Actually 2 questions here:
1) I know I am just overlooking this somewhere, but how do you handle wepaons that fire from the same vehicle turret? Do they all fire at once and if so, do you make just one roll or is each weapon handled differently? What about vehicle recoil compensators, do those cover anything firing out of the Turrent or are they needed per weapon?
2) How much Vehicle armor can you put on a vehicle? There is a restriction for personal vehicle armor, but I don't see any upper-limit for vehicle armor.
Any direct answers or a reference are welcome.
Thanks.
Full Version: Weapons in Vehicle Turrets
For the second question, the cap to armor is the cap to the amount of load your vehicle can handle. For the first, you can only have one weapon system active at a time, so only one of those could actually be used IIRC.
~J
~J
So it's not possible to re-create a WWII style ball-gun turret, or would that be considered just a MMG or HMG perhaps?
Shadowrun needs more doorgunners.
Pintle mount. Done.
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| For the second question, the cap to armor is the cap to the amount of load your vehicle can handle. |
That's only if you want the vehicle to move after you put the armor on.
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| you can only have one weapon system active at a time, so only one of those could actually be used IIRC. |
I thought you could link weapons on one turrent, like twin mounted LMG's. I may be thinking of an earlier edition.
If not, you should be able to. Also, can't you have >1 weapons active with gunners?
| QUOTE (Toptomcat) |
| If not, you should be able to. Also, can't you have >1 weapons active with gunners? |
Yeah but not in the context of a single turret is my guess.
Even with multiple gunners inside the turret a la Medium+ turrets?
| QUOTE (Toptomcat) |
| Even with multiple gunners inside the turret a la Medium+ turrets? |
I am again guessing it's one system per gunner, so if A is firing turret #1, B can fire turret #2, etc, C fires turret #3, etc. I am just wanting to know if it's possible to have a turret with linked-fire weapons and what the attack would be like.
I would imagine the more guns you are firing at the same target, the better the chance of hitting you'd get and probably inflict more damage simply because more lead is flying their way (reminds me of the scene in Matrix 3 where they are racing to get back to Zion and all the gunners are hammering away at the sentinels).
There's no rules for it, but I'd just use full auto style rules... each extra bullet increases the power by one, or something.
JaronK
JaronK
Five fire-linked Firmpointed HV LMGs.
'nuff said.
I'm not saying it's a bad idea in theory, just that it can get quickly out of hand. Perhaps use the same rule for armor stacking- any fire-linked weapons beyond the primary only add half the normal benefits (+Power) while providing all the disadvantages (+Recoil)
'nuff said.
I'm not saying it's a bad idea in theory, just that it can get quickly out of hand. Perhaps use the same rule for armor stacking- any fire-linked weapons beyond the primary only add half the normal benefits (+Power) while providing all the disadvantages (+Recoil)
| QUOTE (Toptomcat @ Dec 8 2004, 01:58 AM) |
| Five fire-linked Firmpointed HV LMGs. 'nuff said. I'm not saying it's a bad idea in theory, just that it can get quickly out of hand. Perhaps use the same rule for armor stacking- any fire-linked weapons beyond the primary only add half the normal benefits (+Power) while providing all the disadvantages (+Recoil) |
that's ASSUMING they're all the same weapon.
now, what if you put an Ares alpha AR, and an LMG in the same turret?
now you've got an AR, a LMG, and a minigrenade launcher.
I'd do damage and stuff for each weapon individually if they vary a lot in damage, range, or type from each other, but would link them the way toptomcat does if they're pretty close (ak-97 and an ares alpha say, if you're not using the MGL)
ooh- one more thing. if you're using my example, (Ares alpha, LMG, Minigren launcher)
i'd jack the TNS to hit with the grenade launcher. or mandate that they can only fire the AR _OR_ the grenade launcher
| QUOTE (Toptomcat) |
| Five fire-linked Firmpointed HV LMGs. 'nuff said. I'm not saying it's a bad idea in theory, just that it can get quickly out of hand. Perhaps use the same rule for armor stacking- any fire-linked weapons beyond the primary only add half the normal benefits (+Power) while providing all the disadvantages (+Recoil) |
Oh i like the idea of using a bullet count for determining damage level. Using this idea, 2 SMG firing x2 bursts would be something like:
1st burst : 7M -> gun1 burst -> 10S -> gun2 burst -> 10D
2nd burst : 7M -> gun1 burst -> 10S -> gun2 burst -> 10D
Yucky! Hope you have some good armor!!
What about gunnery-recoil compensators? Any thoughts on how to apply that?
I know its a painful idea, but it just seems out-of-place that you couldn't link alike weapon systems in a turret, I would have to say dis-simlar systems couldn't time correctly (the AR + GL idea).
Thanks again.
| QUOTE |
| Oh i like the idea of using a bullet count for determining damage level. Using this idea, 2 SMG firing x2 bursts would be something like: 1st burst : 7M -> gun1 burst -> 10S -> gun2 burst -> 10D 2nd burst : 7M -> gun1 burst -> 10S -> gun2 burst -> 10D |
Mmn. I like applying a variation of the standard autofire rules better. Why invent a completely new mechanic?
Well there are 2 different weapons firing here instead of just one, but I suppose that would work too:
1st burst : 7M -> gun1 burst (3 bullets) -> 10S -> gun2 burst (3 bullets) - > 13D
2st burst : 7M -> gun1 burst (3 bullets) -> 10S -> gun2 burst (3 bullets) - > 13D
So this actually works out nastier, i was supposing it was a bit less efficient to shoot 2 different weapons at the same target.
1st burst : 7M -> gun1 burst (3 bullets) -> 10S -> gun2 burst (3 bullets) - > 13D
2st burst : 7M -> gun1 burst (3 bullets) -> 10S -> gun2 burst (3 bullets) - > 13D
So this actually works out nastier, i was supposing it was a bit less efficient to shoot 2 different weapons at the same target.
My version would look like this:
Base 6L Damage Code
SMG 1 (Primary) fires 6-round burst, increases damage to 12S
SMG 2 (Secondary) fires 6-round burst, increases damage to 15D
There'd be only one damage to resist, though.
Base 6L Damage Code
SMG 1 (Primary) fires 6-round burst, increases damage to 12S
SMG 2 (Secondary) fires 6-round burst, increases damage to 15D
There'd be only one damage to resist, though.
I would use something like 40k uses...no extra damage, but lower the TNs to hit to make it easier to actually hit something, due to the hail of extra bullets.
hmm... an interesting combo would be 2 HMGs one loaded with tracer ammo..
a problem is how to make sure all bullets fire at the same place from more than one gun if the target is not at point blank range.. that problem is not trivial, the guns have to move independent of each other to have all bullets converge on the same spot.
if you only want them for suppressing fire, then the problem is less complex..
DS
a problem is how to make sure all bullets fire at the same place from more than one gun if the target is not at point blank range.. that problem is not trivial, the guns have to move independent of each other to have all bullets converge on the same spot.
if you only want them for suppressing fire, then the problem is less complex..
DS
Either that or you mount the barrels so close together than the difference doesn't matter much.
~J
~J
| QUOTE (DarkShade) |
| hmm... an interesting combo would be 2 HMGs one loaded with tracer ammo.. a problem is how to make sure all bullets fire at the same place from more than one gun if the target is not at point blank range.. that problem is not trivial, the guns have to move independent of each other to have all bullets converge on the same spot. if you only want them for suppressing fire, then the problem is less complex.. DS |
In real life, planes during WW1 and WW2 had guns dialed in to a specific range. eg, you might sight your guns on each wing (or each side of the fuselage) to converge at 300m for a close in dogfight for 6-700m for long range kills.
| QUOTE (Arethusa @ Dec 8 2004, 12:57 PM) |
| In real life, planes during WW1 and WW2 had guns dialed in to a specific range. eg, you might sight your guns on each wing (or each side of the fuselage) to converge at 300m for a close in dogfight for 6-700m for long range kills. |
Nit: Hence why it was called convergance. For machine guns it was usually between 800-1000 feet, cannons being set farther, around 1400-1600'. Which is why when pilots changed between aircraft they often had slight problems shooting 'around' targets. The guns that where mounted on the fuselage where almost never set to converge, as the thinking was if the gun spread was smaller then your own hull, it would work at the same spread aginst the enemy. Which is why, often German fighters had a centraly mounted cannon (20mm) and machine guns (7.6 to 12.7mm) on the wings.
| QUOTE (Bigity) |
| I would use something like 40k uses...no extra damage, but lower the TNs to hit to make it easier to actually hit something, due to the hail of extra bullets. |
I've never played 40k (hides in shame) but this is something like I was thinking as well as the whole convergence issue. I don't want to make it overly complicated as well.
Maybe targets at or beyond the convergence range would suffer the extra bullet damage, while those within the convcergence would be at -TN simply for the hail of bullets created?
My current GM came up with a very simple ruling on this:
Extra guns just increase your maximum rate of fire. That's it. Recoil is as normal. If you mount two guns of differing base recoil compensation, the GM will hit you. There may be bending on that last point, but you would need to make a very neat and pretty chart for the GM to use.
Extra guns just increase your maximum rate of fire. That's it. Recoil is as normal. If you mount two guns of differing base recoil compensation, the GM will hit you. There may be bending on that last point, but you would need to make a very neat and pretty chart for the GM to use.
So with x2 SMG's firing from the same turrent, you'd just do a 12-round autofire basically? As I mentioned earlier, that means you could burst twice per gun, and in essence, get (x2) 12-round autofires cranked off.
If this is what you are saying, then hat's what i've been leaning towards the more I think about it.
I appreciate the feedback.
If this is what you are saying, then hat's what i've been leaning towards the more I think about it.
I appreciate the feedback.
i kinda like the idea of stacking burst fire rules, haveing two weapons doing linked fire take the base damage of one of them and then stage based on the total number of rounds flying. to calculate recoil just total the amount of recoil comp and compare to the total recoil (not entirely correct i know but it keeps the math down and the weapons are basicly just one big gun).
if you have unbalanced guns (LMG and rifle maybe) then take the damage code from one of them and start stageing (either the lowest or the highest depending on the level of deadlyness, personaly i would go for the bigger one). if one or more of the guns are eliminated from doing damage based on targets armor or similar then just dont count them in the effect.
now if one trys to mix diffrent weapon systems (rockets and guns or similar) then just rule that they cant be linked as they need diffrent ways to aim (a rocket can have a proximity fuse or some laser range finding system and timed fuse while the gun uses a modern variation of iron sights, maybe with a lead indicator). either that or just hit him over the head with the groups collection of rulebooks
allso, i would think that a modern linked fire system would be able to adjustable convergence range. just dial it up or down and the guns are adjusted as needed. most likely this would use a computer to calculate the triangles shape and inform the gunner if the setting is outside of max range in either direction.
if you have unbalanced guns (LMG and rifle maybe) then take the damage code from one of them and start stageing (either the lowest or the highest depending on the level of deadlyness, personaly i would go for the bigger one). if one or more of the guns are eliminated from doing damage based on targets armor or similar then just dont count them in the effect.
now if one trys to mix diffrent weapon systems (rockets and guns or similar) then just rule that they cant be linked as they need diffrent ways to aim (a rocket can have a proximity fuse or some laser range finding system and timed fuse while the gun uses a modern variation of iron sights, maybe with a lead indicator). either that or just hit him over the head with the groups collection of rulebooks
allso, i would think that a modern linked fire system would be able to adjustable convergence range. just dial it up or down and the guns are adjusted as needed. most likely this would use a computer to calculate the triangles shape and inform the gunner if the setting is outside of max range in either direction.
| QUOTE (hobgoblin) |
| allso, i would think that a modern linked fire system would be able to adjustable convergence range. just dial it up or down and the guns are adjusted as needed. most likely this would use a computer to calculate the triangles shape and inform the gunner if the setting is outside of max range in either direction. |
Considering you can change the choke setting on a shotgun cybernetically (among a million other things), I don't see how setting a convergance distance would be any different.
To re-cap what I am considering using:
Turret with x2 SMG: (6-points of recoil built into the turret):
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Burst 1 : 7M (3+3 = 6 round autofire) -> 13D, +0TN (use 3 points of recoil [1/2] penalty since mounted on a hardpoint)
Burst 2 : 7M (3+3 = 6 round autofire) -> 13D, +0TN (use 3 points of recoil [1/2] penalty since mounted on a hardpoint)
Considering a Generic MMG (9S) in the same turret:
---------------------------------------------------------------
Burst 1 : 9s (3 round burst) -> 12D, +0TN (3 points recoil used)
Burst 2 : 9s (3 round burst) -> 12D, +0TN (3 points recoil used)
Of course, the scary thing would be linked machine guns...
JaronK
JaronK
Not really.
2 LMGs gets you the space for an Assault or Autocannon.
2 HMGs gets you the space for a Mortar.
3 HMGs gets you the space for a light railgun or AARM system.
And so on. It's not really efficient use of space if you don't use crazy stacking rules.
2 LMGs gets you the space for an Assault or Autocannon.
2 HMGs gets you the space for a Mortar.
3 HMGs gets you the space for a light railgun or AARM system.
And so on. It's not really efficient use of space if you don't use crazy stacking rules.
| QUOTE |
| So with x2 SMG's firing from the same turrent, you'd just do a 12-round autofire basically? As I mentioned earlier, that means you could burst twice per gun, and in essence, get (x2) 12-round autofires cranked off. |
I'm not sure we're talking about the exact same thing, partly because I think yours wouldn't work as written. It takes a complex action to fire a weapon system(Pg 157), so anything revolving around burst fire is pointless. You could also interpret the "One weapon system active at a time" as making dual firing guns illegal as written. People tend to ignore arbitrary game rules that simply make it more difficult to reflect reality, so I don't think that'll be a problem.
The way we deal with it is thus: You have two ares alphas mounted on a steel lynx. You can fire up to 20 bullets/pass. I don't have the kind of RC neccessary to handle the autofire(yet), so it's only useful for suppression fire.
Dual firing SMGs that only fire on burst fire? Since SMGs are a total waste to mount on a turret as written(With a few exceptions) no matter if they do full auto or not, I'm quite content to completely ignore that possibility. But if it came up, I imagine we'd let them do a 6 round burst every pass. Equally probable is the GM saying "Ok. Riggers now work by the same rules everyone else does. It takes a simple action to burstfire. You can aim. You can do called shots. You can do two six round bursts per pass."
| QUOTE (Modesitt) | ||
I'm not sure we're talking about the exact same thing, partly because I think yours wouldn't work as written. It takes a complex action to fire a weapon system(Pg 157), so anything revolving around burst fire is pointless. You could also interpret the "One weapon system active at a time" as making dual firing guns illegal as written. People tend to ignore arbitrary game rules that simply make it more difficult to reflect reality, so I don't think that'll be a problem. The way we deal with it is thus: You have two ares alphas mounted on a steel lynx. You can fire up to 20 bullets/pass. I don't have the kind of RC neccessary to handle the autofire(yet), so it's only useful for suppression fire. Dual firing SMGs that only fire on burst fire? Since SMGs are a total waste to mount on a turret as written(With a few exceptions) no matter if they do full auto or not, I'm quite content to completely ignore that possibility. But if it came up, I imagine we'd let them do a 6 round burst every pass. Equally probable is the GM saying "Ok. Riggers now work by the same rules everyone else does. It takes a simple action to burstfire. You can aim. You can do called shots. You can do two six round bursts per pass." |
Actually, had you come along when this thread first started with this reference, you'd have answered my original question which was: "Is it possible to fire multiple weapons at the same time from a turret".
The now obvious answer is simply, No.
Thanks.
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