a gunfight can be way harder then you think if your not out to kill anything that moves. fisrt you have to id a potential threat, then you have to aim, and then fire. and then you have to ensure that the target is down before moving on or else you may risk him getting back up and shooting you in the back.
i still hinge this debate on the thing that its AR, not VR, that is used as the basis for most of the matrix chapter. this to me indicate that whoever wrote it wanted you to use AR most of the time, and VR if needed.
and one of the core concepts behind the new matrix rules was to give a way to have a hacker move with the rest of the team. but how do you do that if you have to drop into VR every other door to be effective?
so the matrix chapter is in dire need of more and better text. and i would prefer it to be in english. i see some people are collecting info of the german fanpro boards, but to me thats second hand info at best.
Full Version: My Wireless Rulings
I think it falls more on the "if it sounds to good to be true, it probably is" category. Its more of a stretch that a spellcaster can make an even better (and cheaper) AR matrix hacker than even a wired hacker (one spell, 3BP, drain that doesn't affect matrix persona anyway).
I think people are just in love with
a) getting 4 passes (1 more than VR!)
and
b) immune to all black IC.
The immunity to black IC and being able to still see your enemy coming IS the advantage to AR, not matrix breaking speeds. If WR works because it speeds up perception, than a techno's overclocking would work for AR, and it explictly doesn't. I could argue my "system" is going faster all I want, but its meat-body speeds I get.
To see it for what it is, a blatant attempt to exploit the rules for (yes we all admit) poor wording, you have to sometimes interpert the intent of the rules rather than assume because it doesn't say no you can. I'd rather error on the side of caution, than have a game where everyone has to have wired reflexes or be a mage, otherwise they missed out.
I know disputing terms gets us no where, but I'm trying to understand how people think something so good/and game breaking as applying wired reflexes to the matrix in any form isn't counterproductive to the whole system as its implied (and sadly little more than implied). And that should be obvious reason enough that its wrong.
e.g. "My character can lift his own weight according to my strength attribute, so I can fly". (though gravity isn't defined, its implied in the game, and its game breaking if every character could fly if he bought his strength attribute up for only X BP).
I think people are just in love with
a) getting 4 passes (1 more than VR!)
and
b) immune to all black IC.
The immunity to black IC and being able to still see your enemy coming IS the advantage to AR, not matrix breaking speeds. If WR works because it speeds up perception, than a techno's overclocking would work for AR, and it explictly doesn't. I could argue my "system" is going faster all I want, but its meat-body speeds I get.
To see it for what it is, a blatant attempt to exploit the rules for (yes we all admit) poor wording, you have to sometimes interpert the intent of the rules rather than assume because it doesn't say no you can. I'd rather error on the side of caution, than have a game where everyone has to have wired reflexes or be a mage, otherwise they missed out.
I know disputing terms gets us no where, but I'm trying to understand how people think something so good/and game breaking as applying wired reflexes to the matrix in any form isn't counterproductive to the whole system as its implied (and sadly little more than implied). And that should be obvious reason enough that its wrong.
e.g. "My character can lift his own weight according to my strength attribute, so I can fly". (though gravity isn't defined, its implied in the game, and its game breaking if every character could fly if he bought his strength attribute up for only X BP).
| QUOTE |
| a gunfight can be way harder then you think if your not out to kill anything that moves. fisrt you have to id a potential threat, then you have to aim, and then fire. and then you have to ensure that the target is down before moving on or else you may risk him getting back up and shooting you in the back. |
That can be brought down to muscle memory. Something as amorphous and entropic like the matrix cannot be learned in any such way.
muscle memory only helps for the aim and shoot part. your brain still have to go "ok, thats a valid target. shoot!".
| QUOTE |
| Any thoughts? |
My original house rules on this at the beginning of this discussion where:
1) You only get one Augmented Reality Initiative Pass per turn.
2) Once you take an AR pass your combat turn is done even if you have physical IP passes remaining.
3) When determining action order during an initiative pass subtract the AR users reaction from his Initiative roll.
My method allows the AR user to go in the first Init Pass if he absolutely has too at the cost of all his remaining physical IP passes. But putting the AR action dead last to all other actions that combat turn I think would be a step too far.
| QUOTE |
| To see it for what it is, a blatant attempt to exploit the rules for (yes we all admit) poor wording, you have to sometimes interpert the intent of the rules rather than assume because it doesn't say no you can. I'd rather error on the side of caution, than have a game where everyone has to have wired reflexes or be a mage, otherwise they missed out. |
I tend to think that the writers just didn't want to want to set up complex mixing physical IPs with AR IPs rules and just went for the quickest solution. ( even though that solution ran counter to the concept of AR in the fluff )
| QUOTE |
| e.g. "My character can lift his own weight according to my strength attribute, so I can fly". (though gravity isn't defined, its implied in the game, and its game breaking if every character could fly if he bought his strength attribute up for only X BP). |
and where in SR4 is it implied that VR is faster then AR? i know that older SR's talked about VR being the fastest out there, but this was still clearly spelled out in every version that came out based on VR getting priority when there was both physical and matrix actions happening at the same initative score.
this however is not talked about in the matrix combat text in SR4 that i can see.
| QUOTE (booklord) |
| I tend to think that the writers just didn't want to want to set up complex mixing physical IPs with AR IPs rules and just went for the quickest solution. ( even though that solution ran counter to the concept of AR in the fluff ) |
err, what part of the fluff is it running counter to? page please...
By that rational, wired reflexes and reflex spell should stack. Since one is using adrenelin, electrical stimulation, and other biological process to go fast and the other is magically speeding up your movement. But alas, you can't do that either. My brain says "hey it could work" but it would be game breaking so it they don't allow it and then even go as far as to cap it at [4] passes.
Wired reflexes already have incredible use.
AR already has incredible use. But people can't seem to reconcile that for getting to shoot their gun (as in action, simple or complex) and be immune to black ice they don't go as fast.
AR vs VR matrix initiative is implied at least a dozen times, such as the time it takes to do an extended probe hacking test. 1 Hour vs 1 Day?
Still by following the logic of "its the only way hackers would be worth it", then why doesn't the sample hacker have it? Why isn't there a commlink mod similar to SR3's response increase? simple, because your initiative speed and passes are based solely (with one exception) on the method you use to access the matrix. AR, CSVR, & HSVR
Wired reflexes already have incredible use.
AR already has incredible use. But people can't seem to reconcile that for getting to shoot their gun (as in action, simple or complex) and be immune to black ice they don't go as fast.
AR vs VR matrix initiative is implied at least a dozen times, such as the time it takes to do an extended probe hacking test. 1 Hour vs 1 Day?
Still by following the logic of "its the only way hackers would be worth it", then why doesn't the sample hacker have it? Why isn't there a commlink mod similar to SR3's response increase? simple, because your initiative speed and passes are based solely (with one exception) on the method you use to access the matrix. AR, CSVR, & HSVR
how about this, you acknowledge that hot sim is faster than cold sim, why? specifically because hot sim exposes you to more danger and grants another initiative pass.
Just like cold sim is slightly more risk and speed than AR.
Its really as simple as that. It makes sense. It doesn't make your hacker with WR2 any less cool.
He can still shoot a semi auto pistol 5 times and unload a program in 3 seconds. wow.
that DOES make him more viable as a mobile member of the party.
Also the arguement that VR is outdated is plain wrong. Deckers don't use hot sim VR because its out of date. and who uses this illegal hot sim module....hackers. So why would any decker ever even think up the means to illegally modify (and expose himself to addiction as well as black ice) his sim mod when he could have that speed and more in AR?
Just like cold sim is slightly more risk and speed than AR.
Its really as simple as that. It makes sense. It doesn't make your hacker with WR2 any less cool.
He can still shoot a semi auto pistol 5 times and unload a program in 3 seconds. wow.
that DOES make him more viable as a mobile member of the party.
Also the arguement that VR is outdated is plain wrong. Deckers don't use hot sim VR because its out of date. and who uses this illegal hot sim module....hackers. So why would any decker ever even think up the means to illegally modify (and expose himself to addiction as well as black ice) his sim mod when he could have that speed and more in AR?
I read the whole post Booklord, and yes your rules work very nicely. In fact, I think its almost exactly as the book implies it works, and more or less, thats what i'm arguing. Calling it a houserule almost seems generous.
Mostly i'm just extremely bored at work and happy to debate (which would explain why i'm posting like crazy).
Mostly i'm just extremely bored at work and happy to debate (which would explain why i'm posting like crazy).
First to respond to booklord:
He's got all the power of a hot sim decker with none of the risk. If the characters want to break into a high-security corporate site then the team accepts the danger and the risk.
See, that's where we differ the most, I think. I know there are many ways that my corphackers can get at the runners. The overconfidence that comes along with thinking that you're invincible just because those whitecaps can't frag you over the phoneline will lead to sloppy work. Those who know their limits and are careful are less likely to have gotten fragged in the first place. A good hacker is a good hacker. A sloppy hacker is a sloppy hacker. And there is more than one way too skin a hacker (eww). There is plenty of risk involved in hacking into Renraku databases. Most of which are not that the IC there can kill you. Many other things at the company can try killing you too. Corpsec can come barging, you could get traced, your comm could get compromised by enemy agents, you could get flat out beat in cyber combat and have to start the matrix run over or could have have failed as soon as you were caught analyzing where your analyzer doesn't belong. So what, you can't get killed? What player out there isn't gonna burn edge anyway?
This, however, falls into subjective terms as well. It's up to each GM to decide what he is comfortable with. If Black-immunity just absolutely can't work within your campaign setting then implement booklord's or Serbitar's rules.
Because I believe that you can't go from an environment where you have a high number of IPs to an environment with a low number of IPs and back again in the same combat turn without penalty.
And hence my argument that AR isn't excluded from normal intiative passes. See above. And I respect fyour right to penalize.
______________________________________________________
Wiseman, here's what I think:
It was my understanding from the RAW that AR speeds were "Meat-Body" speeds. Not "Physical" speeds.
I think I have no idea what that means, or rather, if that makes sense. What is meat-body speeds if not physical speeds? And if increased IPs makes lots of physical things possible, why is AR (meat-body actions here) not included?
The benefit of using AR applies to real world actions as in simple or complex. Not multiple initiative passes.
During multiple IPs you can take more complex and simple actions than if you had less, right? How does AR benefit "simple and complex actions" like you mention above? What does that mean? What are you talking about?
Spending 90 times the amount for a commlink with hot sim is irrelevant as that cost gets you the benefit of up to 3 extrra physical action phases in 3 seconds. Only your unmodified meat body of 1 pass may be used for AR.
Are explaining how booklord's rule work here? You spend 90 times the amount for Wired2 against a sim module. That's not insignifcant. It gives you 3 IPs either way. One way you don't have to interface with dangerous Black progs, that's all.
Notice that cold sim and hot sim both have a (two total) and (three total) annotation at the end of the paragraphs in matrix initiative. If wired reflexes boosted adrenelin, yada ya, then shouldn't it stack with VR (as in my brain is super pumped on reaction so I think faster than you think fast)? But it doesn't.
Did I ever imply that VR and Wired should stack? I don't think so. Usually IP enhancements don't stack. If you meant that Wired shouldn't stack with AR then I would refer you to the earlier discussion about that. In summary it went "Wired slows down your perception of events allowing you to act quickly". The exact nature of HOW Wired or any other IP enhancement work can't be reasonably disscussed here as it assumes a lot of things. The description of Wired Reflexes talks about neural boosters and adrenaline but not how such a thing would actually work. It does say what it's effect is, which is important. Bullet-time is in the mind, not your hands.
Multiple types of initiative modifiers do NOT stack. So a mage casting a reflex spell on a hacker doesn't help in the matrix in anyway (just like it doesn't help the mage in astral projection). Matrix is matrix whether it is VR or AR.
You make the point that IP enhancements don't stack. THat's great. But VR and Wired are two different systems. Sure they don't stack, that's obvious. But VR gives you passes in VR. Wired gives you passes in AR (meat-body world, physical world.)
You get 1 initiative pass (out of any multiples you have) for AR. your reaction doesn't go up in the matrix because you are "wired" either
Your reaction doesn't go up in VR because Reaction the attirbute isn't factored into VR intiative. IPs should carry over because your capacity for processing information and acting upon it to give matrix commands is increased by Wired.
(thats why adjusted reaction and passes should be shown seperately, like the character samples in the book do)
Those are shown separately in case the implants/spells/abilities that give those bonus are shut off or taken away for any reason. For example, walking down town with my Wired system off is a good idea unless you want to take a seemingly epic journey down the block. If I get ambushed by ninjas on the way I would use my unagmented attributes to react to said ninjas. If my character sheet is drawn up with natural (augmented) formats used then it will be easy to tell what numbers I am using. Knowing what your natural(augmented) numbers are is useful when dealing with caps as well.
You may split up that initiative pass into physical or matrix actions and any bonus initiative passes from wired reflexes must be taken in the physical.
Where did this come from? Is this what you intended booklord when you wrote your rule? If so I think my own points about how the value of a action for matrix actions and physical actions is equal are actually supported here. If I can do a Matrix perception (simple) and shoot at ninjas (simple/simply awesome) in the same pass then that would imply both those actions are equally complex and take an equivalent amount of time. If I melee attack (complex action) or matrix attack (complex action) since the two are made up of equally complex and time equivalent parts (2 simple actions) then they both take just as much time. Period.
You can argue all you want that you paid for that right since its more expensive. But you didn't, just because something is more expensive doesn't mean it does something it wasn't designed or intended to do. (my house costs more than my car but I can't drive it to work). At best you could argue you should use your physical reaction in AR but not the additional passes.
I may not have intended to buy the immunity to black IC but I did. Just becuase i didn't intend to doesn't mean that I didn't. Your house/car analogy is worthless here, and I would have to say a downright fallacy (though I'm not sure exactly which kind.) The SimModule and Wired Reflexes are both designed to, in game terms, increase Initative Passes. Immunity to Black IC when using Wired in AR is another benefit of Wired but not the sole intention of its creators. If I do not interface with simsense signals through DNI I do not receive biofeedback. If I use Wired to increase IPs when using AR I do not interface with simsense signals, therefore I do not receive biofeedback. Cost was only brought up in regards to game balance issues, not actual mechanics. That was obvious. To be more concise: Items often have unintended uses, regardless of cost.
Also, when talking about AR initiative, they state "regular meat-body speeds". Regular alludes to the unmodified speed. Meat by slang definition is unaugmented by cyberware (or the part left behind when you VR). Effectively saying the unmodified unaugmented-body speeds.
WHAT! That same AR init section directly refers you to the Combat section Initaitive entry where there is no mention of augmentation either. Does that mean that augmentations that affect your initiative don't affect your initative? Does that even make sense? Regular, in the context of other forms of matrix intiative, means just like any other initative test (REA+INT). The same sentence that you got "regular" from goes on to say
He's got all the power of a hot sim decker with none of the risk. If the characters want to break into a high-security corporate site then the team accepts the danger and the risk.
See, that's where we differ the most, I think. I know there are many ways that my corphackers can get at the runners. The overconfidence that comes along with thinking that you're invincible just because those whitecaps can't frag you over the phoneline will lead to sloppy work. Those who know their limits and are careful are less likely to have gotten fragged in the first place. A good hacker is a good hacker. A sloppy hacker is a sloppy hacker. And there is more than one way too skin a hacker (eww). There is plenty of risk involved in hacking into Renraku databases. Most of which are not that the IC there can kill you. Many other things at the company can try killing you too. Corpsec can come barging, you could get traced, your comm could get compromised by enemy agents, you could get flat out beat in cyber combat and have to start the matrix run over or could have have failed as soon as you were caught analyzing where your analyzer doesn't belong. So what, you can't get killed? What player out there isn't gonna burn edge anyway?
This, however, falls into subjective terms as well. It's up to each GM to decide what he is comfortable with. If Black-immunity just absolutely can't work within your campaign setting then implement booklord's or Serbitar's rules.
Because I believe that you can't go from an environment where you have a high number of IPs to an environment with a low number of IPs and back again in the same combat turn without penalty.
And hence my argument that AR isn't excluded from normal intiative passes. See above. And I respect fyour right to penalize.
______________________________________________________
Wiseman, here's what I think:
It was my understanding from the RAW that AR speeds were "Meat-Body" speeds. Not "Physical" speeds.
I think I have no idea what that means, or rather, if that makes sense. What is meat-body speeds if not physical speeds? And if increased IPs makes lots of physical things possible, why is AR (meat-body actions here) not included?
The benefit of using AR applies to real world actions as in simple or complex. Not multiple initiative passes.
During multiple IPs you can take more complex and simple actions than if you had less, right? How does AR benefit "simple and complex actions" like you mention above? What does that mean? What are you talking about?
Spending 90 times the amount for a commlink with hot sim is irrelevant as that cost gets you the benefit of up to 3 extrra physical action phases in 3 seconds. Only your unmodified meat body of 1 pass may be used for AR.
Are explaining how booklord's rule work here? You spend 90 times the amount for Wired2 against a sim module. That's not insignifcant. It gives you 3 IPs either way. One way you don't have to interface with dangerous Black progs, that's all.
Notice that cold sim and hot sim both have a (two total) and (three total) annotation at the end of the paragraphs in matrix initiative. If wired reflexes boosted adrenelin, yada ya, then shouldn't it stack with VR (as in my brain is super pumped on reaction so I think faster than you think fast)? But it doesn't.
Did I ever imply that VR and Wired should stack? I don't think so. Usually IP enhancements don't stack. If you meant that Wired shouldn't stack with AR then I would refer you to the earlier discussion about that. In summary it went "Wired slows down your perception of events allowing you to act quickly". The exact nature of HOW Wired or any other IP enhancement work can't be reasonably disscussed here as it assumes a lot of things. The description of Wired Reflexes talks about neural boosters and adrenaline but not how such a thing would actually work. It does say what it's effect is, which is important. Bullet-time is in the mind, not your hands.
Multiple types of initiative modifiers do NOT stack. So a mage casting a reflex spell on a hacker doesn't help in the matrix in anyway (just like it doesn't help the mage in astral projection). Matrix is matrix whether it is VR or AR.
You make the point that IP enhancements don't stack. THat's great. But VR and Wired are two different systems. Sure they don't stack, that's obvious. But VR gives you passes in VR. Wired gives you passes in AR (meat-body world, physical world.)
You get 1 initiative pass (out of any multiples you have) for AR. your reaction doesn't go up in the matrix because you are "wired" either
Your reaction doesn't go up in VR because Reaction the attirbute isn't factored into VR intiative. IPs should carry over because your capacity for processing information and acting upon it to give matrix commands is increased by Wired.
(thats why adjusted reaction and passes should be shown seperately, like the character samples in the book do)
Those are shown separately in case the implants/spells/abilities that give those bonus are shut off or taken away for any reason. For example, walking down town with my Wired system off is a good idea unless you want to take a seemingly epic journey down the block. If I get ambushed by ninjas on the way I would use my unagmented attributes to react to said ninjas. If my character sheet is drawn up with natural (augmented) formats used then it will be easy to tell what numbers I am using. Knowing what your natural(augmented) numbers are is useful when dealing with caps as well.
You may split up that initiative pass into physical or matrix actions and any bonus initiative passes from wired reflexes must be taken in the physical.
Where did this come from? Is this what you intended booklord when you wrote your rule? If so I think my own points about how the value of a action for matrix actions and physical actions is equal are actually supported here. If I can do a Matrix perception (simple) and shoot at ninjas (simple/simply awesome) in the same pass then that would imply both those actions are equally complex and take an equivalent amount of time. If I melee attack (complex action) or matrix attack (complex action) since the two are made up of equally complex and time equivalent parts (2 simple actions) then they both take just as much time. Period.
You can argue all you want that you paid for that right since its more expensive. But you didn't, just because something is more expensive doesn't mean it does something it wasn't designed or intended to do. (my house costs more than my car but I can't drive it to work). At best you could argue you should use your physical reaction in AR but not the additional passes.
I may not have intended to buy the immunity to black IC but I did. Just becuase i didn't intend to doesn't mean that I didn't. Your house/car analogy is worthless here, and I would have to say a downright fallacy (though I'm not sure exactly which kind.) The SimModule and Wired Reflexes are both designed to, in game terms, increase Initative Passes. Immunity to Black IC when using Wired in AR is another benefit of Wired but not the sole intention of its creators. If I do not interface with simsense signals through DNI I do not receive biofeedback. If I use Wired to increase IPs when using AR I do not interface with simsense signals, therefore I do not receive biofeedback. Cost was only brought up in regards to game balance issues, not actual mechanics. That was obvious. To be more concise: Items often have unintended uses, regardless of cost.
Also, when talking about AR initiative, they state "regular meat-body speeds". Regular alludes to the unmodified speed. Meat by slang definition is unaugmented by cyberware (or the part left behind when you VR). Effectively saying the unmodified unaugmented-body speeds.
WHAT! That same AR init section directly refers you to the Combat section Initaitive entry where there is no mention of augmentation either. Does that mean that augmentations that affect your initiative don't affect your initative? Does that even make sense? Regular, in the context of other forms of matrix intiative, means just like any other initative test (REA+INT). The same sentence that you got "regular" from goes on to say
| QUOTE |
| use your physical Reaction and Intuition as normal (see Initiative, p. 132). |
That is far more clear about what was intended than what you think was alluded to or what you think was implied. AR initiative is handled just like regular initiative, with REA+INT where both attributes can be augmented and affect the initiative roll.
Only thing I can think of is that you resolve the wired reflex passes and actions first rather than last. This would then mean that a wired character would get its actions not only first (if they had the higher initiative score) but would take their extra passes first. So a SAM with WR2 and the higher initiative score would definitely get three passes before an unmodified character would get one.
Mr. Gunbunny doesn't get to go before eveyone else if he has more IPs then them. Everyone who has 1 IP get to go on Initiative pass 1. THEN those with more passes act on corresponding Initiative passes. Got 3IPs? You get to go on Inititive pass 1,2, and 3. In that order. If you want different initiative pass orders talk to Serbitar, he has his own system for that.
I think it falls more on the "if it sounds to good to be true, it probably is" category.
I thought that sustaining spells forced you to take drain every time your turn came around and that you had to spend a simple action to do it. When I found out that I was completely wrong about that I "thought it was too good to be true" but it most certainly wasn't. That is an awful reason to rule against Wired AR IPs.
Oh, and Hackmages do, in fact, make VERY good hackers. According to the rules as written. You're completely wrong on how to do it, though. Casting Increased Reflexes will cost you -2 sustaining modifier and damage mods if 3 or more drain affects you. And you're forgeting to include Spellcasting into your BP comparison. Try using adept abilities instead.
The immunity to black IC and being able to still see your enemy coming IS the advantage to AR, not matrix breaking speeds. If WR works because it speeds up perception, than a techno's overclocking would work for AR, and it explictly doesn't. I could argue my "system" is going faster all I want, but its meat-body speeds I get.
Overclocking affects VR specifically, Wired affects IPs in general. Bad comparison.
To see it for what it is, a blatant attempt to exploit the rules for (yes we all admit) poor wording, you have to sometimes interpert the intent of the rules rather than assume because it doesn't say no you can. I'd rather error on the side of caution, than have a game where everyone has to have wired reflexes or be a mage, otherwise they missed out.
If your game centers on combat then not having many IPs will keep you back. You should have a balance of roleplaying, active combat and hacking/astral combat as is appropriate for your group. If you don't want IPs to be an essential character traits, don't stress combat situations. Make just enough so that the augmented guys in the party have something to use them on. To err on the side of caution implies that allowing such a thing to happen is game breaking ro dangerous for some toher reason. I don't think so. Like I have stressed above, fast hacking and immunity to Black IC isn't the end of the world.
e.g. "My character can lift his own weight according to my strength attribute, so I can fly". (though gravity isn't defined, its implied in the game, and its game breaking if every character could fly if he bought his strength attribute up for only X BP).
Wrong, it's absurd that something like your example should happen. And saying that something is implied is far different than actually citing sources/pages.
AR vs VR matrix initiative is implied at least a dozen times, such as the time it takes to do an extended probe hacking test. 1 Hour vs 1 Day?
You've got 11 more examples? Let's see them all as that would certainly clear up this debate. Extended probing tests are different from split second Complex actions anyway and should not be so readily compared.
Still by following the logic of "its the only way hackers would be worth it", then why doesn't the sample hacker have it?
Because Wired doesn't fit every character concept. Sometimes character concepts are more important than munchkining. Not everyone is a 1337 hacker. Some would also perfer to use the relatively cheap commlink then dedicate 32,000 bucks to Wired. The Hacker in the book also spent extra BP to level up his Cracking skills seperately due to what fits his character and not what is most effective rules wise. VR hackers aren't useless, they just aren't as intergrated.
Why isn't there a commlink mod similar to SR3's response increase?
Because all cyber-decks magically disapeared
how about this, you acknowledge that hot sim is faster than cold sim, why?
Because hot sim uses nifty magic that cant be explained? But so does Wired, and as far as that goes the rules and the book make no differentiation between the two types of IPs. Whether this was intended or not, it still is.
Also the arguement that VR is outdated is plain wrong. Deckers don't use hot sim VR because its out of date. and who uses this illegal hot sim module....hackers. So why would any decker ever even think up the means to illegally modify (and expose himself to addiction as well as black ice) his sim mod when he could have that speed and more in AR?
Cheap and easy.
Couple of things to note:
Meat-body..what is meat? well in the appendix in the back of the book, they reference meat. Meat under matrix jargon is defined as "an unwired individual, or the physical part left behind when in VR".
Second note that under Cold Sim VR it says "one extra initiative pass (total two). So I get one extra than what? than what I would have if I used AR.
Third look under Initiative and switching initiative during combat. This section is written specifically for two differing environments from the physical, the matrix, and the astral. Note the part about losing extra initiative passes also.
Next check out the description in Hot Sim VR about hackers only using this to gain the edge on speed over the slower access types. You CAN do everything just as "powerful" as VR with AR, just not as fast. Also under AR initiative it clearcly states ACTIONS, with no mention of using wired reflexes passes. Some argue then why not say "unmodified", so I'll argue why not say under wired reflexes or under AR that the wired reflexes do count.
You even accept that the benefits from wired reflexes are shown seperately because they're bonuses. keyword, bonus. They adjust your regular reaction, initiative and passes.
Even if you read the whole book and still can't see any references to the speed of VR over AR, and even if you want to dispute the jargon as defined, or the system as it works for a very similar environment (astral), you still can't claim that its common sense that you should be able to break the pass cap on the matrix (implied at 3, except overclocking) and still be immune to black ice at no penalty.
its not only counter-intuitive, its counter-productive.
Now in the end, anyone can play the game they want to. I can rule that dermal plating is specific to locations, and that multiple locations stack. It never says you can't. But any GM worth his dice is not going to allow an obvious stretch of the rules for personal benefit and at the cost of balance.
No matter how you spin it in your mind, AR should never be both faster and safer than AR. And if you were honest about it, and stopped looking at 1 pass AR as an attempt to limit the hackers, you'd see the honest intent was to give an unwired hacker the option to move along with the party (at all) and that when the going gets tough, the tough go VR (for speed). Not being confined to a Deck IS mobility. Getting to split actions IS mobility. Everyone uses AR, real hackers use hot sim.
As much as you'd like to seperate AR into the physical category, all its actions are listed as "Matrix Actions". AR is matrix that uses regular meat-body speeds period.
If you want to allow it go ahead (hell if I'm going to convince someone how to have fun), but it only serves to blur the lines of defined roles in the party, since every SAM is a hacker and every hacker is a SAM (few skills/skillsofts aside). Again, why not make a mystic/magician with one reflex spell and a commlink. Its cheaper than WR and according to you gives the same benefit (and spirits can sustain spells for you). You show me a game where AR gets WR/Magic passes, and I'll show you a game where everyone has WR and no one plays a technomancer.
You call a few of my arguements cheap, but you still offer nothing substantial other than wired reflexes doesn't specificallys state it doesn't add to AR.
Show me 11 examples of AR being faster. Hell show me one.
I'll post the other 11 examples when I have access to my book so you can have all your quotes and such nicely lined up with pages (or you could just read the entire matrix section).
Meat-body..what is meat? well in the appendix in the back of the book, they reference meat. Meat under matrix jargon is defined as "an unwired individual, or the physical part left behind when in VR".
Second note that under Cold Sim VR it says "one extra initiative pass (total two). So I get one extra than what? than what I would have if I used AR.
Third look under Initiative and switching initiative during combat. This section is written specifically for two differing environments from the physical, the matrix, and the astral. Note the part about losing extra initiative passes also.
Next check out the description in Hot Sim VR about hackers only using this to gain the edge on speed over the slower access types. You CAN do everything just as "powerful" as VR with AR, just not as fast. Also under AR initiative it clearcly states ACTIONS, with no mention of using wired reflexes passes. Some argue then why not say "unmodified", so I'll argue why not say under wired reflexes or under AR that the wired reflexes do count.
You even accept that the benefits from wired reflexes are shown seperately because they're bonuses. keyword, bonus. They adjust your regular reaction, initiative and passes.
Even if you read the whole book and still can't see any references to the speed of VR over AR, and even if you want to dispute the jargon as defined, or the system as it works for a very similar environment (astral), you still can't claim that its common sense that you should be able to break the pass cap on the matrix (implied at 3, except overclocking) and still be immune to black ice at no penalty.
its not only counter-intuitive, its counter-productive.
Now in the end, anyone can play the game they want to. I can rule that dermal plating is specific to locations, and that multiple locations stack. It never says you can't. But any GM worth his dice is not going to allow an obvious stretch of the rules for personal benefit and at the cost of balance.
No matter how you spin it in your mind, AR should never be both faster and safer than AR. And if you were honest about it, and stopped looking at 1 pass AR as an attempt to limit the hackers, you'd see the honest intent was to give an unwired hacker the option to move along with the party (at all) and that when the going gets tough, the tough go VR (for speed). Not being confined to a Deck IS mobility. Getting to split actions IS mobility. Everyone uses AR, real hackers use hot sim.
As much as you'd like to seperate AR into the physical category, all its actions are listed as "Matrix Actions". AR is matrix that uses regular meat-body speeds period.
If you want to allow it go ahead (hell if I'm going to convince someone how to have fun), but it only serves to blur the lines of defined roles in the party, since every SAM is a hacker and every hacker is a SAM (few skills/skillsofts aside). Again, why not make a mystic/magician with one reflex spell and a commlink. Its cheaper than WR and according to you gives the same benefit (and spirits can sustain spells for you). You show me a game where AR gets WR/Magic passes, and I'll show you a game where everyone has WR and no one plays a technomancer.
You call a few of my arguements cheap, but you still offer nothing substantial other than wired reflexes doesn't specificallys state it doesn't add to AR.
Show me 11 examples of AR being faster. Hell show me one.
I'll post the other 11 examples when I have access to my book so you can have all your quotes and such nicely lined up with pages (or you could just read the entire matrix section).
Personally, I not fond of overt exploitation of rules, but frankly this isn't all that unbalancing. Whoo... you go fast in AR. There are still things you have to do in VR that you can't in AR. At least not as well.
Frankly, each game and player is different and the rules are friggin guidelines. They are not set in stone. A GM has to make a call depending on the situation. Its fine to allow the magical init boosting apply to AR. But if it seems like they are abusing it, you have two options. 1) Disallow it after the character gets crazy with it. Or 2) Explain to them that NPCs will get to do that too! And then use one on them and see how they like it. Number 2 is my favorite. It works wonders. XD
Also, if you're casting magic against others through AR.... that has to lay down some hefty mods with all the distracting picitures and overlayed data. Frankly, the same distraction would apply to shooting a gun working on an disconnected Maglock, and so on. There is a trade off of some kind.
Edit: Oh, and half the point of a freeform point based system is to blur the lines between archeotypes... you know.... an attempt at realism and freedom.
Frankly, each game and player is different and the rules are friggin guidelines. They are not set in stone. A GM has to make a call depending on the situation. Its fine to allow the magical init boosting apply to AR. But if it seems like they are abusing it, you have two options. 1) Disallow it after the character gets crazy with it. Or 2) Explain to them that NPCs will get to do that too! And then use one on them and see how they like it. Number 2 is my favorite. It works wonders. XD
Also, if you're casting magic against others through AR.... that has to lay down some hefty mods with all the distracting picitures and overlayed data. Frankly, the same distraction would apply to shooting a gun working on an disconnected Maglock, and so on. There is a trade off of some kind.
Edit: Oh, and half the point of a freeform point based system is to blur the lines between archeotypes... you know.... an attempt at realism and freedom.
After re-reading the matrix section, it is implied many times that VR is faster than AR. It might not even be a limit of how fast your character is thanks to wires or SAs, it might be a limit imposed on AR that makes it process information slower than going digital.
And it makes sense, no matter how fast you might physically be, there is technological lag involved in going through peripherals. You can't even comprehend the speed of thought. Seriously. And moving faster physically and "slowing everything down aka bullet time" doesn't make your AR go any faster. AR v VR is like saying 56k v cable/DSL (cold sim) or T1/3 (hot sim).
And it makes sense, no matter how fast you might physically be, there is technological lag involved in going through peripherals. You can't even comprehend the speed of thought. Seriously. And moving faster physically and "slowing everything down aka bullet time" doesn't make your AR go any faster. AR v VR is like saying 56k v cable/DSL (cold sim) or T1/3 (hot sim).
mind giving some page refrences to where its implied that AR is slower then VR?
grr, by the looks of it, unwired will be one big FAQ...
grr, by the looks of it, unwired will be one big FAQ...
| QUOTE (hobgoblin) |
| mind giving some page refrences to where its implied that AR is slower then VR? grr, by the looks of it, unwired will be one big FAQ... |
since you asked nicely, page 228. subsection "Virtual Reality" towards the end and subsection VR Access mode.
i take it your refering to the "you move at digital speeds, which can be the extra edge you need while pulling a hack job".
notice the "while pulling a hack job" part.
my guess is that this is refering to the "beaking in" part on page 221. there VR is clearly faster then AR.
outside of that we can argue until a FAQ shows up about what the writer wanted to say with "while pulling a hack job"...
notice the "while pulling a hack job" part.
my guess is that this is refering to the "beaking in" part on page 221. there VR is clearly faster then AR.
outside of that we can argue until a FAQ shows up about what the writer wanted to say with "while pulling a hack job"...
| QUOTE (booklord) |
| 1.) Tell me what you think..... 2.) Someone may set his commlink so it only accepts security access(+3) or admin access(+6). Most set it for admin access. 3.) The +4 active alert bonus to firewall does not apply to resisting the Attack program. Using the Attack program automatically triggers an active alert on most systems assuming the system is still up to give one. 4.) Switching from one node to another is a free action, but you cannot take a simple action in one node and then a simple action in another node or in the physical world during the same initiative pass! I gotta draw the line somewhere. 5.) One of the quickest and meanest things you can do to someone once hacked into their commlink is simply download an advertisement virus program. The maximum dice pool modifier you can inflict on the poor soul is -3. To aim for a modifier worse than that you'll need to hack his sim module. Can you imagine forcing an XXX BTL download in the middle of a fight? 6.) Physical reaction has a limited affect on augmented reality initiative. If the player chooses to take an Augmented Reality action during an Initiative pass then subtract his Reaction from his initiative for that initiative pass. In addition he forfeits the right to take an action in any of the remaining initiative passes that combat turn. This is the best I can think of for limiting Augmented Reality initiative without resorting to more dice rolls. 7.) Note that there are limits to how much havoc a hacker can do to a runner's equipment and cyberware. You can turn off the smartlink system, fool with the targeting data, or command the gun to eject its clip but you can't command the gun to fire. That's what triggers are for and they haven't gone as far as to get rid of them yet. Likewise a cyberarm can't be forced to work against its owner. It's controlled by a direct neural interface. But you could trigger an overheat alarm and cause it to shutdown. 8.) A hacker cannot order a drone or agent to do anything that he does not have the command codes for. For example a hacker intercepts the wireless signal of a drone and its owner orders the drone to move forward and scan the area. The hacker cannot order the drone to fire its weapons on its owner because he has not intercepted those command codes for using the weapons yet. Likewise a hacker cannot send a signal commanding a drone to change its subscription list unless he intercepts a message from its owner giving it that command. (As such you can imagine many hackers never transmit such vital command codes) The same holds for intercepting traffic between a Hacker and his agent. The command codes can be gained doing an Analyze on an agent or a drone's pilot program. 9.) A commlink signal may be set to work at a lower signal strength to prevent others from overhearing the signal. It can either be done through a software command or a hardware switch. Anyone connected to the node who is no longer in range will lose their connection. If done through a software command a connecting hacker may try to stop the action using the same method of resisting having his connection terminated. In done by a hardware switch, as might be done by an AR user, then nothing can be done to prevent the connections of all those out of range from being terminated. A signal reduction software command cannot be done by anyone under the effects of Black Hammer or Blackout while a hardware switch under these circumstances will cause the user to crash and suffer dumpshock. |
1.) Very cool. I like some of your ideas and as hacking is one of my favorite things in shadowrun I would like to thank you for sharing your thoughts on the subject.
2.) very nice. I never really thought much about this, I just treated the access as creating a new user ID on the device being hacked.
3.) I see that it would effect anything you wish to do. Any program you try run is being scrutinized severally this would include virus and brut force code that you would be using against the node or it's IC.
4.) I don't see any reason that you can't do multiple actions in different nodes if all they are is windows in your AR. If switching windows is a free action then simple, Free, Simple should be allowed as normal.
5.) Gawd, I love my gun oh yes! I love iiiit! Sorry couldn't resist. but this might not bother a sadistic Street sam since the feeling is basically the same.
I would point out that you may have to turn there sim module on for this to work though.6.) This makes things more complicated than they need to be.
7.) Actually if you read the smartgun link section you can fire their gun or keep it from firing if you hijack it.
8.) Not to keen on this one. Although the commands issued by the control program are each different they tend to be standard in command programs. Any hacker worth his salt or any good rated command program will be able to analyze the software used and the hardware to get the right commands to control the device, i.e. plug and play. Now if the rigger wrote his own unique code, upping the difficulty and requiring a design period and the device was unique in construction. then I would run it as you described.
9.) I like this but I would not allow them to escape a blackhammer or blackout attack. It distracts from the known flavor of the game. blackhammer or blackout should be scary, being able to just crash yourself to get away from dying takes away from the drama.
all in all I like the ideas though.
| QUOTE (hobgoblin) |
| i take it your refering to the "you move at digital speeds, which can be the extra edge you need while pulling a hack job". notice the "while pulling a hack job" part. my guess is that this is refering to the "beaking in" part on page 221. there VR is clearly faster then AR. outside of that we can argue until a FAQ shows up about what the writer wanted to say with "while pulling a hack job"... |
You missed the second part I pointed out, however...
| QUOTE (page 228 subsection VR Access Mode) |
| Virtual Reality is a drastically different experience than AR. Someone interfacing with augmented reality while he walks down the street operates at different speeds from someone tearing through VR landscapes with his mind alone. ... Hackers who want that extra edge utilize an illegally-modified "hot sim" interface instead, risking their neural pathways for a little extra speed. |
edit: Hell, I'd say thats beyond implicit and actually explicit that VR is faster than AR. Otherwise why wouldn't all hackers who could afford is just get some wires and play it totally safe?
Okay, that quote convinces me. I'm going to adopt the house rule that AR users are restricted to one matrix pass, but they can do whatever they want in the meat world with their other actions.
So one matrix complex action or two matrix simple actions per turn, but I don't care if they're mixed in with their physical actions.
So one matrix complex action or two matrix simple actions per turn, but I don't care if they're mixed in with their physical actions.
so i noticed x-kalibur but didnt bother to edit my post in case someone replyed to it while i was doing it.
however, the speed increase they are refering to can be coverd by the change from reaction+intuition to response+logic when calculating initative score. this means that you can have a meat/AR initative of 1+1 and still have a VR initative of 6+6 (or higher if response is ever allowed to go above 6).
hmm, i wonder if response loss from running to many programs can impact your iniative score. would make a theoretical system drop something in the area of cruel and unusual punishment
however, the speed increase they are refering to can be coverd by the change from reaction+intuition to response+logic when calculating initative score. this means that you can have a meat/AR initative of 1+1 and still have a VR initative of 6+6 (or higher if response is ever allowed to go above 6).
hmm, i wonder if response loss from running to many programs can impact your iniative score. would make a theoretical system drop something in the area of cruel and unusual punishment
How about this one then...
| QUOTE (Page 229 subsection Cold Sim) |
| Cold sim is standard, legal VR. When you are fully immersed in virtual reality you operate at the speed of thought. You've cut yourself off from your flesh, making digital commands via direct neural input. Compared to physical meat speeds, you are lightning fast in the matrix. |
again, reaction+intuition vs response+logic.
| QUOTE (hobgoblin) |
| again, reaction+intuition vs response+logic. |
And what if your physical initiative is higher? This also suggests that extra IP involved are not exsistant in AR.
Adding up to more than coincidental evidence though.
just for color they put a nice intro on each chapter. pg 205
", probing for a number of exploitable flaws with the speed and hyper-intensity that only hot sim can provide."
Frogger sure thought he had the fastest way in.
ok. follow me here on page 229 to the most important part of this all. under Hot Sim
"A hot sim interface has been modified to bypass the simsense peak levels that protect your nervous system from damaging biofeedback."
now just five lines down, same page
"It may seem like sheer madness to redline this way, as even random line noise could potentially be translated into lethal amounts of biofeedback, but many hackers rely on the boosted signal strength to provide them the speed they need"
The point is, if your operating at "safe" levels (I.E. your immune to bio-feedback), you can't achieve any greater speed because the signal isn't as strong. You can wave your arms and shoot all you like (see below) but the safe level of feed your getting off the matrix just aint enough juice.
As for initiative and switching, combat section, page 134, Switching Initiative
"If the number of initiative passes available to a character decreases, then that character immediately loses any extra initiative passes for that turn he might have had."
So if you have WR and intend to do something in AR and also use your extra initiative passes, then you had better do that AR action last. It helps if you think of the Matrix as another environment all together (similar to astral).
just for color they put a nice intro on each chapter. pg 205
", probing for a number of exploitable flaws with the speed and hyper-intensity that only hot sim can provide."
Frogger sure thought he had the fastest way in.
ok. follow me here on page 229 to the most important part of this all. under Hot Sim
"A hot sim interface has been modified to bypass the simsense peak levels that protect your nervous system from damaging biofeedback."
now just five lines down, same page
"It may seem like sheer madness to redline this way, as even random line noise could potentially be translated into lethal amounts of biofeedback, but many hackers rely on the boosted signal strength to provide them the speed they need"
The point is, if your operating at "safe" levels (I.E. your immune to bio-feedback), you can't achieve any greater speed because the signal isn't as strong. You can wave your arms and shoot all you like (see below) but the safe level of feed your getting off the matrix just aint enough juice.
As for initiative and switching, combat section, page 134, Switching Initiative
"If the number of initiative passes available to a character decreases, then that character immediately loses any extra initiative passes for that turn he might have had."
So if you have WR and intend to do something in AR and also use your extra initiative passes, then you had better do that AR action last. It helps if you think of the Matrix as another environment all together (similar to astral).
(binary)'s post reminded me that this USED to be a thread about booklord's houserules. I'm sorry for hijacking the thread booklord! I'll go back sometime soon and put my comments on AR IPs in spoilers so as not to distract from the original intent. Or should I move it to new thread? What about back to the VR? thread?
Wiseman, I don't like the tone of our posts. I really don't want this discussion to devovle into a flame war or anything. I'll cool the sarcasm, I promise. Since you did join the conversation a little bit late I'll restate something pretty important here: I'm only trying to play evil's advocate here. I have a pretty similar opinion as everyone else here. Moon-hawk and Serbitar are pretty much where I stand. Their interpretations are fair. I was a little disapointed that when AR IPs came up that no one argued very thoroughly FOR giving AR users thier augmented IPs. A short "I think it just works that way. What's the big deal" post was all the real atention given to the oher side. I wwanted to try arguing that side.
Now, for more AR IP crap (in spoilers now)
I do like (binary)'s comment on number 9:
It distracts from the known flavor of the game. blackhammer or blackout should be scary, being able to just crash yourself to get away from dying takes away from the drama.
That right there seems like a very good reason for adopting your AR IP limiting rule above, too. The tension caused by potential death is eliminated, making gameplay bland. I can sympathize with that. Burning Edge has the same effect, IMO.
booklord, have you purposely changed firing of a smartgun with mental commands? The smartgun section DOES say that you can do it, why have you ruled against it? I don't see the problem being fixed.
Doesn't jacking out after being Black IC'd require a test? I thought it did. Wouldn't switching your signal off/down be the same thing and require a similar test? The Jacking out section seems to mention that turning the comm off doesn't invoke the rath of dumpshock. That's strange. If so I guess you're right about how that would work. Why does jacking out take a (will+biofilter) test if it doesn't affect your mind? The Way I understood this was that Black IC prevented you from willing yourself to jack out by some kind of sim-brainwashing. "I...I can't move my hand!" or "My hand won't pull the plug, dammit!". If that interpretation is right I imagine turning down your signal via switch/dial is limited in the same way pulling the datajack out is and should even limit turning off you comm. What do you think, booklord?
Wiseman, I don't like the tone of our posts. I really don't want this discussion to devovle into a flame war or anything. I'll cool the sarcasm, I promise. Since you did join the conversation a little bit late I'll restate something pretty important here: I'm only trying to play evil's advocate here. I have a pretty similar opinion as everyone else here. Moon-hawk and Serbitar are pretty much where I stand. Their interpretations are fair. I was a little disapointed that when AR IPs came up that no one argued very thoroughly FOR giving AR users thier augmented IPs. A short "I think it just works that way. What's the big deal" post was all the real atention given to the oher side. I wwanted to try arguing that side.
Now, for more AR IP crap (in spoilers now
)[ Spoiler ]
I do like (binary)'s comment on number 9:
It distracts from the known flavor of the game. blackhammer or blackout should be scary, being able to just crash yourself to get away from dying takes away from the drama.
That right there seems like a very good reason for adopting your AR IP limiting rule above, too. The tension caused by potential death is eliminated, making gameplay bland. I can sympathize with that. Burning Edge has the same effect, IMO.
booklord, have you purposely changed firing of a smartgun with mental commands? The smartgun section DOES say that you can do it, why have you ruled against it? I don't see the problem being fixed.
Doesn't jacking out after being Black IC'd require a test? I thought it did. Wouldn't switching your signal off/down be the same thing and require a similar test? The Jacking out section seems to mention that turning the comm off doesn't invoke the rath of dumpshock. That's strange. If so I guess you're right about how that would work. Why does jacking out take a (will+biofilter) test if it doesn't affect your mind? The Way I understood this was that Black IC prevented you from willing yourself to jack out by some kind of sim-brainwashing. "I...I can't move my hand!" or "My hand won't pull the plug, dammit!". If that interpretation is right I imagine turning down your signal via switch/dial is limited in the same way pulling the datajack out is and should even limit turning off you comm. What do you think, booklord?
My reason for giving AR only 1 pass per turn:
Because I want VR to be superior to AR, because of my view of how AR and how VR works. Its just that simple and has nothing to do with balancing. I just want a SR world where VR is much better than AR, because of my view of the SR world.
Of course if you do not share that view, you can just do otherwise. Matters of taste can not be discussed.
Because I want VR to be superior to AR, because of my view of how AR and how VR works. Its just that simple and has nothing to do with balancing. I just want a SR world where VR is much better than AR, because of my view of the SR world.
Of course if you do not share that view, you can just do otherwise. Matters of taste can not be discussed.
| QUOTE |
| just for color they put a nice intro on each chapter. pg 205 ", probing for a number of exploitable flaws with the speed and hyper-intensity that only hot sim can provide." Frogger sure thought he had the fastest way in. |
and the rules directly state that with hot sim you get 2 extra dice on all matrix tests. that in combo with getting a test pr hour when doing probes in VR, rather then pr day in AR, i say the quote is coverd without putting extra limits on AR.
| QUOTE |
ok. follow me here on page 229 to the most important part of this all. under Hot Sim "A hot sim interface has been modified to bypass the simsense peak levels that protect your nervous system from damaging biofeedback." now just five lines down, same page "It may seem like sheer madness to redline this way, as even random line noise could potentially be translated into lethal amounts of biofeedback, but many hackers rely on the boosted signal strength to provide them the speed they need" The point is, if your operating at "safe" levels (I.E. your immune to bio-feedback), you can't achieve any greater speed because the signal isn't as strong. You can wave your arms and shoot all you like (see below) but the safe level of feed your getting off the matrix just aint enough juice. |
+2 dice on all tests, initative score of response+logic+1 (hot sim) and 3 initative passes.
| QUOTE |
| As for initiative and switching, combat section, page 134, Switching Initiative "If the number of initiative passes available to a character decreases, then that character immediately loses any extra initiative passes for that turn he might have had." So if you have WR and intend to do something in AR and also use your extra initiative passes, then you had better do that AR action last. It helps if you think of the Matrix as another environment all together (similar to astral). |
sorry, but you lost me there. why should he be doing the AR action last?
First and foremost, let me just say I respect all your opinions. I spent a decent amount of time reading quite a few posts before even dreaming of posting. I've enjoyed a lot of what you guys have written, there is no conflict here.
Second, we know the rules are sketchy around this area, no one can say it clearly states anything, so its open for debate and interpertation.
But I think the one thing that is clear (to me anyway) is the intent of AR vs VR. What fueled me to even post at all is that I saw the arguements for multiple IP in AR but every time I read the matrix chapter I had this gut feeling that it wasn't right.
I couldn't find anything that said NO extra AR IP's, but I did find a whole lot that suggested it (and little that suggested the contrary).
I think the final point made though is that you simply cannot go as fast if your riding safe levels of the matrix. Your signal isn't strong enough. period.
So at this point I see it as:
1 ) Game breaking (immunity and technomancer speed in AR), my poor techno player would bawl his eyes out for making a less versatile and now slower character.
2) Not in the spirit of the rules. It just lacks that intuitive common sense feel (4 net hits on intuition + logic test)
3) Isn't how the technology works, even if the actual mechanics are unclear.
I think X-Kalibur said it best with the Dial-UP vs DSL comparison. There just isn't enough juice for you to do much off of "safe" periphials no matter how fast you can jerk your arm (or think to jerk your arm).
In the end we all know we're just waiting for the FAQ, but there are so many things that point to 1 AR pass (nothing concrete enough to beat someone over the head with) but enough is suggested (like the fact that digital sprites and agents, who exist without any interface really, can only move 3 IPS) to deduce the intent that AR is slower than VR.
It just makes sense. Usually when there are loop holes you can kind of feel that something isn't right, and it immediately causes more problems than it solves (such as someone using a super-fast and ultimately safe connection).
I'm all for their system to get rid of classes and forced characters, but defined roles aren't the same thing. If it didn't penalize you for being fast in the meat AND fast in the matrix, then wired reflexes becomes the most desireable thing a hacker can have, and I simply cannot see that the game designers made WR with the AR hacker in mind.
As booklord mentioned earlier, they probably didn't even think about it (or thought they were clear).
In the end however, there is FAR FAR more evidence supporting the 1 AR IP than there is to the contrary.
To date the best I've heard is under AR matrix initiative it states use Initiative as normal, but I can't say I see normal (defined in english language as the norm or standard) being a super pumped wired shadowrunner either.
So I challenge that those arguing for the WR AR hand smack hackers to give at least as much evidence to support it. Lack of evidence doesn't count (and I use evidence lightly as it's really more implications).
All I really want from this is a better understanding of the rules, and the most balanced decision I as GM can make for my weekend group.
Second, we know the rules are sketchy around this area, no one can say it clearly states anything, so its open for debate and interpertation.
But I think the one thing that is clear (to me anyway) is the intent of AR vs VR. What fueled me to even post at all is that I saw the arguements for multiple IP in AR but every time I read the matrix chapter I had this gut feeling that it wasn't right.
I couldn't find anything that said NO extra AR IP's, but I did find a whole lot that suggested it (and little that suggested the contrary).
I think the final point made though is that you simply cannot go as fast if your riding safe levels of the matrix. Your signal isn't strong enough. period.
So at this point I see it as:
1 ) Game breaking (immunity and technomancer speed in AR), my poor techno player would bawl his eyes out for making a less versatile and now slower character.
2) Not in the spirit of the rules. It just lacks that intuitive common sense feel (4 net hits on intuition + logic test)
3) Isn't how the technology works, even if the actual mechanics are unclear.
I think X-Kalibur said it best with the Dial-UP vs DSL comparison. There just isn't enough juice for you to do much off of "safe" periphials no matter how fast you can jerk your arm (or think to jerk your arm).
In the end we all know we're just waiting for the FAQ, but there are so many things that point to 1 AR pass (nothing concrete enough to beat someone over the head with) but enough is suggested (like the fact that digital sprites and agents, who exist without any interface really, can only move 3 IPS) to deduce the intent that AR is slower than VR.
It just makes sense. Usually when there are loop holes you can kind of feel that something isn't right, and it immediately causes more problems than it solves (such as someone using a super-fast and ultimately safe connection).
I'm all for their system to get rid of classes and forced characters, but defined roles aren't the same thing. If it didn't penalize you for being fast in the meat AND fast in the matrix, then wired reflexes becomes the most desireable thing a hacker can have, and I simply cannot see that the game designers made WR with the AR hacker in mind.
As booklord mentioned earlier, they probably didn't even think about it (or thought they were clear).
In the end however, there is FAR FAR more evidence supporting the 1 AR IP than there is to the contrary.
To date the best I've heard is under AR matrix initiative it states use Initiative as normal, but I can't say I see normal (defined in english language as the norm or standard) being a super pumped wired shadowrunner either.
So I challenge that those arguing for the WR AR hand smack hackers to give at least as much evidence to support it. Lack of evidence doesn't count (and I use evidence lightly as it's really more implications).
All I really want from this is a better understanding of the rules, and the most balanced decision I as GM can make for my weekend group.
AR actions last because
If you go into AR you get 1 IP (or so I contend), so then you'd be getting less IP's and thus forfiet any remaining IP's from WR you had left.
Again, it really clicks when you think of the matrix like another plane (similar to astral). AR/VR are both matrix. The matrix has its own rules on time that are not in anyway connected to how fast a signal gets from your brain to your finger. Its based on connection speeds, OS responsiveness, and we all know this word...LAG.
The spirit of AR was that you could perceive the matrix while walking down the street. People use this for shopping and menu's and buying tickets. You can hack through it, but I wouldn't call you cutting edge if you did.
To me its the difference between looking through a window or opening a door
If you go into AR you get 1 IP (or so I contend), so then you'd be getting less IP's and thus forfiet any remaining IP's from WR you had left.
Again, it really clicks when you think of the matrix like another plane (similar to astral). AR/VR are both matrix. The matrix has its own rules on time that are not in anyway connected to how fast a signal gets from your brain to your finger. Its based on connection speeds, OS responsiveness, and we all know this word...LAG.
The spirit of AR was that you could perceive the matrix while walking down the street. People use this for shopping and menu's and buying tickets. You can hack through it, but I wouldn't call you cutting edge if you did.
To me its the difference between looking through a window or opening a door
| QUOTE |
| booklord, have you purposely changed firing of a smartgun with mental commands? The smartgun section DOES say that you can do it, why have you ruled against it? I don't see the problem being fixed. |
Actually thats news to me. I assumed, erroneously probably, that if a gun had a trigger then its default mode would be that you could not fire it remotely. No I haven't houseruled the smartgun, and it's completely reasonable to fire a smartgun remotely through the smartlink system. That said a lot of runners would be well advised to have their smartgun set up so it doesn't do this. Probably a hardware-logic or armorer-logic test to set your gun the way you want it. Another item you might want to limit when it comes to software control is the safety.
The point on that section comes to the runner limiting his vulnerability to outside hackers by limiting the amount of control that you can actually be achieved through outside access. For example you could run diagnostics on a cyberlimb put the actual movement commands are normally done through a Direct Neural Interface. You could set up your cyberarm to move based of software commands. Heck you could conceivably set it up to operate indendently of your body. Imagine if you will a hacker with a cyberlimb who orders it to fire at incoming baddies using a pilot and weaponfire programs while he goes VR to handle a matrix threat.
Getting back to guns. If I were running a samurai I'd either disable the smartgun-mental-fire or set it up that that I could turn it on or off with a hardware switch. Could you imagine the damage a hacker could do if he hacked the fire controls of Hininjai's grenade launcher? Hininjai knows that he's got a decent commlink with some decent programs but in no way is he on par with a dedicated hacker or technomancer. Any responsible samurai would limit his vulnerabilities.
| QUOTE |
| Doesn't jacking out after being Black IC'd require a test? I thought it did. Wouldn't switching your signal off/down be the same thing and require a similar test? The Jacking out section seems to mention that turning the comm off doesn't invoke the rath of dumpshock. That's strange. If so I guess you're right about how that would work. Why does jacking out take a (will+biofilter) test if it doesn't affect your mind? The Way I understood this was that Black IC prevented you from willing yourself to jack out by some kind of sim-brainwashing. "I...I can't move my hand!" or "My hand won't pull the plug, dammit!". If that interpretation is right I imagine turning down your signal via switch/dial is limited in the same way pulling the datajack out is and should even limit turning off you comm. What do you think, booklord? |
I believe my current house-rule, apologies if it wasn't clear, is that once your hit by a Black attack you cannot take any actions to change or control your connection. You cannot switch from VR to AR mode. You cannot change you signal strength. You cannot initiate a system reset of your commlink. You can't even send a signal back to your commlink to set off a little, blinking light to alert your fellow runners that you've been jammed and need them to unplug you. You're stuck in the node with the Black attacker until
1) The Black Attacker lets you go.
2) The Black Attacker is crashed.
3) You crash. Theortically the truely desperate could hit themselves with their own Attack program. It should be noted that technomancers crash automatically when their physical or stun tracks are filled.
4) YOu will yourself to resist the sim-brainwashing and take the dumpshock.
A bio-monitor or some sort of commlink-monitor for that matter set up to independently may be set up to turn off the commlink when it detects you've run into trouble. I houseruled that it will cause dumpshock damage as you are no longer capable of a graceful logoff. Of course the downside to that is a runner may not want to log off.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"Gomer and Black IC traded blows. He felt the stabbing pain of the Black Hammer attack but his bio-filter program held. The Black IC was not so lucky. Gomer's attack program caused it to unravel into its individual bits of code. Gomer laughed. He was merely an Edit program away from copying the datafile and the 100,000¥ was as good as his. Then his bio-monitor detecting he had taken a significant ammount of injury kicked in. Gomer screamed helplessly as his commlink turned off and he was dragged back to the real world."
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| QUOTE (Wiseman @ Jul 20 2006, 03:01 PM) |
| AR actions last because If you go into AR you get 1 IP (or so I contend), so then you'd be getting less IP's and thus forfiet any remaining IP's from WR you had left. Again, it really clicks when you think of the matrix like another plane (similar to astral). AR/VR are both matrix. The matrix has its own rules on time that are not in anyway connected to how fast a signal gets from your brain to your finger. Its based on connection speeds, OS responsiveness, and we all know this word...LAG. The spirit of AR was that you could perceive the matrix while walking down the street. People use this for shopping and menu's and buying tickets. You can hack through it, but I wouldn't call you cutting edge if you did. To me its the difference between looking through a window or opening a door |
if AR is supposedly comparable to astral perception then wired reflexes and the like will have to apply, as you dont suddenly drop to 1 iniative pass the moment you go astral perception, never have in all version of SR i have, and i cant think of any reason why.
but it does not come up often as the mages avoid wired reflexes and similar becuase they cost essence. only the magical kind would be cost effective to them.
and the rules can imply any effect they want, unless its spelled out in clear letters, you cant be sure if that was what the writer had in mind. writing rpg rules using implied effects are a very messy way of writing rpg rules...
but what your missing is astral perception doesn't let you take actions other than observe, aka assensing.
Its a skill.
Observe in detail in AR is a Matrix action.
just plain observing is not however. So you could "see" AR without penalty, its when you interact with it that it matters.
Its a skill.
Observe in detail in AR is a Matrix action.
just plain observing is not however. So you could "see" AR without penalty, its when you interact with it that it matters.
of course I can't pretend to know exactly what the designers meant. ergo the discussion at all.
Hell, if I just wanted to accept my own interpertation I wouldn't have posted at all. I'm doing this so I can be a more effective GM. Easier to solve the problems off the table then when the game is on.
Again, windows and doors. If windows were a faster method of entry, no one would have doors as windows would serve both purposes. Nothing says you can't go through a window, but you can't argue its more efficient than a door.
I'm curious how many of you guys are wearing the GM hat and how many are players.
And hobgoblin, I'd say you've successfully stood your ground with the "It doesn't say that", so I ask that you submit supporting evidence of why AR is faster than VR. show me some examples of it.
Hell, if I just wanted to accept my own interpertation I wouldn't have posted at all. I'm doing this so I can be a more effective GM. Easier to solve the problems off the table then when the game is on.
Again, windows and doors. If windows were a faster method of entry, no one would have doors as windows would serve both purposes. Nothing says you can't go through a window, but you can't argue its more efficient than a door.
I'm curious how many of you guys are wearing the GM hat and how many are players.
And hobgoblin, I'd say you've successfully stood your ground with the "It doesn't say that", so I ask that you submit supporting evidence of why AR is faster than VR. show me some examples of it.
| QUOTE |
| if AR is supposedly comparable to astral perception then wired reflexes and the like will have to apply, as you dont suddenly drop to 1 iniative pass the moment you go astral perception, never have in all version of SR i have, and i cant think of any reason why. |
The difference being that someone using astral perception takes a swing at a nearby spirit, his body does the motion with him. As long as your astrally percieving or dual-natured and not projecting then every motion of action you take in either plane is reflected on the other one.
But a hacker whose operating in AR mode deosn't do that. As long as he can communicate to his sim module, his physical actions do not mimic his virtual actions.
Someone going the imagelink-sound link-AR Gloves route would but I can't imagine any self respecting hacker sinking so low. Besides the limitations for using AR Gloves would probably be severe.
| QUOTE |
| Besides the limitations for using AR Gloves would probably be severe. |
so far none are given in the book...
Is it more likely that they intended AR to be faster with wired reflexes and accidently put in all kinds of fluff that implies Hot Sim VR is the fastest stuff around, further limiting agent/sprites to a "digital speed" of 3 IP's, capping Hot Sim at "two extra passes (total three)" and just added the words extra for fun (rather than just saying you get 2 for cold sim and 3 for hot), explicitly stating Hot Sim gets its speed by bypassing the "safe" levels of biofeedback to get a stronger signal, and mentioning the following three telling words under AR initiative (normal, meat, regular) in the span of one small paragraph.
OR
that they simply forgot to add a single sentence excluding WR from AR actions?
Akim's razor
OR
that they simply forgot to add a single sentence excluding WR from AR actions?
Akim's razor
sorry, but said razor do not allways apply when it comes to the writing of rpg rules.
it could be that the writer of the matrix chapter either had not tought of the impact of wired reflexes on AR, or just wrote the entire chapter based on a comparison between a unaugmentet person using AR and VR.
under that senario, VR can fly when all else is equal.
it could be that the writer of the matrix chapter either had not tought of the impact of wired reflexes on AR, or just wrote the entire chapter based on a comparison between a unaugmentet person using AR and VR.
under that senario, VR can fly when all else is equal.
so lets see some supporting evidence.
I'd like an explanation of how your faster reflexes gives you a "stronger signal" needed for that kind of speed.
I'd like to know how you'd explain how a completely matrix based independent program runs slower than you can type.
I'm interested if your WR super reflexes means you allow your players that have lesser B/R times since they can move so fast. Shouldn't your hacker with WR be able to write a program faster? Hell why stop there, maybe your faster than bullets too, lets add the WR rating bonus to the opposed attack test.
Why buy a vehicle? obviously you can run at superhuman speeds too! Man isn't WR the greatest! Explains why all the corp wage slaves have at least WR1 to make them work faster.
Point - the WR doesn't stack with anything else..thats it.
The fluff thats getting confused here is the stuff under WR. Yup your fast, all that means in the game is you get 1-3 extra IP's for physical actions
WR - Physical, AR - Matrix
I'd like an explanation of how your faster reflexes gives you a "stronger signal" needed for that kind of speed.
I'd like to know how you'd explain how a completely matrix based independent program runs slower than you can type.
I'm interested if your WR super reflexes means you allow your players that have lesser B/R times since they can move so fast. Shouldn't your hacker with WR be able to write a program faster? Hell why stop there, maybe your faster than bullets too, lets add the WR rating bonus to the opposed attack test.
Why buy a vehicle? obviously you can run at superhuman speeds too! Man isn't WR the greatest! Explains why all the corp wage slaves have at least WR1 to make them work faster.
Point - the WR doesn't stack with anything else..thats it.
The fluff thats getting confused here is the stuff under WR. Yup your fast, all that means in the game is you get 1-3 extra IP's for physical actions
WR - Physical, AR - Matrix
| QUOTE (hobgoblin) | ||
so far none are given in the book... |
The two or three sentences given to decribe the function of AR gloves simply doesn't cover it.
In any event being resticted to point and click, or a virtual keyboard when using AR would be horrendously debilitating compared to those using a more direct interface.
I don't have house rules for it since it has never come up, but I'd say the most reasoned method would probably be to say that an AR glove only user would be only able to perform actions requiring no die roll or use programs without linking them to a skill. ( Making on the fly adjustments would be fairly difficult using AR Gloves )
But like I said it has never come up and its not likely to. The only character in my campaign to use AR Gloves is a Fox Shapeshifter who uses image-link glasses and an ear-piece. ( Absolutely refuses to use simsense ) And since he's got the Uneducated flaw anyway penalizing him for AR actions is like putting movement penalties on a snail.
| QUOTE |
| I'd like to know how you'd explain how a completely matrix based independent program runs slower than you can type. |
As long as you're operating with a simsense feed, you shouldn't need to type. You still should be able to send mental commands directly to the matrix.
Nope, you'd mentally type, but still type all the same.
Simsense AR isn't full simsense (just some of it).
Sure you could interface with just a thought, but your still manipulating peripherals the same as you would with AR gloves (which is why there is no bonus or penalty between the gloves and a sim mod). The penalty is already factored in using AR as your operating at "Safe" levels of biofeedback (and also distracted by the physical world).
They both perform the same function..the same way, whether I press the digital button with a AR glove finger or I press it with the mouse in my mind.
Simsense AR isn't full simsense (just some of it).
Sure you could interface with just a thought, but your still manipulating peripherals the same as you would with AR gloves (which is why there is no bonus or penalty between the gloves and a sim mod). The penalty is already factored in using AR as your operating at "Safe" levels of biofeedback (and also distracted by the physical world).
They both perform the same function..the same way, whether I press the digital button with a AR glove finger or I press it with the mouse in my mind.
| QUOTE |
| I'm curious how many of you guys are wearing the GM hat and how many are players. |
I'm wearing the player hat myself. I've just always loved deckers and want to make sure they get the respect in the matrix they deserve.
both, and neither, if that made any sense.
i just try to have the rules make sense as written.
btw, i thought the deckers in SR4 where dinos, replaced by hackers
i just try to have the rules make sense as written.
btw, i thought the deckers in SR4 where dinos, replaced by hackers
| QUOTE (hobgoblin) |
| both, and neither, if that made any sense. i just try to have the rules make sense as written. btw, i thought the deckers in SR4 where dinos, replaced by hackers |
Yeah, I know, but deckers had so much more flavor... what their yamaha synthesizers on their backs... err I mean decks on their backs...
time to get with the present old timer
why have this archaic old deck when you can have a small box in your pocket that can talk to any nearby system, without wires, and without the need to ignore the real world
why have this archaic old deck when you can have a small box in your pocket that can talk to any nearby system, without wires, and without the need to ignore the real world
| QUOTE (hobgoblin) |
| time to get with the present old timer why have this archaic old deck when you can have a small box in your pocket that can talk to any nearby system, without wires, and without the need to ignore the real world |
Hahaha, yeah, I'm the old timer who loves the concept of TMs (the only one maybe???)
One of these days I'm going to try and make a TM/Rigger
The reason I asked is simply to understand where everyone is coming from. Not to imply any of you fine gentlemen were looking for exploits, but it seems a lot easier to understand why a player would argue for multiple AR than a GM would.
As a GM, and disregarding every implied statement and my general gut feeling of how the game is played, It really comes down to this for me.
If I go to my game this weekend and announce that the big uncouth troll street sam can spend a little of his nuyen for a better commlink, programs, and spend even a few karma on hacking or computer, he can stomp the pot-head technomancer on his home turf, somebody would quit playing.
The RAW only exists to lay down balanced and general guidelines of how to have fun with your imagination. Anyone can do what they want to. But as a GM I have a responsibility to the players not to allow someone to be the "super-guy can do anything" and everyone else is just there for a little variety.
Most of the game is covered by two types of actions (not counting roleplaying and fun). These amount to basically attacking and the matrix. I simply cannot see the balance (nevermind any fluff implied or otherwise) that would allow AR to go faster than VR. Even if I were to allow this, it would be a seperate cyber implant reminescient of response increase from deckers.
I could debate with myself all day, but I really want to know how others handle it. The RAW and the book itself tried to lay down a simple mechanic that has a certain intuitive feel for how things work, and I really don't see anyone with a strong arguement against it other than the WR fluff says I go fast.
I suppose the question is then, is the Matrix its own environment. meaning there are three that I see (excluding metaplanes and deep resonance which are fluff mostly) as Astral, Matrix, & Physical.
I find further distinction between the Matrix and the physical in that they use two totally different combat systems in different parts of the book, different perceptions as well. And under the Combat section actions it clearly states that AR/VR stuff is handled as a Matrix actions.
The ONLY thing I see in common between the Matrix and the Physical is the line "at regular meat-body speeds", which some contend means physical (and it does, as unmodified initiative). But that doesn't mean I can shoot my gun at a matrix object.
To me the intent of WR was to make you fast in the physical and physical alone, and this seems in line with how every other environment works in the game.
Rather than change the dozen confusing references of VR's speed over AR, or even add a line to either AR initiative or WR to state that you don't get to use the WR passes for AR, I'd simply say its like your IN the matrix when interacting with AR and viewing the physical than your IN the physical viewing AR. By seperating Matrix out, all the rules seem to quickly line back up (and according to the whole initiative section in the combat area of the book) actually was made to account for it.
Am I alone in this feeling/assumption? We could argue semantics/nomenclature all day, but when its all done, its for the balance of the players that a GM must decide. Which is why I keep bringing up what is the implied INTENT of the RAW. Not what it failed to say.
Now if anyone wants to debate that the whole matrix section left them with the impression AR was the newest/fastest thing out there, I'd like to know where and on what they base that assumption (as others and myself have provided evidence to support the assumption that AR is slower)
As a GM, and disregarding every implied statement and my general gut feeling of how the game is played, It really comes down to this for me.
If I go to my game this weekend and announce that the big uncouth troll street sam can spend a little of his nuyen for a better commlink, programs, and spend even a few karma on hacking or computer, he can stomp the pot-head technomancer on his home turf, somebody would quit playing.
The RAW only exists to lay down balanced and general guidelines of how to have fun with your imagination. Anyone can do what they want to. But as a GM I have a responsibility to the players not to allow someone to be the "super-guy can do anything" and everyone else is just there for a little variety.
Most of the game is covered by two types of actions (not counting roleplaying and fun). These amount to basically attacking and the matrix. I simply cannot see the balance (nevermind any fluff implied or otherwise) that would allow AR to go faster than VR. Even if I were to allow this, it would be a seperate cyber implant reminescient of response increase from deckers.
I could debate with myself all day, but I really want to know how others handle it. The RAW and the book itself tried to lay down a simple mechanic that has a certain intuitive feel for how things work, and I really don't see anyone with a strong arguement against it other than the WR fluff says I go fast.
I suppose the question is then, is the Matrix its own environment. meaning there are three that I see (excluding metaplanes and deep resonance which are fluff mostly) as Astral, Matrix, & Physical.
I find further distinction between the Matrix and the physical in that they use two totally different combat systems in different parts of the book, different perceptions as well. And under the Combat section actions it clearly states that AR/VR stuff is handled as a Matrix actions.
The ONLY thing I see in common between the Matrix and the Physical is the line "at regular meat-body speeds", which some contend means physical (and it does, as unmodified initiative). But that doesn't mean I can shoot my gun at a matrix object.
To me the intent of WR was to make you fast in the physical and physical alone, and this seems in line with how every other environment works in the game.
Rather than change the dozen confusing references of VR's speed over AR, or even add a line to either AR initiative or WR to state that you don't get to use the WR passes for AR, I'd simply say its like your IN the matrix when interacting with AR and viewing the physical than your IN the physical viewing AR. By seperating Matrix out, all the rules seem to quickly line back up (and according to the whole initiative section in the combat area of the book) actually was made to account for it.
Am I alone in this feeling/assumption? We could argue semantics/nomenclature all day, but when its all done, its for the balance of the players that a GM must decide. Which is why I keep bringing up what is the implied INTENT of the RAW. Not what it failed to say.
Now if anyone wants to debate that the whole matrix section left them with the impression AR was the newest/fastest thing out there, I'd like to know where and on what they base that assumption (as others and myself have provided evidence to support the assumption that AR is slower)
AR Crap
[ Spoiler ]
Ghost, you have to read all the posts.
The reason VR is faster due to signal is shown in the first two paragraphs under Hot Sim.
Hackers risk redlining to biofeedback to gain the stronger signal necessary for greater speed.
The thing about programs being faster is stated in Matrix initiative for agents/IC/sprites that they operate at digital speeds (with no interface mind you) for a total of 3 IP's. Same with drones or riggers
I mean come on, thats like saying I can Use a program faster than the program can use itself.
No one can show me how moving faster in the physical under "safe" speeds (e.g. no biofeedback possible) with a weaker signal can go faster than a guy who has cut out all the barriers and is ripping through the matrix at "unsafe" speeds and risking himself to potential and lethal or long term damage.
I can type this post as fast as I want to, but it will only submit at speeds regulated by my connection.
AR = 1IP
CVR = 2 IP
HVR = 3 IP
TECHNO overclocking = 4 IP
Not only does it make a nice little pattern, it makes sense.
But you still have not answered or attempted to answer whether you think its balance if my troll sam can hack faster and safer than the solely-built-for-that-purpose technomancer can.
The reason VR is faster due to signal is shown in the first two paragraphs under Hot Sim.
Hackers risk redlining to biofeedback to gain the stronger signal necessary for greater speed.
The thing about programs being faster is stated in Matrix initiative for agents/IC/sprites that they operate at digital speeds (with no interface mind you) for a total of 3 IP's. Same with drones or riggers
I mean come on, thats like saying I can Use a program faster than the program can use itself.
No one can show me how moving faster in the physical under "safe" speeds (e.g. no biofeedback possible) with a weaker signal can go faster than a guy who has cut out all the barriers and is ripping through the matrix at "unsafe" speeds and risking himself to potential and lethal or long term damage.
I can type this post as fast as I want to, but it will only submit at speeds regulated by my connection.
AR = 1IP
CVR = 2 IP
HVR = 3 IP
TECHNO overclocking = 4 IP
Not only does it make a nice little pattern, it makes sense.
But you still have not answered or attempted to answer whether you think its balance if my troll sam can hack faster and safer than the solely-built-for-that-purpose technomancer can.
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