Foreigner
Dec 8 2004, 06:32 PM
Greetings, Ladies and Gentlemen:
I know that, as far as many of you are concerned, I'm a *real pain*, but I'm curious about something...
Would any of you happen to know if there is a SHADOWRUN equivalent to the Assassin's Guild in DUNGEONS & DRAGONS and its various siblings?
Thanks again!
--Foreigner
kevyn668
Dec 8 2004, 06:36 PM
The Underworld Sourcebook had something on that note. Supposedly run by ex-KGB yahoos or something.
Otherwise, any criminal organization would work if you want realism. If your game is more over the top, I see no reason why you couldn't use the gang creation rules to make of organized group of high paid killers.
Backgammon
Dec 8 2004, 06:37 PM
If you mean a centralised guild where people register before commiting murders, than no, and frankly the idea is ridiculous.
There are however, societies of hired killers, like Chimera. I belive Chimera is the only one really ever specifically mentioned in material (Shadows of the Underworld), but it wouldn't be a stretch to create more.
BitBasher
Dec 8 2004, 06:39 PM
Also IIRC chimera isn't an organization that people join. It's just what was left of the (equivalent of the) KGB that kept doing what they did, just for cash instead of for the government.
akarenti
Dec 8 2004, 07:01 PM
Well, Chimera recruited Anubis in Target: Matrix.
kevyn668
Dec 8 2004, 07:08 PM
QUOTE (Backgammon) |
If you mean a centralised guild where people register before commiting murders, than no, and frankly the idea is ridiculous.
|
No more so than a cabal of mages bent on world domination.
BitBasher
Dec 8 2004, 07:11 PM
QUOTE (akarenti) |
Well, Chimera recruited Anubis in Target: Matrix. |
Right, i'm not trying to say that's impossible, I'm jyst trying to point out it's not exactly lile the women's rotary club!
Tanka
Dec 8 2004, 07:13 PM
QUOTE (kevyn668) |
QUOTE (Backgammon @ Dec 8 2004, 01:37 PM) | If you mean a centralised guild where people register before commiting murders, than no, and frankly the idea is ridiculous.
|
No more so than a cabal of mages bent on world domination. |
There aren't guilds, per se, is what I believe Backgammon was saying.
Groups of people with similar ideas/beliefs/job descriptions exist, sure. Doesn't make it a guild.
Cray74
Dec 8 2004, 07:13 PM
There are some groups that specialize in assassinations, but no cinematic "assassin's guild."
That said, quite a few runners are not above wetwork. If you need an assassin, then talk to a fixer for runners who don't mind the work.
Backgammon
Dec 8 2004, 07:18 PM
QUOTE (kevyn668) |
QUOTE (Backgammon @ Dec 8 2004, 01:37 PM) | If you mean a centralised guild where people register before commiting murders, than no, and frankly the idea is ridiculous.
|
No more so than a cabal of mages bent on world domination. |
That's not at ALL the same thing. I have no problem with small groups of people doing these kinds of things. The Black Lodge, Chimera, that's all fine.
It's when you have this one central "guild" idea where anyone planning on commiting murder or steal in a city must register with that is ridiculous.
A city with a dominant syndicate (Yakuza or Mafia) *might* come close to that idea, but I still don't see it has the equivalent of DnD's guilds. The syndicate is merely making sure you don't attract media->citizen->political->police crackdown attention to their turf. And even there, you're not exactly a "registered guild member" or whatever.
Guilds are a fantasy/medieval thing. Doesn't work in modern+ times.
Critias
Dec 8 2004, 07:42 PM
Awww.
But what am I gonna do with my fifth level Gutterpunk/sixth level Street Samurai?
I meet all the other pre-requisites to officially pick up the Cyber-Assassin prestige class (I got the smartlink for free as part of my third level Street Sammy special ability, and I get extra surprise strike damage from my Gutterpunk levels)!
It says I've gotta kill someone for the Cyber-Assassins Guild to adopt the prestige class! My GM's never gonna let me do it now! Man, this game sucks!
Cray74
Dec 8 2004, 08:06 PM
QUOTE (Backgammon) |
Guilds are a fantasy/medieval thing. Doesn't work in modern+ times. |
Hmm. Well, if "guilds" won't work...
"Assassins Trade Union"
"Assassins Union Local 327 (Seattle Chapter)"
"The Shiva PoliClub"
"The Charles Manson Society"
algcs
Dec 8 2004, 08:10 PM
QUOTE (Critias) |
Awww.
But what am I gonna do with my fifth level Gutterpunk/sixth level Street Samurai? |
Deliver Ninja Burgers.
Foreigner
Dec 8 2004, 10:09 PM
Oh, well.
That's about the answer I was expecting, as I currently have very few
SR sourcebooks, and none at all that deal with specific geographical regions (
i.e.,
Shadows of Europe and the like).
Thanks for the input, folks.
--Foreigner
Eldritch
Dec 8 2004, 10:29 PM
QUOTE |
Guilds are a fantasy/medieval thing. Doesn't work in modern+ times.
Hmm. Well, if "guilds" won't work...
"Assassins Trade Union" "Assassins Union Local 327 (Seattle Chapter)" "The Shiva PoliClub" "The Charles Manson Society"
|
Shadowrun is a
fantasy/Cyberpunk setting.
I use them. I have Several Assassin's organizations - including a Guild. I also have a Mercenaries Guild and a Guild of Spell casters. Unions are on the way out my friends - so let's change the name to something with less negative publicity.
Ya Guilds is a Fantasy thing - and SR is partial Fantasy - I see no reason this couldnlt work in your campaign.
(And if you are Pro Union, I apologize for any offense you may take by this.)
kevyn668
Dec 8 2004, 10:38 PM
QUOTE |
Backgammon Posted on Dec 8 2004, 02:18 PM QUOTE (kevyn668) QUOTE (Backgammon @ Dec 8 2004, 01:37 PM) If you mean a centralised guild where people register before commiting murders, than no, and frankly the idea is ridiculous.
No more so than a cabal of mages bent on world domination.
That's not at ALL the same thing. I have no problem with small groups of people doing these kinds of things. The Black Lodge, Chimera, that's all fine.
It's when you have this one central "guild" idea where anyone planning on commiting murder or steal in a city must register with that is ridiculous.
A city with a dominant syndicate (Yakuza or Mafia) *might* come close to that idea, but I still don't see it has the equivalent of DnD's guilds. The syndicate is merely making sure you don't attract media->citizen->political->police crackdown attention to their turf. And even there, you're not exactly a "registered guild member" or whatever.
Guilds are a fantasy/medieval thing. Doesn't work in modern+ times. |
Well, when you go and add three paragraphs of clarification it makes a bit more sense.
Sounds like a guild would do pretty much the same thing as the dominant syndicate in your example. Reduce attention, fix prices, etc.
I'm not saying it has to be a "WORLD WIDE ASSASSINATION FEDERATION." But I think there could be some spooky "guild." What the hell, we have ninjas running around
everywhere it seems. Why not non-japanese assassins?
Edit: And I like "Assassins Union Local 327 (Seattle Chapter)"
Fortune
Dec 8 2004, 10:46 PM
As was said (or implied), Guilds would exist of a sort (like Chimera in canon ... or a Crying Freeman type guild). But not the D&D type, where every single assassin in the world would have to be a member or be hunted down and killed for infringing on Guild territory.
Kagetenshi
Dec 8 2004, 10:47 PM
To be honest, I think the assassin's guild/thief's guild were originally intended to be D&D Organized Crime before the wrong person got ahold of them and they became silly.
~J
Cynic project
Dec 9 2004, 12:00 AM
Well, I would have to say no. THere are people you can hire that do kill people, but they mainly act as shadowruners,crime outfits(like the Triads...) or military assets (like the MET 1000).
Wile there are fantasty sides to shadowrun, there aren't people who do evil for the sake of evil.( Who aren't insane) And the idea of Assassins forming a guild would either have to be localized or rather spread out.
hyzmarca
Dec 9 2004, 01:13 AM
A Shadowrun Assasin's guild would probably be the opposite of the D&D model. Several infamous runners, all specializing in wetwork, decide that it is more profitable to work together than it is to compete and drive down the prices for all involved. They inform their fixers and put advertisments in the right place. Sometimes they let in new blood, but only the best of the best. Any punk can kill someone. They only consider professionals of the rumored to have killed Dunkie caliber.
As a matter of course, you don't contact them looking for a job, they contact you. If you try to find them, you die. If you refuse their offer, you die. They don't care about the gutterpunks who kill for pocket change because they work on a completely different level, but they certainly don't like real competition.
CountZero
Dec 9 2004, 01:17 AM
QUOTE (Cray74) |
Hmm. Well, if "guilds" won't work...
"Assassins Trade Union" "Assassins Union Local 327 (Seattle Chapter)" "The Shiva PoliClub" "The Charles Manson Society" |
Well, while I wouldn't necessarily think of a singular massive group like a guild or a union used by the various Corps or organized crime groups for wetwork, I could see of the various syndicates (Triad, Yakuza, Mafia) in various cities having their own "Murder Incorporated". There is, after all, a contemporanious historical precident.
Synner
Dec 9 2004, 01:23 AM
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Dec 9 2004, 01:13 AM) |
Several infamous runners, all specializing in wetwork, decide that it is more profitable to work together than it is to compete and drive down the prices for all involved. They inform their fixers and put advertisments in the right place. Sometimes they let in new blood, but only the best of the best. |
Wonder why I'm having flashbacks of Dan Aykroyd in
Grosse Point Blank?
DrJest
Dec 9 2004, 02:03 AM
You took the words right out of my mouth.
"Will there be meetings?"
"Sure!"
"No meetings."
BLAMBLAMBLAM
I frickin' love that movie.
Typically, a hitman works alone or with an infrequent partner; but I can see the top echelon, some time in the past, coming to the conclusion that competing against each other was pointless and coming to terms. That would provide the basis for a long term business solution, so by the time we reach 2064 you have the Alexander Pope Historical Society, an innocent-seeming group dealing in the minutiae of Renaissance Italy (cookies for the first person to work out what the hell that title means
), that is in actuality the contact point for about a dozen top hitmen.
FlakJacket
Dec 9 2004, 03:05 AM
The closest I could see- and have come across in games- to guilds would be if a fixer decided to specialise in contract killings, and over time expanded and hooked up with other like-minded fixers locally and in other cities/countries to form a network of some kind.
Hitmen by the 2060's already have to work with a range of other specialists - magicians, deckers, riggers etc. - to fill in any skill gaps if they want a chance of completing anything but the simplest of jobs. That can either be part of a fixed team or a case by case situation and hiring freelancers per job.
MYST1C
Dec 9 2004, 12:05 PM
QUOTE (Eldritch) |
Shadowrun is a fantasy/Cyberpunk setting. |
Well, my take is:
Shadowrun is a Cyberpunk setting with selected Fantasy elements added (namely Dragons, Metahumans and Magic).
An Assassins Guild would of course be incredibly valuable for law enforcement. Just imagine a raid on its HQ:
"Hey, look at that - a database on professional murderers, with names, contact adresses, job history..." - "Get all SWAT units you can and call the FBI!"
Stumps
Dec 9 2004, 12:40 PM
Guilds...
SR is more complex and smart than that.
Secret Societies, underground organized crime syndicates...yes.
Guilds...that's amature as all living hell.
We don't have them today, why the hell would we bounce back to them in the future when crime investigation is even better?
Come to think of it...guilds in general are something that never really existed for criminals.
Guilds are too public.
Stumps
Dec 9 2004, 12:43 PM
Wait....
An assassins syndicate or secret society or what-have-you?
That somewhat negates the job of being an assassin.
The fewer people that know who and what you are, the better, for that occupation.
Your Mr. Johnson and you would be about as far as that goes if you were really wanting to go about that.
toturi
Dec 9 2004, 02:02 PM
I suppose for such an organisation discretion is a commodity.
kevyn668
Dec 9 2004, 02:33 PM
QUOTE |
An assassins syndicate or secret society or what-have-you? |
Um, Chimera? Ninja Clans?
Just don't use the word "guild." Easy fix.
Backgammon
Dec 9 2004, 03:01 PM
That's like me saying "My crappy car is a Geo-Metro. I'll call it a Ferrari and everything will be better".
Critias
Dec 9 2004, 05:39 PM
Aww, man, you've got a Ferrari and you're wasting time hanging out on here? What a lo--hey!
I'm on to your little schemes, car man!
Kanada Ten
Dec 9 2004, 06:11 PM
QUOTE |
We don't have them today, why the hell would we bounce back to them in the future when crime investigation is even better? |
Interesting. I would think the ability to alter or affect a criminal investigation would be the primary function and cause for an organization or syndicate to purpose an assassins union. For a small few or large fee they will destroy evidence, intimidate witnesses, and outright bribe whoever is needed to stall, flaw, or end such cases. They already have the technology in place, since most of it is the same for creating fake identifications, syndicates also must deal with their own investigation derailing, and canon (all be it ancient) mentions a yakuza boss who offers such service to Lone Star incarcerated runners... for a small favor, of course.
hyzmarca
Dec 9 2004, 08:24 PM
Which is why it is important for such an orginization to obtain a legal mandate. Why, I'm sure that with the right ammount birbery they could get a Constitutional Amendment to form a legal Assasin's guild for no other reason that the curb the high rare of murders commited by amatures.
I am, of course, being sarcastic. Or am I.....?
kevyn668
Dec 10 2004, 01:52 AM
QUOTE (Backgammon) |
That's like me saying "My crappy car is a Geo-Metro. I'll call it a Ferrari and everything will be better". |
Thank you so much for making it clear to me. It was so silly of me to think that people could see things differently. How could I have ever doubted you?
Cray74
Dec 10 2004, 02:10 AM
QUOTE (Backgammon) |
That's like me saying "My crappy car is a Geo-Metro. I'll call it a Ferrari and everything will be better". |
No, it's not. It's a case of a name change representing a change in the object, too.
Lantzer
Dec 10 2004, 02:48 PM
I think the idea is unlikely. Guilds formed to regulate a trade and prevent competition.
Proffesional assassins are few enough that they don't really compete. When was the last time you had someone in your game trying to choose between assassins, or changing assassins because the new guy promised a more efficient deletion at half the price? How many assassins do people have access to?
Expendable hired killers are a dime a dozen, and easily replaced. No power to organize. True professionals are rare. No point to organize.
Nah, no professional organizations controlling the assasination trade would develop.
toturi
Dec 10 2004, 02:59 PM
I do not see an organisation or grouping of assassins an impossibility. But I do not see a trade association of assassins. There could be a guild whereby support in the form of training and logistics - false identities, money laundering, weapons, etc. Also I can see the grouping being formed to prevent one assassin from being hired to off another. True pros are rare enough, infighting is counter productive.
Stumps
Dec 10 2004, 03:58 PM
QUOTE |
Interesting. I would think the ability to alter or affect a criminal investigation would be the primary function and cause for an organization or syndicate to purpose an assassins union. |
*guy raises hand at meeting*
"So how many kills do we have to get before we can pass journeyman?"
Ok, joking aside...
Assassin "guilds", in history were mostly prevalent in Asia and were ordered by the governments to establish their training and order of such a team.
They were, in effect, the old version of black-ops forces.
Get in. Complete the objective. Get out. Leave no trace so no one can be blamed.
"Oh? My rival has suddenly passed on from a mysterious murder? How unfortunate. We should send a condolence message to his wife with our troops when we take over the care of the region until his child reaches of age."
In European areas, such guilds weren't used because assassins weren't part of the government. Here, they followed more like their role in Roman society. A hired killer for a price that suits the position of the target. They were people who could be scapegoat after the murder and betrayed by their employer. They were outlaws before they even committed the murder so their word meant nothing in the courts of old. They were the perfect tool to get rid of a "problem".
In Africa, they weren't ever formed because betrayal was commonly done with vengeance and wrath to take over control and was more or less accepted as a pattern of order. You take what you take control of. Just like nature.
In Old Russia, they weren't employed. They weren't employed until around the late czars of Russia when a radical change was desired and then it was done by pulling members of the military officials to the opposing side of the leader and getting them to do the job in return for a promised raise in power and rank.
In America, we never had any except for bounty hunters, more or less. Later, we developed special task forces to carry out jobs that weren't exactly desired to be known as general public knowledge and that's about as close as we got.
The idea of an assassin’s organization is one that simply does not work in a realistic sense simply because, for one to exist, all of the assassins would nearly have to be agents for some facet of a governmental agency.
In doing so, they pretty much negate their existence as assassins and become a special black-ops group of highly trained agents for the specific goal of eliminating potential threats to the benefits of the government that they are a part of.
A freelance assassin’s organization, even if they had the funding and resources of Microsoft multiplied by 10, would not have the ability to manipulate the multiple entangled systems of tracking and legal systems across multiple nations needed for travel, hiding, killing, training, and supplying such a group.
Furthermore. There simply is not enough work in the world for people to actually need an assassins organization in any respect.
The extent of power that the backing group would have to have to pull together such an organization would negate any and all targets that were anything below extremely valuable assets to the targets organization or to the backing groups interest of gain. Both are pretty much the same thing.
There are simply not enough targets in the world that are big enough in that concept to require an entire organization and especially not to require a plural of such organizations.
Simply put. It's not practical in any way at all.
It makes great movies and comic books, but it has really no place in the realms of plausible reality.
Kanada Ten
Dec 10 2004, 04:45 PM
The word "assassin" comes from the Arabic phrase "hash ashen" which means hash eater. A warlord controlled a group of essentially thugs using drugs.
In the Roman empire we have the Catholic Church monopolizing group of essentially thugs, and later various syndicates across the globe. Mexico is little different today, with cartels controlling huge portions of the country. In Shadowrun, syndicates have returned to power, including even the Catholic Church. You have gangs that control large swaths of territory, megacorporations monopolizing group of essentially thugs. Whole bunches of assassin clubs going on there.
QUOTE |
It makes great movies and comic books, but it has really no place in the realms of plausible reality. |
So it's perfect for Shadowrun then.
mfb
Dec 10 2004, 05:04 PM
QUOTE (Stumps) |
Furthermore. There simply is not enough work in the world for people to actually need an assassins organization in any respect. |
in real life, yeah, probably not. in SR, however, it's feasible.
Stumps
Dec 10 2004, 05:53 PM
Alright, I'll admit.
It's really up to your SR world. That is completely a solid truth.
In my SR world, I like things to be relative to reality, even if it's a bit stretched in some points.
So, for me, this is too much.
Why?
It's incredibly hokey.
Kagetenshi
Dec 10 2004, 06:18 PM
QUOTE (Kanada Ten) |
The word "assassin" comes from the Arabic phrase "hash ashen" which means hash eater. A warlord controlled a group of essentially thugs using drugs. |
Hash-shashin is the pronunciation I'm most familiar with.
~J
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