetsam need Wired Reflexes by name or could he just be wired? Does the Rigger's vehicle need to have Drive-By-Wire or could it just have advanced control mechanisms or somesuch? Minimize the detail on the unimportant, maximize on the important.

Make your character believable. If they're going to go and kill wageslaves for a living, don't have them go home to a nice normal family where everyone loves one another. Not every main character has to be the best at something, or for that matter even be above average in something.

Don't break the major rules of the setting, but don't be bothered by the details too much either. So the rules don't let you make called shots to specific parts of metahumans. Why let that bother your writing? On the other hand, the rules don't allow for effective breaking of good broadcast/drone encryption, so don't have someone go around cracking this stuff in seconds unless you've got a really good reason.

More as I think of them.

~J
Cynic project
The thing I would say that makes or breaks most stories,is the characters. You need to have him go threw things that make him look like a (meta)human. You know details about how it would be nice if he was at home in a nice hot shower,and not in the middle of down town in the pouring rain.

As noted shadowrun doesn't really have four colored heros. So your main character shouldn't be prefect,but he should have traits you can at least empathies with. He is a vampire hunter,well that is a good and noble thing, but maybe even if he started out as a pure and true hero,he should have had some bumps along the way. Friendships lost,maybe not caring who he hurts. It doesn't have to be blunt about those things, but as the saying goes,"If you look to long into the void,the void will look back into you".
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Friedrich Nietzsche)
Wer mit Ungeheuern kämpft, mag zusehn, dass er nicht dabei zum Ungeheuer wird. Und wenn du lange in einen Abgrund blickst, blickt der Abgrund auch in dich hinein.

(He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.)


~J
Black Isis
I'd have to say my biggest problem with any sort of roleplaying game fanfic (or even published novels) is the problem of obvious Mary Sues or invincible ubercharacters. Yes, I'm sure your character is really great, but it's not very interesting to the reader to read 20 pages of your character beating the crap out of everything in sight effortlessly and being an ultimate badass.
HMHVV Hunter
In most of the SR novels I've read, at least one member of the team dies, and the hero usually is pretty beat up after facing the main villain. I'd hardly call them "invincible ubercharacters."
Mercer
I've always preferred the translation, "Beware he who fights with monsters, lest thereby become a monster. For as you gaze into the Abyss, the Abyss gazes also into you and says 'Hi'." It's a little friendlier version of the Abyss.

Parroting above advice, I'd stay away from game terms, because it reinforces that this is about characters in a game and not people. I would not, for instance, write:

"Helios smited the abomination with a powerbolt!" Or, for that matter, "Helios smited the abomination with a Force 6 Powerbolt (plus an expendable fetish and threw all his spell pool into the roll, trusting his increased Willpower spell in the sustaining focus to save him from the drain)!" That would be an example of what not to do.

I once read a D&D novel (I'm not proud) that had the spell names in italics. "Firggit felt a little better after the cleric cast a cure light wounds upon him." Might have been Pool of Radiance. Man, that blew.
Fortune
You might want to cruise by the Shadowrun Writers' Forum. There are quite a few people well-versed in exactly the type of things you are looking for. smile.gif
Black Isis
QUOTE (HMHVV Hunter)
In most of the SR novels I've read, at least one member of the team dies, and the hero usually is pretty beat up after facing the main villain. I'd hardly call them "invincible ubercharacters."

I didn't mean that -- I guess I should have put it in a better way. The most common problems I see with all roleplaying fiction in general (especially fanfic), are the obvious Mary Sues and invincible ubercharacters. I think I've said before that I think that the official Shadowrun fiction is some of the best tie-in fiction I've read (and that many of the books stand alone pretty well without the Shadowrun label). I'm just saying, don't fall into that trap.

I'll echo the leaving out spell names and gun names, unless it's important to the plot that that gun is an Ares CAR-32 or whatever. And with spells, giving them a name just cheapens the effect of magic. It's much cooler if you just describe what happens -- you don't need to make it look like you are transcribing a roleplaying session (even though some good fiction can come out of doing that).
HMHVV Hunter
QUOTE (Black Isis)
QUOTE (HMHVV Hunter @ Dec 4 2004, 07:16 PM)
In most of the SR novels I've read, at least one member of the team dies, and the hero usually is pretty beat up after facing the main villain.  I'd hardly call them "invincible ubercharacters."

I didn't mean that -- I guess I should have put it in a better way. The most common problems I see with all roleplaying fiction in general (especially fanfic), are the obvious Mary Sues and invincible ubercharacters. I think I've said before that I think that the official Shadowrun fiction is some of the best tie-in fiction I've read (and that many of the books stand alone pretty well without the Shadowrun label). I'm just saying, don't fall into that trap.

I've never heard the term "Mary Sue" before; what's that mean?

And if you're talking about ubercharacters as in, say, like "Blade" slashing through some extras, I don't see why that can't happen on occasion (not every story, but once in a while). It might be a nice scene if Helios is in the middle of an adrenaline rush or is REALLY angry and determined to let nothing stop him.
kevyn668
No offense, but Blade is probably a little different than your Helios. And he still gets slapped around a fair amount.

The vamps in Blade's world seem weaker than the SR variety. Most of the SR vampires are mages in addition to having the physical prowess of your average street sam.

However, if Helios sliced and diced a bunch of (non-vampire) minions that would be believable. Not that my opion counts for much but killing the main vamp should be the big finale. In addition to non-HMHVV invected types; Goblins, Loup Garou, and Dzoo No Qua might make good fodder.

Also remember you're asking a group people that have a very broad definition of the term "munchkin." Not that I'm saying your boy is one, but if he goes around kicking the shit out everything without breaking a sweat he might be percieved that way.

As long as your story doesn't have a scene in it reminicent of the "Burly Brawl" it should be fine. smile.gif

And agian, Good Luck!

(kevyn's disclaimer: you can and should disreguard any and all of my posts if your needs be.)
Ed Simons
Three important things about characters, summarized from this site:
http://web.archive.org/web/20030402000528/...om/devchar.html

1) Characters should have something you like about them.
2) Characters should have something you dislike about them.

(Both apply to protagonists and major antagonists.)

3) What does your character want?

And my addition:

4) Make your character work to get what they want.
HMHVV Hunter
QUOTE (kevyn668)

However, if Helios sliced and diced a bunch of (non-vampire) minions that would be believable. Not that my opion counts for much but killing the main vamp should be the big finale. In addition to non-HMHVV invected types; Goblins, Loup Garou, and Dzoo No Qua might make good fodder.

That's what I meant, really. I'm thinking of mostly using ghouls as extras, but a Dzoo-noo-qua or even a Bandersnatch might make for a sort of "honor guard" minion, I suppose. But yeah, vampires will definitely be rare (probably no more than two per story).

In any case, I'll definitely have Helios get smacked around at least a bit. It's not much fun if the hero slices effortlessly through the evil mastermind, now is it? smile.gif
Ed Simons
QUOTE (HMHVV Hunter)
I've never heard the term "Mary Sue" before; what's that mean?
Ol' Scratch
The problem with the netwanker term "Mary Sue" is that it can be applied to just about any heroic character and, in many cases, just the lead character in a work of fiction. Just off the top of my head, Conan, Captain Kirk, James Bond, Luke Skywalker, Remo Williams, and just about every iconic superhero (Superman, Batman, Spider-Man, Wolverine, etc.) qualify as "Mary Sues" in that they're all ubercharacters who have stories and plots revolving around them, are the central focus of just about every story they're in, they eventually defeat any antagonist they come across, and they almost always come out ahead in the end no matter the situation. Before that term started floating around, many of those characters were better described as "epic characters."

In essence, "Mary Sue" is a thinly-veiled insult that netnerds throw around regarding a major character in a story they don't particularly like. Especially if it's a genre that the particular netnerd has preconceived notions about, firmly believing that everyone should suck (you know, like in Shadowrun). In reality it applies to precious few characters and stories.

Now if you write a story in which [your character of choice] waltzes in and single-handedly, I dunno, defeats Harlequinn in a swordfight, has Nadja Daviar fall in love with him, has Lowfyr offer up complete control of Saeder-Krupp to his infinite wisdom, and, finally, has Fastjack admit that he's the best decker in the world after engaging the aging coder in cybercombat using nothing but a datajack and a Pocket Secretary he personally souped-up... that would be an example of a Mary Sue character and story.
kevyn668
Sounds like "munchkin" to me. wink.gif
Ol' Scratch
That would be the character if he were transfered to a game.
kevyn668
Ahhh, so "munchkin" is a RP char while "Mary Sue" is the fiction char. Got itl.
Ol' Scratch
Sorta. "Mary Sues" are almost always munchkins if converted to an RPG, but it's not always the other way around.

Ryan Mercury is a good example of a Shadowrun "Mary Sue." He has Nadja Daviar as his girlfriend, was the personal confidant of Dunkelzahn, is one of the Draco Foundation'ss most valuable asset, and all that other crap.
kevyn668
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
Sorta. "Mary Sues" are almost always munchkins if converted to an RPG, but it's not always the other way around.

Ryan Mercury is a good example of a Shadowrun "Mary Sue." He has Nadja Daviar as his girlfriend, was the personal confidant of Dunkelzahn, is one of the Draco Foundation'ss most valuable asset, and all that other crap.

Let's not forget that he also viewed assassinating Damien Knight as viable option. wink.gif

I see your point. The distiction is subtle but important.
Fix-it
I suggest you read some really horrible books. so that way you know what NOT to do.

I believe they used to have a contest to see who could write the worst fantasy story, but I think they stopped after the same story won 3 years in a row.

I'm sure someone can post a link. I lost it last time my drive fritzed.
Sandoval Smith
I'm going to have to disagree with your examples of what some people might consider a Mary-Sue (or Stu) Doc. Your kind of off base with your first set, but then right on with your third paragraph.

A character isn't a Mary- Sue just because they're the focus of the story, and have great powers. It's when they have great powers(optional), all the right people like them (usually), they're always right, etc tha you have them cross the line. In fan fiction, they walk into existing universes like Star Trek, Harry Potter, Star Wars, and the story immediately stops to revolve around them. They trained under that _other_ Jedi Master who somehow hid from the empire, and so that they are just as strong a Jedi as whatever Skywalker you want to name. Or somehow everyone listens to them like they had the authority and experince of a starship Captain, and are almost never wrong. Or they are Harry's long lost twin, the one who is actually supposed to slay Voldemort.

A frequent trait of Mary-Sues is that they are also thinly disguised avatars of the author. They get to sleep with the author's favorite character, maybe even look and act just like the author in really bad stories.

Basically, how to keep your character from falling into this catagory is to keep them reasonable. If their are going to attack Aztech and bring it down, then they'd better have the backstory to put them in a position to make it possible, and not just be a runner with a grudge, who happens to have a few connections. Likewise, he never should have know Dunkelzahn well enough that they had tea on Wednesdays, and Lofwyr should not shudder in fear when he hears the character's name.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
The problem with the netwanker term "Mary Sue" is that it can be applied to just about any heroic character and, in many cases, just the lead character in a work of fiction.

The term Mary Sue specifically applies to fanfiction characters, though people misuse it to apply to published works. Arguably one could apply it to people writing for someone else's world.

Which, as it turns out, you later agree with, I just want to clarify that the above is a misuse of the term rather than a weakness of the term itself.

~J
HMHVV Hunter
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein @ Dec 5 2004, 12:38 AM)
The problem with the netwanker term "Mary Sue" is that it can be applied to just about any heroic character and, in many cases, just the lead character in a work of fiction.

The term Mary Sue specifically applies to fanfiction characters, though people misuse it to apply to published works. Arguably one could apply it to people writing for someone else's world.

Which, as it turns out, you later agree with, I just want to clarify that the above is a misuse of the term rather than a weakness of the term itself.

~J

What I'm wondering is why it's so unacceptable for fanfiction authors to do the same thing some fiction authors do. I mean, the published fiction world has their Ryan Mercurys and such; what's wrong with fanfiction authors doing the same thing?
Kagetenshi
Because while it may not be a Mary Sue, a Ryan Mercury is still bad writing. Not so bad that there aren't things that can make up for it, but in general, the quality of fanfiction is far lower than the quality of published writing and thus less capable of making up for a Ryan Mercury/Mary Sue.

~J
Black Isis
QUOTE (HMHVV Hunter)
What I'm wondering is why it's so unacceptable for fanfiction authors to do the same thing some fiction authors do. I mean, the published fiction world has their Ryan Mercurys and such; what's wrong with fanfiction authors doing the same thing?

Because it is bad writing, frankly. Very few people enjoy reading stories where the main character is the bestest person ever in every way (or nearly so). Ask people which Shadowrun novels are their favorites on Dumpshock and the answer is hardly ever the Ryan Mercury books -- it's Burning Bright, 2XS, Night's Pawn, etc, which are stories where the main character is someone you can relate to. Most people, I would hazard to guess, read the Ryan Mercury books because they wanted to find out what happened with Dunkelzahn, not because they found the character of Ryan Mercury particularly compelling.

Think about your favorite books and movies. How many of them have characters who are perfect and have it all? Characters like that don't give much room for character development, which is part of what makes a story a good one. If everything in your book is over the top, especially when people are expecting something more gritty, you're going to stretch people's suspension of disbelief to the breaking point, which is when they throw the book against the wall in disbelief. Pulpy superhero characters are okay in Superman comics from the 50s -- but that's not what people are looking for when they read a Sherlock Holmes mystery, or a cyberpunk novel.

The suggestions that Ed Simons had about characters before were good ones. Make them human -- not superhuman. They may have magic powers and cyberware, but they are still people.
Eyeless Blond
QUOTE (Black Isis)
Think about your favorite books and movies. How many of them have characters who are perfect and have it all? Characters like that don't give much room for character development, which is part of what makes a story a good one.

In other words, who watches the Tomb Raiser movies for the compelling characters? nyahnyah.gif
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Sandoval Smith @ Dec 5 2004, 09:05 AM)
I'm going to have to disagree with your examples of what some people might consider a Mary-Sue (or Stu) Doc.  Your kind of off base with your first set, but then right on with your third paragraph.

A character isn't a Mary- Sue just because they're the focus of the story, and have great powers.

Err, that's what I said. A lot of other people who throw the term around use it as such, not me. Again, more often than not they use it a as a thinly-veiled insult at a character or franchise they simply don't like.

QUOTE (Kagentensi)
The term Mary Sue specifically applies to fanfiction characters, though people misuse it to apply to published works. Arguably one could apply it to people writing for someone else's world.

Which, as it turns out, you later agree with, I just want to clarify that the above is a misuse of the term rather than a weakness of the term itself.

No, it applies to a specific type of character in a specific type of story. It originated from fan-fiction but it doesn't belong solely there. The only difference from fan-fiction and "real" fiction is that one is published and one is thrown up on the web or the like. If a character and story is a Mary Sue in a work of fan-fiction, it doesn't spontaneously transform into a non-Mary Sue if it gets published.
Crimsondude 2.0
I think it basically comes down to two things:

1. Read fiction. Some non-fiction could work, too (e.g., Mark Bowden's books), but generally read other people's work just to get an appreciation of what you like, and what you want to write. For example, do you want to write something that reads like a Robert Crais novel (i.e., something you can read cover-to-cover in less than 24 hours, but which is interesting and fun to read) or do you want to write something like To the Hermitage, which is considerably... different (funny as hell, though). Personally, I like both and I've written stories in the vein of both..I've also written crap that reads like an Andy McNab novel, which is just boring.

2. Write, and let people read it. I have written enough SR material and fiction to fill a small room--99% of it is stuff no one will ever see, mainly because it was discarded over the last 12 or so years. But it's not until you get constructive criticism from people that it can really be good. You can write the greatest piece of SR fiction ever on your first try, but... the chances of that are about as likely as winning a Pulitzer for said work. And it's a lot more satisfying to know people are actually reading your work, and giving you compliments or help in making it better.

Another post along a similar vein.
HMHVV Hunter
See, I'm not writing a full book; it's more like a series of short stories chronicling the 6 years Helios has spent hunting the undead. It's not an ongoing, connected plot, but a series of self-contained stories.
Crimsondude 2.0
Then just start writing. If you publish it here or somewhere else, I'm sure you'll get plenty of feedback.
Stumps
Cronicles in short story form have been popular for centuries.

Many authors start ideas out there.
Sherlock Holmes was started out that way in the newspaper.

Just write them, place them on a website, and tell us when they're up the first time and we'll all check in and read.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Black Isis @ Dec 4 2004, 07:12 PM)
I'd have to say my biggest problem with any sort of roleplaying game fanfic (or even published novels) is the problem of obvious Mary Sues or invincible ubercharacters.  Yes, I'm sure your character is really great, but it's not very interesting to the reader to read 20 pages of your character beating the crap out of everything in sight effortlessly and being an ultimate badass.

I actually kind of enjoy that. That's the reason I liked the Soldier of Fortune computer games so much. Because even though it *is* easy to die you still get the overwhelming impression that John Mullins is a superhuman whirlwind of incarnate death crawling from the jungles of Vietnam and walking out onto the world with a boonie hat and a beltful of Soviet F1 frag grenades. I suppose, however, that you could argue that his in-game persona was already well "developed" as a character by the interviews that the real person has given.

The super-character mode of story is *only* annoying if the main character is so stupid that you are offended to keep reading about him or her. But, if you actually *like* the main character, you'll never get tired of hearing about how he or she cleans out 5 houses in a row all by his or herself.

EDIT: I think that's why the uber-character in fanfiction is so annoying. Because the uber-character is meaningless in the context of fanfiction that is supposed to be about another set of characters and an already-established world. But I would argue that the uber-character annoyance value would already be greatly reduced if the character is an original character in an original setting or world that does not draw upon already established characters very much.



My biggest tip for the aspiring Shadowrun writer? I say keep it in the 80s! Leather jackets, elves with mullets, Japanese nuthugging, improbably effective martial arts and excessive lipservice to zen mental states. These factors would keep me coming back to a Shadowrun story time and time again.
Mercer
My biggest tip to any aspiring SR writer would be sex scenes. Lots and lots of explicit sex scenes (some to think of it, this may be why none of my Good Morning, Miami scripts were never accepted).

Actually, I wouldn't worry too much about getting advice. You can't please anyone trying to please everyone, but if you try to please someone... that usually doesn't work out too well either. Screw everybody, and write what you want.

And include lots of sex scenes, please. Like between a street sam, a sasquatch and a duck. Cuz thats hot. (Or, keeping in mind your concept, a vampiric duck. Its all good.)
kevyn668
Did you eat paint chips as a child? You completely forgot sex with the dikoted AVS ally spirit. tsk, tsk...
Fortune
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)
I think that's why the uber-character [edit - read Mary Sue] in fanfiction is so annoying. Because the uber-character is meaningless in the context of fanfiction that is supposed to be about another set of characters and an already-established world. But I would argue that the uber-character annoyance value would already be greatly reduced if the character is an original character in an original setting or world that does not draw upon already established characters very much.

I think this is the key to the 'Mary Sue' issue. Introducing a character who is the be-all-and-end-all of everything into an already established cast, like the Star Trek crew is the basis for the complaint.
Ed Simons
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)
I actually kind of enjoy that.  That's the reason I liked the Soldier of Fortune computer games so much.  Because even though it *is* easy to die you still get the overwhelming impression that John Mullins is a superhuman whirlwind of incarnate death crawling from the jungles of Vietnam and walking out onto the world with a boonie hat and a beltful of Soviet F1 frag grenades.

What works in making a good computer game isn't neccessarily what works in making a good story. (Much like what works in making a good movie isn't neccessarily what works in making a good roleplaying session.)

If the main character achieves his successes without having to work for them, the story lacks conflict and is boring. If all Pac Man did was run around eating dots and nothing in the game could possibly harm him, that would make for a boring game and no one would have ever played it.

That doesn't say the main character can't be powerful, but for all that power the readers should be concerned that he could fail, even if only in part. Superb warrior that he is, Conan loses one of his greatest loves to a monster even though he kills the creature and he has lost battles and been captured more than once. Superb intellect that he is, Sherlock Holmes was outwitted by Irene Adler and not all criminals are brought to justice. He isn't even the smartest character in his setting.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Ed Simons @ Dec 7 2004, 09:46 PM)
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)
I actually kind of enjoy that.  That's the reason I liked the Soldier of Fortune computer games so much.  Because even though it *is* easy to die you still get the overwhelming impression that John Mullins is a superhuman whirlwind of incarnate death crawling from the jungles of Vietnam and walking out onto the world with a boonie hat and a beltful of Soviet F1 frag grenades.

What works in making a good computer game isn't neccessarily what works in making a good story. (Much like what works in making a good movie isn't neccessarily what works in making a good roleplaying session.)

If the main character achieves his successes without having to work for them, the story lacks conflict and is boring. If all Pac Man did was run around eating dots and nothing in the game could possibly harm him, that would make for a boring game and no one would have ever played it.

That doesn't say the main character can't be powerful, but for all that power the readers should be concerned that he could fail, even if only in part. Superb warrior that he is, Conan loses one of his greatest loves to a monster even though he kills the creature and he has lost battles and been captured more than once. Superb intellect that he is, Sherlock Holmes was outwitted by Irene Adler and not all criminals are brought to justice. He isn't even the smartest character in his setting.

Hmm, you know, a lot of people say that, and it sounds very sensible, but I'm not sure that it's actually correct. Because I've found myself reacting better to stories where the main character was more godlike and reacting less enthusiastically where the main character had weak points.

Let me relate the specific example I'm thinking of. I'm a big fan of 1980s ninja movies. However, I like American Ninja 2 (with the more godlike hero) a lot better than American Ninja 3 (with the more fallible hero).

In American Ninja 2, the main character is played by Michael Dudikoff. You *know* that Dudikoff is never going to lose a fight. In the beginning of the movie he gets attacked by squads of ninja who use a variety of snares, team tactics, and weapons to try and defeat him, but he gets out of all them with a flowing and brutal ease. ("They fought like professionals; the blond one could almost be a ninja!") Later on throughout the course of the film Dudikoff defeats armies of ninjas and thugs alike using moves in the fight scenes taken from classical jujutsu and it's fun and cool because you know that everyone who assaults him is going to get their limbs broken. (Obviously, it's supposed to be "ninjutsu", but the moves written into the fight scenes are actually textbook classical jujutsu.) What is more righeously awesome than a guy wearing boots, blue jeans, and an 80s jean jacket completely ruining everyone's day by throwing them and then breaking their limbs?

In American Ninja 3, the main character, a different main character, is played by David Bradley. If you watch American Ninja 3 right after American Ninja 2, you notice that Bradley has to struggle with the ninjas he battles much longer than Dudikoff did. Bradley is always struggling, never in a position of clear bone-breaking classical jujutsu dominance. To add insult to injury, he actually gets captured and injected with a hokey new virus. It is only in the final 2 minutes of the film that he is able to meditate and summon his supreme ninja powers (which apparently Dudikoff's character was already plugged into and didn't need to actually call on to succeed) which both make the virus go away and make him able to effortlessly defeat the final ninjas and the bad guy. Also, for the entire time in American Ninja 3, Bradley is actually being decieved and manipulated by this kunoichi who uses disguises to fool him and make him think his sensei has been captured when he really hasn't. Meanwhile, Steve James reprises his role as karateka Steve Jackson from the first two American Ninja movies and continues to destroy ninja ass as usual. Never in the film is there any doubt that Steves James will completely take down anyone so foolish as to challenge him, and as a result you like his scenes much better than you like Bradley's scenes. His bulging muscles and hammed up kiais make him much more an appealing of a character than the comparatively wussy-looking Bradley who seems to actually be a less formidable opponent.

And American Ninja 2 is by far the more enjoyable film. You kick back, relax, and watch Dudikoff's exploding classical jujutsu death. When you watch American Ninja 3, you're like, "Damn, Bradley is an impuslive, easily manipulated-wuss. Look at how that ninja just floored him." You wonder why he's so special or so great that he gets to be the main character because he's like the second wussiest named character in the film.

So, I would argue that even if a character is infallible, if he is a cool or appealing character for some reason, you could still like the character more than you could a fallible but somewhat capable character.
Fortune
Arrgghh ... Pirates rule matey.
Mercer
Perhaps we should aim higher than writing a story that rivals the awesome power of the American Ninja franchise.
Sandoval Smith
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)
So, I would argue that even if a character is infallible, if he is a cool or appealing character for some reason, you could still like the character more than you could a fallible but somewhat capable character.

Ahh, the innocent words of one untraveled in the worlds of fanfiction (I was a volunteer editor on a few different large fanfic lists, so I feel I have more than the usual exposure to these things).

That's one of the things about Mary Sues. They are neither cool nor appealing (especially not as much as the author seems to think they are). The original cast now occupies supporting roles, existing mostly to just fawn over the M-S. No matter what their capabilities were, it is now the M-S who comes up with all the brillant plans. They become great friends with the character's that the author likes, and stomp all over the ones they don't. They become the center of the action, and don't suffer from any meaningful flaws (the usual is that if something goes wrong, usually something that they had no control over whatsoever, they beat themselves up over it until one of the other characters gives them a heartfelt, 'it's all right, it wasn't your fault,' speech). They frequently die, but this is also a bad thing, because then we're subjected to pages of the good guys declaring how this is the saddest day EVER, and the bad guys stopping to pay respects to a worthy foe.

A Mary Sue in SR might look something like this.

His name is Sandval S..er... Starr. He's Dunkelzahn's son, but it's been a big secret, because his mother was a Horror, and he was born before the Scourge during the fourth age. He did many evil things during the Scourge because of his horror nature, but then reformed later, and will now do anything to stop them. He looks like an immortal elf, but his true form is that of a great dragon, although because the mana cycle is too low, he can only transform when in the prescense of great power, or when pushed to the edge. He hates Harlequinn, who is his inferior in every way, and the two shall meet repeatedly, and every time he will easily make Harlequinn look like a complete chump. He gets along well with Ehran, who is almost his intellectual equal, and Frosty falls head over heels for him at first sight. It is his tragic destiny to give his life to seal the Horrors away forever.

The biggest reason why most people are repulsed by Mary-Sues is that they are literary masturbation, pure and simple, and you have to be a HELL of an author in order for most people to want to watch that.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Sandoval Smith @ Dec 8 2004, 07:39 AM)
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Dec 8 2004, 01:10 AM)
So, I would argue that even if a character is infallible, if he is a cool or appealing character for some reason, you could still like the character more than you could a fallible but somewhat capable character.

Ahh, the innocent words of one untraveled in the worlds of fanfiction (I was a volunteer editor on a few different large fanfic lists, so I feel I have more than the usual exposure to these things).

That's one of the things about Mary Sues. They are neither cool nor appealing (especially not as much as the author seems to think they are). The original cast now occupies supporting roles, existing mostly to just fawn over the M-S. No matter what their capabilities were, it is now the M-S who comes up with all the brillant plans. They become great friends with the character's that the author likes, and stomp all over the ones they don't. They become the center of the action, and don't suffer from any meaningful flaws (the usual is that if something goes wrong, usually something that they had no control over whatsoever, they beat themselves up over it until one of the other characters gives them a heartfelt, 'it's all right, it wasn't your fault,' speech). They frequently die, but this is also a bad thing, because then we're subjected to pages of the good guys declaring how this is the saddest day EVER, and the bad guys stopping to pay respects to a worthy foe.

A Mary Sue in SR might look something like this.

His name is Sandval S..er... Starr. He's Dunkelzahn's son, but it's been a big secret, because his mother was a Horror, and he was born before the Scourge during the fourth age. He did many evil things during the Scourge because of his horror nature, but then reformed later, and will now do anything to stop them. He looks like an immortal elf, but his true form is that of a great dragon, although because the mana cycle is too low, he can only transform when in the prescense of great power, or when pushed to the edge. He hates Harlequinn, who is his inferior in every way, and the two shall meet repeatedly, and every time he will easily make Harlequinn look like a complete chump. He gets along well with Ehran, who is almost his intellectual equal, and Frosty falls head over heels for him at first sight. It is his tragic destiny to give his life to seal the Horrors away forever.

The biggest reason why most people are repulsed by Mary-Sues is that they are literary masturbation, pure and simple, and you have to be a HELL of an author in order for most people to want to watch that.

Well, yes. That's what I meant when I said in the context of fanfiction which deals with already established characters that everyone but the author like better than the author's character the super character would never work.

What I've been trying to say is that in a story that is *not* fanfiction, and therefore dosen't have any characters that people already like by default, then the M-S style character would be a lot less obnoxious.

(There's a reason I don't read fanfiction, heh heh. wink.gif )

EDIT: Granted, I know what you're talking about, I think. Few things annoy me *more* than when a character is *not* appealing, but then is inexplicably powerful as well. Sailor Moon is like that. I hate Sailor Moon because even though Usagi is a wuss who should DIE, she always saves the day in the end. And that's just piss in my cheerios.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Mercer @ Dec 8 2004, 07:03 AM)
Perhaps we should aim higher than writing a story that rivals the awesome power of the American Ninja franchise.

Ha ha, good one.





......



OK, as cool as it would be to end my post there, I'm not going to. Because I have an analogous example using works of classic literature. Here it goes. My argument is that the most important thing is how cool and appealing the main character is rather than whether or not the character is fallible.

Let us compare two old favorites...Jane Eyre by Bronte, and The Count of Monte Cristo by Dumas.

Jane Eyre is about a brainy and artistic but low-self esteem chick. She gets mistreated by her adoptive family because they're sterotypical evil relatives and struggles against her poverty and low self esteem. After a lot of difficulty, however, she manages to marry the hunky mysterious man and live happily ever after.

Now, I liked Jane Eyre. It's just about the only Bronte novel that I liked, actually. I thought Wuthering Heights was moronic. (Although granted it was written by a different sister...but you know that they probably all influenced each other's writing.) Jane is a pretty cool character; she's brainy, she knows art, she likes to read history. If I met someone like Jane in real life, I'd probably like her. So, it was fun reading about her. Okay, fair enough. One thing is that Jane Eyre is very fallible. She's kind of scrawny physically and gets kicked around mentally a lot.

But, compare this to the main character in The Count of Monte Cristo, Edmond Dantes.

Dantes starts out as an ordinary pretty cool sailor but is unfairly imprisoned for years where his only meaningful human contact is this aging priest. The aging priest is a powerhouse of inorganic chemistry and political science knowledge. Dantes learns all about inorganic chemistry and all about history and politics and then stages a daring escape from the prison.

Then he disappears to China and the Middle east. He perfects his skill in hand to hand combat, his dueling skills, his knowledge of drugs, and his ability to sneak around and pick locks. He comes back to europe with: 1.) A really hot slave chick, 2.) a mysterious slave man, 3.) a seemingly unlimited supply of hashish, 4.) the enormous and effectively unlimited amount of money represented by a pirate's treasure, 5.) the friendship and loyalty of Italian organized crime, and 6.) a chemistry set which he uses to pwn everyone. He's like Batman, except with more oriental exoticism thrown in. And plus he predates Batman as a character.

He goes back to Europe and manipulates politics, the stock market, and French gentle society to put the hurting on the people who originally sent him to prison by destroying their finances, completely messing up their politics, and completely psychologically tortures them all the point of breakage. He's inscruitable, just like a mysterious 1800s pop culture oriental, and invincible when it comes to fighting with a veritable Pistols 6 (12) where his funky orientalism translates into 6 levels of Improved Ability in pistols.

His character is constantly in dominance. No one can outwit him or stop him. The only times it looks like he might back off and not continue with the vengance is when he himself experiences doubts, but it's never because he is actually incapable of doing anything.

And the truth is, I LOVED The Count of Monte Cristo. I liked it a lot more than Jane Eyre. While Jane Eyre was interesting to read, The Count of Monte Cristo had me gobbling page after page with enthusiasm.

Dantes, being ten times more kickass in every way than Jane Eyre, made the story that much more appealing to me. Because Dantes was such an appealing character I didn't mind that he was all but invincible on every level.
Skeptical Clown
I don't think it was the character that really appealed to you. Stories like The Count of Monte Cristo aren't really about fully-fleshed out characters. They're about fantastic and strange sights, bizarre caricatures, whirlwind adventure, and many other things, but not character. That you should find them appealing is no surprise; most modern entertainment derives from that style of storytelling, including RPGs like Shadowrun. I wouldn't advise anyone to try to write Jane Eyre in a Shadowrun universe; that defeats the point of both.

The key thing to remember about writing in the adventure genre is that what you are writing is not unique. Your plot has probably been done before. Someone has probably written a character just like yours before. So you have to work to keep things interesting. Find new ways to do things. Work hard on making interesting description and dialogue. They're the grease that keep stories flowing, and the difficult part of writing WELL within the genre. In my mind, the greatest failing of fantasy and science fiction is that authors these days get too caught up in plot, which is kind of boring, and neglect to flesh out their stories.
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE

...


Hm. Shocking.

Just type something up--like maybe a summary of a run. It's not hard.
Kanada Ten
I'll echo the advice of writing. Everyday: write something. A paragraph, a sentence. Keep a note pad with you. Don't be afraid to say, "Just let me write that down." And write it down. All the time. Experiment with style. Have fun. Write. Then read it a day later and learn from it.
Sandoval Smith
Ronin, I think you're kind of missing my point. I'm not against characters who are strong, skilled, talanted, or what have you. The problem is, even in real fiction, when the rest of the story exists simply to point out how cool these characters are. It's like listening to some stranger tell you all about how cool their 100 karma pool sammie is in the game he GMs, and how nothing can stop him, and in his campaigns he runs a couple of megacorps, and has killed great dragons with his bare hands.

The Count of Monte Cristo was a great story, and has all sorts of things going for it. Then let's say I wrote a fanfic sequel to it, called the Baron of Cronte Misto, whose lead chatacter's treasure is just a little bigger than Dantes's, his abilities are just a little better than Dantes', so on and so forth. That's one reason why M-S characters grate so much. Harlequinn is one of the most powerful characters portrayed in the sixth world, but whenever they met, Sandoval Starr would easily out magic, out wit, and out duel him, and it would be patently obvious that the author did not like Harelquinn at all. That another problem with fics that have M-S characters: the original cast is usually written completly out of character for the benefit of the M-S. Captain Picard becomes a warm and loving father figure, Riker a sneaky, scheming bastard. Draco Malfoy turns out to have a heart of gold, he just needed to suddenly fall in love with the irresistable halfblood who is secretly Harry's sister (and since it's a secret, Harry is trying to put the moves on her too, and boy, does she torture herself over the fact she can't tell him).

Read the first paragraph and tell me what immediately springs to mind when you consider that scenario. Read the second paragraph, and even if you're only passingly familar with the characters in the second, think about what is immediatley wrong with those portrayals.
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