Is it just me or does it seem that every corp or ganger with a bit of firepower seem to have one of these units? I was just checking some of the old printed adventures I got and most of the new ones and it seems that every corp slag seem to be standard issue. To me it would seem that Russian State arsenals might not be that open to selling them to the corps, or at least the corps might better equip their teams with FN- HARs, and Colt M-22s. Maybe that's just me.
Now given that there's probably also tons of eastern european and chinese knock offs, it just seems quality wise these would be bottom of the chain.
Now here's the big kicker question. Do you always throw the AK in there or do you spice things up a bit giving the opponents a bit of arms differentiation to make every corp sec team a bit more trademarked if you will.
Secondly do we know where the major production lines are for these automatic death machines are in the world of 2060? By that I mean specific locations.
Full Version: The ubiquious AK-97
AK-97s should be everywhere. i don't give them to higher-end sec forces, but i give them to everybody else.
As a character I aint seen them to be honest.
they really shouldn't be common if the opposition is above street or low-end merc.
Agreed. They are basically a cheap, generic assault rifle with no frills. Now that Cannon Companion has the Colt M-23 (which is a similar bare-bones gun), you can mix it up a bit more, but the AK-97 will definitely be the most common assault rifle carried by street punks, gangers, and corporate types on a budget.
No AK-97s in my game, just the AK-100 (AK-103, AK-104, AK-105) series and AK-147, as well as earlier AKs (AK-74, AK-47) and other Russian assault rifles. Western corps use other weapons, mostly Colt M22s (no integral grenade launchers in most ARs IMG), S-K uses G38s, Japanacorps use weird toy weapons, etc.
One of the advantages to the stripped-downs and no-frills assault rifles is that you can add all your own customizations and don't have anything unneccesary to tear out.
The AK (Avtomat Kalashnikov) moniker suggest actual Russian manufacture. All Russian AK rifles have been manufactured at the Izhevsk Machine Tool Plant (IZHMASH) in Izhevsk, Russia (about 600 miles east of Moscow), and I don't see any reason for production of newer rifles to move anywhere else. Though IZHMASH has already long since passed up "97" in their numbering scheme, so that doesn't exactly fit.
There are plenty of other countries that manufacture or have manufactured the AKM or rifles heavily based on the AKM. Bulgaria, China, Croatia, Egypt, Finland, Hungary, India, Iran, Iraq, Israel, Poland, Romania, Serbia, South Africa, and probably a few others that aren't coming to mind at the moment. Though, again, I doubt that any of them would use the AK acronym.
There are several examples of the newer AK an AN rifles at my site.
There are plenty of other countries that manufacture or have manufactured the AKM or rifles heavily based on the AKM. Bulgaria, China, Croatia, Egypt, Finland, Hungary, India, Iran, Iraq, Israel, Poland, Romania, Serbia, South Africa, and probably a few others that aren't coming to mind at the moment. Though, again, I doubt that any of them would use the AK acronym.
There are several examples of the newer AK an AN rifles at my site.
| QUOTE (lodestar) |
| I was just checking some of the old printed adventures I got and most of the new ones and it seems that every corp slag seem to be standard issue. |
How many UZI IIIs did you see? Used to be, everyone carried those... except elves. They had Crusader MPs.
I throw in sawed-off shotguns and street-sweepers once and a while.
Heh. Street Sweepers. I still love 'em. "It seems that he was shooting at you with a blackpowder gun made primarily of a steel pipe."
Oddly enough, my street punks don't tend to use assault rifles. Pistols, pipes, pieces of rebar, knives, chains, baseball bats, and the occasional metahuman, sure...
While concealability is a real problem with assault rifles, I can't think of any other reasons why street gangs wouldn't be packing AKs. One reason street punks should have them is that they're much cheaper than most reliable semi-automatic pistols -- ~$250-300 for an AK-47 IRL vs. $450-500 for a Glock 17, for example.
I have no problems with street gangs having AKs, especially if you are talking about those in the security Z-zone areas. But the important thing to remember is that the skill level of the gangers are not likely to be higher than 3.
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) |
| While concealability is a real problem with assault rifles, I can't think of any other reasons why street gangs wouldn't be packing AKs. One reason street punks should have them is that they're much cheaper than most reliable semi-automatic pistols -- ~$250-300 for an AK-47 IRL vs. $450-500 for a Glock 17, for example. |
Keep in mind that street prices usually end up being more about restrictions than initial cost.
In sufficiently unpleasant neighborhoods, I can get a Glock and a couple mags for around $200, give or take a bit. You don't know where it's been and you don't ask, but it's a gun and it works. An AK, on the other hand, will run you easily double that because it either has to be modified from civilian manufacture or smuggled by our boys in red. They're still quite available and there's no reason for them not to be around for bigger, nastier gangs to use, but cheap SMGs, pistols, and shotguns are going to vastly outnumber assault rifles.
It doesn't seem very likely to me that assault rifles will become less available on the streets in the next 60 years. Extraterritoriality helps immensely, as does the large number of nationstates in North America (and Europe) where civilian ownership of military weapons will be much more common and far less restricted than in the USA. And as cheap as $200 is for a Glock 17, AKs are much cheaper still (often well under $100) in places where they cross over from the military to the black market quite freely. In the late 90s, it was widely reported that an AK-47 could be purchased in Russia for 50-100 FIM ($9-18) -- might not have been true, but even $50 would be pretty damn cheap for such a weapon.
In any case, I have never seen firearms legislation which would restrict SMGs less than ARs. However, concealability does favor SMGs, and it's hard to fire an AR gangsta-style.
In any case, I have never seen firearms legislation which would restrict SMGs less than ARs. However, concealability does favor SMGs, and it's hard to fire an AR gangsta-style.
All of the sudden I have this vison of a troll, elbow way up in the air, holding this big greasy Ak sideways... Thank you for brightning my monday.
| QUOTE |
| But the important thing to remember is that the skill level of the gangers are not likely to be higher than 3. |
Thats what suppression fire is for, no skill needed. Or you oculd use searching fire.
Yet another fun game feature (the play on the well known AK-47) picked apart by the vultures of "keeping it real".
It's a fantasy game already, sheesh.
/flame off.
It's a fantasy game already, sheesh.
/flame off.
| QUOTE (Chance359) | ||
Thats what suppression fire is for, no skill needed. Or you oculd use searching fire. |
Funny, my german copy of the CC states that you need a skill to make damage if you are using both sets of rules.
SYL
You do a skill test to stage the damage, but hitting is easy.
You're right about needing skill, but I guess I prefer the SR2 suppression fire rule. Known as the "lead-air" theory.
Don't recall that, what's different from the 3rd edition rules?
In my games, very few people carry assault rifles around -- they are not exactly what you'd call "subtle" or "concealable," after all. Most runners and gangers (even Mafia or Yakuza goons) are going to carry SMGs at best, just because you can conceal one under a long coat without too much trouble. Assault rifles are going to be used by SWAT or military troops, or maybe by one or two goons out of a big group.
Of course, that's assuming the game is in an urban area -- if you are in Africa, or the middle of nowhere in the NAN states, or hunkered down in the Yucatan, things are going to be different. Remember that AK-47s, Chinese knockoffs of AK-47s, Singaporean knockoffs of Chinese knockoffs of AK-47s, etc are some of the most common firearms on the face of the earth right now, because they are cheap and easy to manufacture, easy to operate, and durable as all hell (they aren't particularly GOOD, in terms of accuracy, anyway, but they are durable). I think I remember hearing that in Africa you can buy an AK-47 for $50. The AK-97 is the heir to this legacy, so in my games the AK-97 is used by every two-bit revolutionary, drug kingpin, or third-world paramilitary type you find.
Of course, that's assuming the game is in an urban area -- if you are in Africa, or the middle of nowhere in the NAN states, or hunkered down in the Yucatan, things are going to be different. Remember that AK-47s, Chinese knockoffs of AK-47s, Singaporean knockoffs of Chinese knockoffs of AK-47s, etc are some of the most common firearms on the face of the earth right now, because they are cheap and easy to manufacture, easy to operate, and durable as all hell (they aren't particularly GOOD, in terms of accuracy, anyway, but they are durable). I think I remember hearing that in Africa you can buy an AK-47 for $50. The AK-97 is the heir to this legacy, so in my games the AK-97 is used by every two-bit revolutionary, drug kingpin, or third-world paramilitary type you find.
| QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll) |
| Yet another fun game feature (the play on the well known AK-47) picked apart by the vultures of "keeping it real". It's a fantasy game already, sheesh. /flame off. |
*sniffle*
Goddamnit.
Just because it is cheap and has (relatively) loose tolerances doesn't mean it has to be innaccurate. I think a lot of people just have trouble because of the location of (an type) of the rear sight.
I've used AK-47's on many occasions (just about any time we were going behind enemy lines) and have found it to be a reasonably accurate weapon. Now if you start going full-auto with the thing you're not going to hit much, but for quick double-taps it was very effective. The only problem I had with the thing was that it always felt kindof heavy.
edited for grammatical error
Just because it is cheap and has (relatively) loose tolerances doesn't mean it has to be innaccurate. I think a lot of people just have trouble because of the location of (an type) of the rear sight.
I've used AK-47's on many occasions (just about any time we were going behind enemy lines) and have found it to be a reasonably accurate weapon. Now if you start going full-auto with the thing you're not going to hit much, but for quick double-taps it was very effective. The only problem I had with the thing was that it always felt kindof heavy.
edited for grammatical error
no, it's inaccurate because it's poorly-made. not all of them, but most of them, especially the cheap knock-offs. yeah, it's possible to get an accurate AK-47, but you have to shop around and pay a bit more.
| QUOTE (FrostyNSO) |
| I've used AK-47's on many occasions (just about any time we were going behind enemy lines) and have found it to be a reasonably accurate weapon. Now if you start going full-auto with the thing you're not going to hit much, but for quick double-taps it was very effective. The only problem I had with the thing was that it always felt kindof heavy. edited for grammatical error |
Seriously? Or was that IC?
Seriously.
Just checkin'. Ya never know 'round these parts...
If you don't mind me asking, what enemy lines did you go behind?
If you don't mind me asking, what enemy lines did you go behind?
Whenever we were inserted into any country where we wouldn't be linked to support, or we knew we were going to be in the field longer than a day or two.
Operated in the Congo, Iran and most recently in Ivory Coast. Before that, lotta stuff in the Serbia/Bosnia/Kosovo area.
Operated in the Congo, Iran and most recently in Ivory Coast. Before that, lotta stuff in the Serbia/Bosnia/Kosovo area.
I can testify that most of our standard issue RK-62s were accurate to at least 2-2.5 MoA with the standard ball ammunition -- they had to be since they could reliably hit the 10cm diameter bull's-eye of the normal rifle targets at 150 meters from a benchrest. Not exactly up to sniper standards, but reasonably accurate within 300 meters apart from the looping trajectory.
| QUOTE (FrostyNSO) |
| Goddamnit. Just because it is cheap and has (relatively) loose tolerances doesn't mean it has to be innaccurate. I think a lot of people just have trouble because of the location of (an type) of the rear sight. |
The rear sight, the location of the selector and the creepiest trigger known to man are what bother me the most about the AK design, and two of those can be fixed pretty easily. Just buy a good scope mount, a red dot sight and a trigger group from Power Custom. The selector you pretty much just have to live with. The weight is fine with me, so long as I know there's a 123 grain bullet moving downrange @ 2400 fps.
Loose tolerances do directly translate to a loss of accuracy, especially when you're talking about the tolerances between the bolt, trunnion block, and barrel of the AK design, which aren't held very tightly at all. The bonus to that is that reliability is substantially improved. The trick is being able to make a rifle that is reliable and accurate enough, which Kalashnikov definitely succeeded in doing. IMO, the AK rifles are certainly accurate enough for 300-400 meter work, which was the intent all along.
I have a Romanian SAR-1 (semi-auto AKM in 7.62x39mm), and it's probably about as bad as you can get as far as quality of manufacture is concerned, and it's not that bad. I paid $280 for it. Still, it's reliable as all hell (I've put around 3,000 rounds through it without one single failure to feed or fire) and after a little trigger work, it shoots right around 3 MOA pretty readily using iron sights, which translates to 12" at 400 yards. Far from the best accuracy in the world, but certainly good enough for a military rifle. The ammunition from Barnaul (marketed as Brown Bear in the US) seems to be more consistent than the stuff from Tula (marketed as Wolf).
I also have a 20" Rock River AR15, and it will shoot around 1.5-2 MOA with irons. A bit of an improvement over the AKM. I've had this one for three months now, have put about 350 rounds through it and it's misfed twice, both times within the last couple rounds of one particular surplus magazine I have (had a weak spring). I haven't let it get real dirty yet, though.
Honestly, if I had to go fight and had the choice between an M16A2 and an AKM, I'd probably take the AKM.
Good lord. We have these Bushmaster XM-15's we use at my work now. I can't count how many problems we've had with those, even when kept in immaculate condition, and don't even get me started on the Bushmaster high-cap mags and their crappy welds.
I would take an AK into the field any day.
I would take an AK into the field any day.
Remember that many of the "AK-97"s around in the Sixth World might actually be variants, even ones that use different caliber rounds (such as the Galil/Magal series using 5.56 and 0.3 Carbine respectively). The Shadowrun rules don't go into the differences between Russian and NATO calibers, so all these variants have the same stats.
But anyway, I'd really like to see an NPC in a published adventure use FN HARs or other high-end rifles.
But anyway, I'd really like to see an NPC in a published adventure use FN HARs or other high-end rifles.
I rmember all of the older modules had Azzie corp sec using AKs. I always thought that was pretty lame. So I usually gave vz88v's. Just to be different. 
I always thought it was weird that in the Aztlan book the elite units all used Ares Alphas, when throughout the rest of the book I had gotten the impression that the Azzies really really hated Ares (Like not letting the employees, past, present, or even indirect into the country). I also thought it was a little weird that the rifle that came up the most often in SR was a Russian rifle, when so little is said about Russia after the Lone Eagle incident and the Eurowars, but then again, I guess it does make sense if every AK-97 out there is either 50 years old or is a cheap knockoff from plants outside Russia.
The Alpha is good gun in SR terms. If youi're not happy that its made by ares you can just change the name and keep the stats, like, the "Aztechnology Primerio" (or something in Spanish)
| QUOTE (CircuitBoyBlue) |
| I always thought it was weird that in the Aztlan book the elite units all used Ares Alphas |
It's because the only line in all of SR canon that supports the "these guns are simply representations of the overall market and not the entirety of all firearms in existence" is in Mulvihill's little note at the beginning of the Canon Companion.
| QUOTE (Raygun) | ||
*sniffle* |
*Hands Ray a lollipop*
| QUOTE (Arethusa) | ||
It's because the only line in all of SR canon that supports the "these guns are simply representations of the overall market and not the entirety of all firearms in existence" is in Mulvihill's little note at the beginning of the Canon Companion. |
True. You can probably just use the same stats, but give it a different name, and maybe slightly different accessories.
Note that the stats for pre-made drones in R3R list names of similar drones on the market. there is no reason why you couldn't do the same for guns.
Heck, the number of .45 colt variations and ripoffs is now beyond count.
I'm glad they finally backed up the talk in Rigger 3; shame there hasn't been any effort to go back and add in some brief lines in the CC for each gun.
| QUOTE (FlakJacket) | ||||
*Hands Ray a lollipop* |
Thanks, man. *holds out fist, with lollipop* Keep it real.
Speaking of AK's and keeping it real... New toy.
Mmmm low quality (yet dead reliable) boom boom. Good stuff.
Zastava is reputed to make pretty good stuff, actually. Anyway, an AK in 7.62x51mm has always seemed like a good idea to me.
| QUOTE (Raygun) |
| Speaking of AK's and keeping it real... New toy. |
Yo, you forgot the double recoil mods.
Oh yeah! That would be good, wouldn't it?
Thanks.
Thanks.
What? No! Now I can't go around strafe jumping and firing from the hip and still magically headshotting everyone! 
eh? i thought the double recoil mods only applied to heavy weapons and shotguns.
Nato 7.62 round = bigass rifle cartridge.
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