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I have decided to muck with enchanting for the first time, but wasn't real happy with the long periods of time I would be tied down in the various alchemical processes that can take a lunar month with no break times. I noticed that ally spirits can be created with enchanting skill up to the creators skill, so I immediately made plans to make an Igorish ally to take over some of the long-period drek. With the ability to materialize or travel the astral this would make the ally ideal for enchanting, as it could either slave away in the enchanting shop on alchemical endeavors without needing to sleep, or travel astrally to any location in the world to gather raw materials with talismongering and a Fed-exed enchanting kit waiting for it. With the right contacts and bribes it should have access to some good harvesting zones. It would never try to steal the hard earned orichalcum, and wouldn't need to be payed either. The loss of a magic point was going to hurt, but I decided the trade-off was worth it so I could continue to run the shadows when jobs came up. Then I remembered the familiar ordeal and rejoiced at the fact I wouldn't lose magic. Now for my question:

I am in an initiate group and about to go for 2nd grade. This is normally (5+2) x1.5 = 10 karma.
In the description for the famailiar ordeal it states that the minimum cost for the familiar is the cost for the initiation. So is it saying that the initiation cost is the familiar cost, or that it is the initiation cost (10) + the familiar cost (currently 12)? It will only be force 1 with enchanting 6(6 karma), talismongering 6(3 karma), and metalurgy 6(3 karma). I know, pretty damned weak and fairly exposed when gathering raw materials in awakened wild-lands, but I don't plan to send it out until I have invoking to send a GF spirit to stand watch while it works, meanwhile it can refine and radicalize stuff for me.

Anyhow, any insight on the initiation cost would be great.
Herald of Verjigorm
First, talismongering is the mundane attempt at enchanting. Enchanting covers everything talismongering can do, so there is no need for that as another skill.
The general reading is that no matter how weak you make the familiar, it's cost will be at least equal to the rest of the initiation. So 8 karma would be bumped up to 10, but 12 will still be 12.
Some GMs will decree that you only pay the higher of the two costs, but that is usually just in games where the GM wants someone to have an ally spirit and no one does yet.
You sure about that? I'm almost positive that Talismongering covers the actual obtaining of the raw materials, whilst Enchanting is the process itself (much like mining and metalworking are two distinct skills).

I was under that impression myself K. Regardless, thanks for the insight on the cost.
Herald of Verjigorm
Hmm... usually a background skill is unneccessary when the active skill is present, but the text does say
...used by both enchanters and mundanes.
By the reading that enchanting doesn't inherently include the material gathering, it would be a +2 default to use enchanting for that purpose. With that, I see more benefit to skimping on talismongering and trying to get to force 3 (so the TNs against it aren't 2) if possible, but you may not have enough spare karma.
Also there's a little comment somewhere about an active skill including the relevant background skill at... either half level or level -3, I think half. So if you decide to use that (hoping it isn't a house rule or 2nd edition holdover) you will have a talismongering of 3 from the 6 enchanting.
It's level -3, which of course, works out the same with a skill of 6. wink.gif
Herald of Verjigorm
OK, skill -3. For some reason in my games it's only come up in relation to skills at 6, no one cared about the background for their skills at 4 or 5, just the ones they maxed out at chargen.
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