See Trying Again, SR4, 59. Average guy with 2 int and 2 will, can try once with a chance of success, then once with a chance if he spends edge, and further attempts after that can only happen with a longshot test.

Trying again is a -2 penalty to repeated attempts without a sufficient period of time between them (example of 5min to 1 hour, up to game master).

So, no, there is consequence, and you won't be able to just keep trying over and over again. Thus my recommendation to spend/burn edge on it.

As a long-time GM, I just want to say that if any player or char of mine was apprehended by LS, KE or even fraggin' DocWagon and tried to rules-lawyer excessive force *after* getting themselves handcuffed/magecuffed/masked or heavily drugged, said apprehenders would not react well. It's one thing for the perp to surrender, or John Law to knock'em into cuffs, but if they then suddenly go ape-drek crazy blowing restraints with magic OR cyber, that just upped the ante to all in and called.

Maybe I'm just harsh that way; you get arrested and you'll probably be out in a short span one way or another, you go 'splodin' restraints or people after they thought you were secured and they won't be thinking "Well if we just run maybe we'll live," they're going to only think "ohcrapohcrapohcrap" and hit every big red PanicButton they can find while they work on removing the threat of you from their vicinity.

I run that magecuffs shock when trying to cast, as described in the book. Player busts out three tomes to prove me wrong so he can go ballistic, he casts and likely soon gets splattered for being an uncontrollable threat of unknown strength. Same for the Sammy that suddenly kicks out mil-spec whathaveyou to break free.

- Moral: Leave quietly, go quietly or go out with a bang, but never think you're a bigger threat than the guy with the badge.

When initially captured, they're going to cuff and mask him like anybody else. Like criminals nowadays, they will put people into chains if they think they can break cuffs, so they may have stronger measures handy (like drugs). But that doesn't mean all police cars are going to be packing chains and drugs. For ordinary magicians, who don't need a SWAT team to bring them in, a magemask and magecuffs will be all you need.

I'm in a bit of a hurry so I'll respond with more detail later, but fine here is your quote.



Notice the wording, "as a safety precaution", which implies that it can be overridden, and in fact I clearly remember it being explictedly stated in Third Edition.

In the SR4 rules it mentions that you can hardware mod your simrig to not have the RAS cutoff. I'll bet the cops don't do that....

or is this something else?

Do you really want to powerbolt something which is a few inches from your face/head. I don't believe powerbolt disintegrates the target, so do you really want something exploding which is attached to your head. They could even lace the structure of it with some type of posion, so if it was powerbolted, all of the sudden the Mage, as well as having a magor head wound, would be in a personalized cloud of pick your nasty toxin here.

I don't know, between leg chains, handcuffs, and explosive collar, and the -6 Dicepool Mod (I wonder if vision mods from being blind would stack with the distraction mod.) from trying to ignore the BTL VR signals that are being piped into your brain not having to touch the prisoner seems like a decent tradeoff. It's not like the prisoner is going to have a snowball's chance in hell of escaping without some heavy duty help. (Remember, I rule no Edge under the influence of the P-Fix.)

Well, in that case, then how is being in simsense useful at all in the retention of the mage? He can't see where hes going, or when to duck to get into the police car. In fact, either a) he wouldn't move, and telling him to move wouldn't help, cause he probably wouldn't hear it. Or b) he would move, because hes in VR, and would just kinda randomly twitch and shake and fall down anyway.

Ravor, the -6 vision mod is for focusing on your meat senses while in VR. Since you're just trying to sense the trodes/mask to zap, or guards carrying you, there wouldn't be any applicable vision penalties.

BTL VR is illegal. I doubt cops would be playing around with that.

As far as a P-fix. While the idea is good, I doubt they'd be able to use a Pfix on someone who is just being arrested and not yet convicted of a crime. (Of course, this doesn't apply to sinless, but until they can figure out your SIN is fake, you've got one as far as they know.)



Yes, its an unlikely scenario for the mage to escape from. But escaping from jail/execution is a lot less likely.

Ever led a blindfolded man around by a rope? It isn't pretty or pleasant for the blindfolded man, but it does work, sort-of, and a high threat prisoner is a high threat prisoner where taking a chance can get you killed.

Yes, but I was no longer refering to casting Touch Spells when I asked the question.

*Shrugs* Yeah because we all know that the corps would never use a tool that is considered off limits to the general public no matter how common it might be.

What is your reasoning behind the corps not using a P-Fix? It is a piece of software that Joe Slacker slots when he wants to be motivated to go to the gym, or gain the self assurance necessary to help him with the chicas. No harm, no foul, and it isn't even cruel for those who play the corps as being "nice".

And, if he isn't supposed to be trying to notice the rope while sitting in VR? Remember, he wants to not escape. So he probably doesn't even feel the rope tug, and you end up pulling him flat on his face. Or he turns to look at the agent guarding him, which happens to be opposite of the way you're pulling, and you knock him on his face.

Turning the RAS off doesn't mean you can see the real world any better, it just means that when you move your VR body, your real body moves the same way.

As far as non-touch spells, yes, any vision penalties would apply in addition to the -6 for the VR.

I was more thinking that there are still trials, and that using a Pfix on the prisoner before he is convicted might be illegal in the UCAS. Since lonestar isn't usually on their extraterritorial property (is lonestar even extra territorial?) when arresting the mage, I don't see how they could apply a p-fix to an unwilling person legally.

* And the prisoner who could kill everyone around him with his mind falls down and gets roughed up allitle, so what? If nothing else feed him some very low rez sensor data in VR to help lead him towards a RFID Tag one of the Officers is carrying.

* Of course, that is the entire point of using the override in the first place.

* Yes but you first have to explain why using a harmless P-Fix on a prisoner would be "illegal" when handcuffs, leg chains, and Mage Mask 2.0 are prefectly fine.

*EDIT*

Remember, P-Fixes are just as temporary as a pair of handcuffs, remove the software and there isn't even the lingering bruises that handcuffs can cause.

Because it screws with his brain. Why is using mind probe disallowed? Its harmless. Or influence. Just cast influence on him. That lasts way longer too.

Mind Prode isn't allowed because of the poison fruit laws in gathering evidence that the corps have for some silly reason allowed to be carried over from the "good ol' days", under those rules any confession made while under the effects of a P-Fix could be dismissed as well.

As for casting influence on the prisoner, the first thing that comes to mind is that it is a waste of resources when P-Fixs are cheaper, can be used by everyone and for those who think the corps need to "play nice" can be verified as having been removed.

*EDIT*

Of course, any good prisoner P-Fix would include a general "be silent" rule by default to help prevent a smart criminal from confessing as soon as the program was switched on to try to gain an advantage in court.

The P-Fix that says "Tell us everything you know" is only used when no-one is arround to witness it's use.

Waste of resources? You're going to have a mage around to subdue the other mage anyway, and influence starts working way quicker than getting that mask on his head takes.

As far as p-fixes, how can you guarantee there isn't any lasting effects from it?

You MIGHT have another Mage handy who knows the spell in which case you would use influence until you've gotten the P-Fix working, it doesn't change the fact that technology is generally the cheaper and easier way to go.

I can't guarantee that there are no lasting effects so using a P-Fix, but it seems to me that the fluff might have mentioned something if it were dangerous to use them in short term prisoner control since Joe Blow is said to pop them like candy.

And remember, the Sixth World is supposed to be cyberpunk, so fragging what if they aren't totally, 100% safe? I've heard stories (Not sure if they are true or not.) about handcuffs causing damage while restraining someone who was resisting, and we all know that tazers can kill, hell, not even pepperspray is 100% guaranteed to safe for everyone.

How true. I'm going to go right out now to the gun store and pick up an MP-5 as they looked really cool carried by the SWAT guys on TV.

Ya know, I just thought of a much better long-term incarceration solution for mages...

Have the Prison Mage cast (preferably Ritual Cast) and then Quicken (with max Karma) a section of the jail / prison with Mana Static. Drive the offending mages' Magic to 0 or less.

So let's see...

Mana Static of 9 or so (yeah it's harsh drain but...)

Benefits:

-Instantly negates about 99.99% of all Mages' capabilities at spellcasting.
-Eliminates almost all Spirits that could help.
-Eliminates the ability to Astral Project / Perceive.
-Any Rating 9 or less Foci will be disabled while within the field.

The subject certainly can't Counterspell or otherwise Dispel the Mana Static. You need to have a Magic greater than 0. Whistling up a spirit is out (Magic at 0 again).

No spirits, no spells. Whatcha going to do Mr. Mage?

Inside that field, Joe the Power Mage is Joe Normal. Thus you can treat him like he's a normal. In fact, a normal prison whose entire grounds is covered in a (sufficiently powerful enough) Mana Static would be a great place for mages to be held.

Outside that field, you just have your security mages and spirits making sure no one is breaking down the magical protections. Inside the field, you have mundanes with enough hardware to make the mere act of 'thinking about breaking into the place to bust someone out' is suicidal.

Yet another reason why the mage needs to break out before being sent to a prison.

You could use a lower force version of the same for short-term holding. It's rather hard to really affect the world if you only have a Magic of 1 (normally 4 or 5) and the Star Mage Cop has a 3 or 4 Magic. Your foci are likely inactive. Your spirits aren't going to be of much (if any) help due to being significantly weakened.

Hell, have the Mage Cop cast Mana Static while on the way to the arrest. It'll be permanent for a time which should be more than long enough to get the perp.

Now combine that with a Mage Mask and you're screwed.

Sure, it'll be easier to spring you from short-term lockup as it's typically not as secure as long term in a mundane sense.

The best bet is to not get caught in the first place.

Overcast it at 2, and use edge to break the force caps successes. You can still pwn that lonestar mage since your skills are better.

That's a maybe on the skills being better. Besides, MS & MM will severely cramp your style if you are reduced to Magic 1 even with Edge.

Remember, if you get to spend Edge, so do the NPCs.

Either way, it's far better to not get caught in the first place.

As far as having your style cramped? Yes, again, thats why I said you get out when its ONLY the mask, and not having to worry about the static. MageMask you can win, if you spend your edge judiciously. Mage mask and trodes you still can, if you can get a lucky roll or two to boot. Mage mask, mana static, and trodes? You'll probably be spending most/all your edge, and burning 1 or 2, but you might make it. Unless you're enclosed in a prison cell/etc somehow.

NPCs get edge? Group Edge rules say otherwise. Unless you like making your arresting mooks prime runners with their own edge pools, then they're sharing it. And a lonestar squad gets 3 edge. That isn't much.



You know, it'd be more fun as a mage that if you did beat the test to cast in a mage mask, if you just made yourself (and the mask since you're wearing it) invisible. Now you can see to run around (cause the mask is invisible, even if you can't cast through it) and they have to try to track you down. If you doubleup and invis and levitate yourself, now you can fly straight up, and then worry about getting the mask off once you get a distance aways.

Since when did casting Invisability defeat a simple blindfold?

Can you see the blindfold? Yes
You cast invisibility on the blindfold.
Can you see where you are going now? Yes

Could you cast on things you can see now? No, cause it'd be LOS obtained magically. But can you avoid running into walls and the like? Yes.

Nitpick: If the blindfold is preventing all light from reaching your eyes, which blindfolds used to arrest magicians likely would, you cannot see it.

If it is a basic cloth blindfold, then yes, I would argue that you can see it.

Can you obtain Line of Sight with the Invisibility spell? There was a recent thread arguing about that. However, you may use spells to obtain Line of Sight via Thermographic/Low-Light Vision; only electronic enhancement does not function for spellcasting Line of Sight.

Yes, but you can succeed on a perception test against the blindfold can't you? Should you get a -6 penalty for having dark between you and the blindfold? Maybe. So you just spend a simple action and astrally perceive first. Blindfolds don't do a whole lot to mages, since they can all astrally perceive and not care.

I can honestly say that is a rule I have missed and not used to my detriment. Thanks for pointing it out to me, my players will hate you for it.

BUT I still don't think it changes things to much. There may be a time penalty, but the way you rule things there is still no consequence to failure. The average guy only needs 10 tries to blow the magemask. If you go with the minimum time period, that less than 50 minutes, probably shorter then the ride to the station house. If you go with the max suggested period, its still less then a day.

So I still firmly belive the only logical way to rule is that the cuffs (designed to inhibit spell casting) trigger when the PC attempts to cast.

---

On a more philosophical note, it honestly doesn't matter to me what the specific rules say. What I require for my games is a way to inhibit and/or deprive a mage of his ability to cast spells from time. These cuffs appear to provide that, so they are the most logical tool to use. If they didn't exist I would think up something else (and indeed I use other tools in my game for this purpose as well). All other PCs can be deprived of their primary tools or techniques from time to time, mages should be no different.

This is of course is not to say that the mage should not have any way to escape from prison or police custody. Just that he can't use magic to do it. Encouraging creative solutions by denying a player their traditional problem solving tools should be a staple of anyone's game I think.

Inhibit is one thing. Handcuffs certainly inhibited the professional strongman I met. That didn't mean he couldn't break them, or that people would take extra precautions so he couldn't break them. Instead, inhibiting someone is "good enough" for most of the time, and so it should be good enough for the average mage.

Granted, shadowrunners are far from average. But while I agree that it should be difficult for them to escape by magic, just like it should be difficult to escape by any means, that doesn't mean it should be impossible. If a circus strongman can snap handcuffs, a powerful enough magician should be able to blast a magemask.

Sorry, but I don't allow cheese like this, instead you should use a spelll that was actually designed for the situation, namely Clairvoyance.

Because using perfectly harmless sedatives on a prisoner is illegal as well.

Shooting a mage using deadly force against you is not illegal. My problem with that is that with the effectively unlimited armed response of corpsec and law enforcement that as soon as the police are trying to take a mage into custody the 'star gets a DPI astral mage or two to defend with and then geeks the runner mage. SWAT teams in SR would certainly have magical backup as well. SWAT and DPI mages may be rare but with the fast movement of Astral they could respond very very quickly.

So as a GM at that point I have a dilemma... for realism's sake the team should be shot until the astral mage see's a lack of astral aura on the corpses but for story purposes the runners should have a chance to survive. Do I as GM pull punches in the firefight so firepower saves their hide? Should it turn into a gun-sizing competition? I say not... I say like McCreedy's black bags in V for Vendetta that capture is more harrowing and that the morality of law enforcement in the future may need to be a bit... darker, to accommodate this possibility of harrowing capture.

As to method I wouldn't use drugs but regardless of plot device thats my rationale behind why its so very important capture be possible. All the rules lawyering and forehead-based touch-casting and invisible blindfolding in the world doesn't necessarily make the game more entertaining and delivering nail-biting suspense is what, for me at least, its all about. Clever runners should be rewarded but still have limits and its the GM's job to set an expectation beforehand of what situations can be won and which the runners REAAAALLY need to stay the heck away from. As long as the player know the boundaries of the sandbox and the degree of repercussions then the choo-choo railroading is avoidable as long as the runners stay in-bounds. If they leave those bounds then they NEED something able to challenge them and threaten their character in the permanent, in-a-jailcell kind of way.

Better idea. Since everyone loves mages with cyberhands (cause of all the goodies that fit). Get 2 synthetic cyberhands. They stick the cuffs on, you disconnect the hands(the cuffs fall off) and run/cast/whatever to get away.

Clever. Too bad they are trivially noted on assensing.

In which case... what? They don't put magecuffs on you? What options do they have? And I wouldn't call 2 hits "trivial" for assensing. It certainly isn't hard, but it also isn't guaranteed.

Will Assenssing actually tell the scanning mage they are detachable cyberhands? Or will it just tell the mage the subject has cyberhands?

I believe it to be the latter.

Besides, if you really wanted to incapacitate the mage, pump him full of acid. He'll be tripping so bad he won't be able to cast. He'll be spending his actions tasting the sound of colors.

====

Tarantula, I like that cyberhands idea. Not too shabby and provides a bit of a surprise.

Since when?

*EDIT*

I do like the cyberhand bits, although if the star gets a rash of Mages with cyberhands they just might spend the cred to retool a Mage collar.

Either that or simply geeking any Mage with two cyberhands.

It's also too bad that "magecuffs" aren't always handcuffs. They're described as collars, too.

Its also too bad that they suck at actually performing their function. Since a mage can powerbolt a magecuff he sees, and render it inoperable before it would shock him.

Can you actually get modular synthetic cyberhands that easily detach from meat arms? I thought the entire modular arm would be needed.

Good question, but there is no text barring it. I did notice that removing a modular limb requires a free hand though. In which case you're need to have grapple/drone hands instead, as those detatch on their own, and not manually.

Also keep in mind that magecuffs will simply fail to notice a mage using magic with extended masking as the glowmoss can't beat it.

Also, if you are good enough to have Extended Masking (that's 2x Initiation), what's the likelihood the Star Mage Cop will be able to penetrate your Masking?

Just adds more to Tarantula's thing that you want to get out as early as possible and if possible, don't get caught in the first place.