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Siege
The thought occurs to me that a ballistic computer that is hardwired to a person's body should be able to calculate expected recoil, allowing for the gun modifications and the person's general strength.

If the smartlink does calculate for these numbers, might it also offer an additional bonus for hitting a target in BF or FA modes since the weapon is adjusting for the recoil in calculating the shot(s)?

A far more technical idea than "aim low because recoil climbs up" but in essence, the same concept.

-Siege
GunnerJ
I made a custom piece of cyberware, Smartlink 3, for this. Provides the normal Smartlink bonus, and 2 RC.
hyzmarca
The sword-link. Instead of calculating bullet trajectory, the sword-link processor examines real-time images of one's melee opponets for vulnerabilities and tells. It places a red dot ofer the most vulnerable point of their bodies and, in an image link window, places a blue dot over the point where they are most likely to try to hit you.
This reduces all melee target numbers by 2 but is much more eats more essence than a smartlink.
Teulisch
i think a 'recoil' smartlink should double the recoil reduction of cyberarm strength only.make it a 1 ECU item that is put into the arm.
Arethusa
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
The sword-link. Instead of calculating bullet trajectory, the sword-link processor examines real-time images of one's melee opponets for vulnerabilities and tells. It places a red dot ofer the most vulnerable point of their bodies and, in an image link window, places a blue dot over the point where they are most likely to try to hit you.
This reduces all melee target numbers by 2 but is much more eats more essence than a smartlink.

Great. Because adepts don't already break the game.

Anyway, I don't mind the idea, but I've always been a fan of a cybenetic aiming system linking with cybernetic bodyparts to control muscle movements in order to compensate for recoil. eg your arms tends momentarily during firing to compensate, greatly reducing recoil. It's not suited to the cyberware phobic paradigm of SR, though.
Fortune
Flesh out SmartBall technology.
mfb
i don't think any cyberware that reduces melee TNs by any amount is a bad, bad idea. for one thing, the kind of calculation you're talking about would require a dedicated S-K; there are way, way too many variables to take into account. for another, changing melee TNs has a huge, huge effect on the outcome--enough to send the melee rules spinning wildly out of control, if you're not careful.
Arethusa
And it's not like things are exactly in control, at the moment, no matter how careful you are.
Crimsondude 2.0
Yeah, but no other single piece of tech allows for this:

A starting physad swinging away at someone with a katana while rolling a maximum of 21 (22 if he also has enhanced articulation) dice at a TN of 2. If he surprises them, then no CP.

Although Rp'ing the result would be cool:

"You get 20 successes. He rolls *laughs* 6. You have 14 successes, and have managed to cleave the poor bastard into a million pieces."

Bad enough you could do it with guns already. Twice, sort of (depending on pool allocation).
Siege
What's your spin on Smartball tech, Fortune?

As far as I know, it's never been given numbers beyond a brief mention in the media sourcebook.

-Siege
Crimsondude 2.0
Everything Smarlinks have, including the interface. The ball would have to be conductive all over (more important for football), but it's not like the ball's going to shift surfaces and move much. It's more like a method in which the (to use football, again) QB targets his receiver while the cyber aids in the targetting, taking into account factors such as what direction he's moving in, how fast, how far away the receiver is, and what position the ball is in to give it that cool, tight spiral you really want when you're sending the ball 80 yards down field.
Siege
Great - just the gadget for those grenade happy runners.

-Siege
Fortune
Yeah, it was only mentioned in Shadowbeat in reference to Basketball. I don't see any reason it couldn't be adapted to non-sporting use.
mfb
my assumption would be that it requires a special, very expensive ball which can inform the smartlink of the ball's dimensions and weight, so that the smartlink processor has something to work with. using it with grenades would require a similar, and similary expensive, modification to each grenade.
Fortune
Of course there would need to be some kind of modification, but I don't think it should be prohibitively expensive.
mfb
well, there should be some reason why smartballed grenades aren't common. maybe the price just came down, or something, making them more common as of 2064 or so, but they weren't common during the '50s and early '60s.
Siege
Sure there's a reason - because the writers didn't see fit to add numbers for it.

C'mon - I'd hate to think the plausibility of SR gear is limited to what is and isn't posted in canon.

But if you can improve your accuracy with a grenade and some fool insists on carrying them, I'd expect a lot of teams to invest something that could improve thrown weapons accuracy.

Grenades, daggers, cue balls...wait...this sounds suspiciously like missile mastery. grinbig.gif

-Siege
Fortune
I thought about daggers, but the usual technique for throwing them (blade between fingers) kind of precludes any connection with a Smartlink.

I also thought about baseball pitchers, but the same problem arises.
Siege
The concept still holds true - the dagger or baseball has a fairly consistent weight and shape.

The targeting aspect of the "smartball" would have to include targeting devices normally mounted on a gun, but the limited sim rig should still provide a benefit for users to "synch" with a device.

Instead of trying to adjust a shooter's grip or gun position, the information would feed the same subconscious information to the thrower as the shooter.

-Siege

Edit: The smartball wouldn't be nearly as effective or as efficient as a smartgun, although it should be able to function independently of the device itself.

For that matter, this concept could be extended to handguns (all Sig P220's conform to these basic statistics, etc.), but again - it wouldn't be nearly as precise as a weapon-mounted targeting system.
Crimsondude 2.0
Actually, this is why it'd be best limited to stadium sports--the ball would have a GPS receiver in it so that it "knew" where it was relative to the hoop/ goal/ strike zone. It'd be a little more difficult for football, since it'd work best knowing where all of the the receivers were as opposed to 1 or 2 static points.
Siege
Which still doesn't preclude it from grenades - you've just created an impromptu airburst grenade from a handheld unit.

The GPS system can also be used as an impromptu detonation system - when grenade travels x meters from thrower, detonate.

-Siege
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0)
Yeah, but no other single piece of tech allows for this:

A starting physad swinging away at someone with a katana while rolling a maximum of 21 (22 if he also has enhanced articulation) dice at a TN of 2. If he surprises them, then no CP.

Although Rp'ing the result would be cool:

"You get 20 successes. He rolls *laughs* 6. You have 14 successes, and have managed to cleave the poor bastard into a million pieces."

Bad enough you could do it with guns already. Twice, sort of (depending on pool allocation).

But... it worked so well in Flying Dragon frown.gif .

mfb
i really don't see a universal smartball link as being feasible at all. even with a gun, you have to wire every part and piece of the weapon in order for it to operate smarlinked. with throwing, you've got no plausible way for the smartball processor to know what you're throwing, what you're aiming at, how you throw, or anything. what data, exactly, is the smartball processor supposed to be processing?
hyzmarca
QUOTE (mfb @ Dec 20 2004, 11:59 PM)
i really don't see a universal smartball link as being feasible at all. even with a gun, you have to wire every part and piece of the weapon in order for it to operate smarlinked. with throwing, you've got no plausible way for the smartball processor to know what you're throwing, what you're aiming at, how you throw, or anything. what data, exactly, is the smartball processor supposed to be processing?

Body position and movement, probably. It would really tax the limited simsense rig and require a very powerful processor, but it is doable. A rage rinder is a definate requirement, as well. The smartball processor would give you on-the-fly data regarding throwing angle and force. Basicly, the dot would appear at the place where the ball will do if you release at that instant. It would have to be specificly programed for the object to be thrown but wouldn't require a special smartlink rig on the ball. It would just require that the objects to be thrown are uniform in weight and volume.
You could get a SB processor for grenades, but it would be useless if you bought a different brand or type of grenade, untill you get it recalibrated.
lorthazar
My understanding of the Smartball systems is that it was a dedicated computer processer, skillwire, limited simsense rig with sensors on the body of the player. Since 99% of all league approved equipment would have the same mass and aerodynamics the need for a sensors suite on the ball is unneccesary. After it is not like firearms where each different model can have vastly different ballistic profiles.

Thistledown
A player of mine once had a customized smartlink made so that he could do holsters simliar to thos in Equilibrium. No, he wasn't dong the kata's and stuff, but having the gun's smartlink hooked into the holster allowed it to insert the clip quickly when ammo got low.
mfb
that's lunacy, hyzmarca. for one, there's no way a limited simsense rig could handle that level of calculation--the most it can handle is stuff like making your hand feel cooler as your clip gets emptier. body position and the rest would require a limited simrig, and simrigs are essence-unfriendly as all hell. for two, you'd need incredibly jacked-up reflexes in order to take advantage of a red dot showing where the ball will go if you release it at any given moment. a throw--a shot, a pass, a dribble--is not something you have time to think about and ponder. if you're lucky, you've got a second or two to think about what you want to do and prepapare; most of the time, you just make a snap reaction and hope it's the right one.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (mfb)
that's lunacy, hyzmarca. for one, there's no way a limited simsense rig could handle that level of calculation--the most it can handle is stuff like making your hand feel cooler as your clip gets emptier. body position and the rest would require a limited simrig, and simrigs are essence-unfriendly as all hell. for two, you'd need incredibly jacked-up reflexes in order to take advantage of a red dot showing where the ball will go if you release it at any given moment. a throw--a shot, a pass, a dribble--is not something you have time to think about and ponder. if you're lucky, you've got a second or two to think about what you want to do and prepapare; most of the time, you just make a snap reaction and hope it's the right one.

Well, I'm not the one who invented such the arbitrary, off-the-wall device and neglected to provide into information about how it works.
Of course, it may indeed by a full simrig. Its not like those mundane basketball players are using their essence for anything else.
Clyde
QUOTE
Its not like those mundane basketball players are using their essence for anything else.


Hydraulic jacks in their cyberlegs?? smile.gif

How about a smartlink that let's you use two guns at once. Corp security isn't going to let me out of the building with their prototype (and their boss) because I throw a ball at them . . .

I get the feeling a smartlink for throwing things would work more like reflex recorder technology. . . however

The reason you get a bonus from a smartlink is that it shows you exactly where you are aiming and thus where the bullet will strike if you decide to fire at that moment (no need to pull a trigger with a smartgun).

A smartball would have to judge the trajectory by mass and the angle and velocity of your throw. All things it could pick up from a limited simrig. The catch is that it can't really tell the wind resistance you're picking up. A smartgun presumably has the specific muzzle velocity and drop programmed right in. For sports, it'd be easy to "default" the smartball system. No reason to believe it'd be much tougher than grenades.

So . . .
You cock your arm back and the crosshair starts blinking red at the bottom of your vision. As you whip forward for the throw the crosshair elevates and tracks dynamically along the predicted path of your "shot." You just let the ball go when the little X is on the basket. Shouldn't be impossible. Might not be worth a -2, though.
lorthazar
QUOTE (mfb)
that's lunacy, hyzmarca. for one, there's no way a limited simsense rig could handle that level of calculation--the most it can handle is stuff like making your hand feel cooler as your clip gets emptier. body position and the rest would require a limited simrig, and simrigs are essence-unfriendly as all hell. for two, you'd need incredibly jacked-up reflexes in order to take advantage of a red dot showing where the ball will go if you release it at any given moment. a throw--a shot, a pass, a dribble--is not something you have time to think about and ponder. if you're lucky, you've got a second or two to think about what you want to do and prepapare; most of the time, you just make a snap reaction and hope it's the right one.

Odd that you are making a judgement call for a device that does not even exist yet. You'd be surprised how much we could do today if we really put our minds to it. it would not he out ot the realm of possibility to build a suit with special motion and pressure sensors, a dedicated computer and a optical display that woul duplicate the SmartBlall system as I and hyzmarca had detailed them. And it would be real time. Sure the player would be clumsy at first but as he worked with the system he would see a marked improvement.

Fortune
I figure if the Smartlink can figure trajectory for a Bow (and it can according to canon), then there should be no real problems with this type of modification.
mfb
i'm making a judgement call on not-yet-invented technology whose workings have been partly explained. according to what has been explained, hyzmarca's theory of the smartball system's basic workings isn't feasible. we don't have magic, either, but if someone told you that you can use stunball spells to take out cars, you'd probably disagree with them.

a bow is much, much different from throwing stuff. just like with a gun, a smartlink on a bow can take simple measurements and project a point of impact for the projectile in time for it to do the shooter some good. a smartlink on a bow will measure the bow's angle, curvature, and line tension, and be able to project a point of impact based on that. a smartball can do none of these things without a very essence-expensive simrig, and projecting the point of impact for the user will be next to useless.

i think that a smartball is going to have to be a lot more proactive. for one, the smartlink will have to be either sport-specific (with ball measurements programmed into the cyberware), or the ball will have to have a skin over it that links up with the pads in the player's palm and fingers (so that the player can draw data from a chip in the ball itself). either way, the smartlink will be programmed with specific physiological data about the implantee--namely, height, arm length, and arm strength. the smartlink 'cursor' will have to have DNI control, so that you can move it around.

that way, the player can move the cursor around and see where the ball will go, if he throws it to the cursor's current position. the smartball will display a 'bounce path' for him, probably assuming a flat playing surface, and taking into account the user's physiological data (eg, how hard he can throw it, how his arms will probably move given their length and current position, etcetera).

if someone's got a better explanation that fits what is known about smartlink technology, speak up.
Siege
There have been a number of theories presented on what each part of the smartlink system does and there has yet to be a canon listing.

Limited simrig could be anything from a few kb of information to full sensory information from only the arm/gun and so on.

The smartball concept doesn't work for Mfb's view of smartlink technology - ok, got it.

But permit me to point out that a smart-equipped handgun isn't wired from end-to-end, otherwise a smartgun adapter would be equally impractical if not downright improbable.

-Siege

Edit: However, it seems equally reasonable that a chipped dbase of selected weapons and their ballistic profiles could negate the need for a smart-linked weapon and instead keep all the information in-house, so to speak.
lodestar
Going with the smart ball idea, who says the projectile itself has to have anything aside from maybe a contant weight. In terms of throwing objects that were standardized - say knives, darts or baseballs - could a cyberarm itself be linked with a "smart system" where the user only has to think what type of projectile he has and the arm itself goes through the specific motion needed to hit the projected reticle. Much sort of like some automated pitching devices (of course on a much more complex scale) Sort of like maybe a specialized skillwire setup where one could plug in a chip for the particular projectile thrown. The disadvantage to such a system would of course being losing temporary control of your arm - unbalancing if say tried on the run - but a definite advantage if say used from a specific stance.
mfb
a smart-equipped handgun is wired from end to end. that's why you can do things like fire it without physically pulling the trigger, eject clips without moving a muscle, etcetera. the difference is, a handgun is simple: it performs about four functions, max, and all of them are relatively simple.

i also disagree that this is based purely on "my view" of how smartlinks work. i'm going off of what has been written about smartlinks, basing my conclusions on the facts that are known. i'm also basing it on the fact that smartball technology, if it were universally applicable to any item you picked up, would be too useful to not bet statted. the fact that smartball technology is only ever mentioned in conjunction with sports speaks pretty strongly for the idea that it is not universally applicable. i mean, come on--if there were a piece of cyberware out there that could give -2 TN to all thrown objects, from grenades to footballs to knives to basketballs to soda bottles, wouldn't somebody have mentioned how handy it is to have, somewhere in all the shadowtalk about all the cyberware out there?

cyberware that moves your arm is more a function of skillwires.
Siege
Do you subscribe to the notion that before Street Samurai was published, the only assault rifles around were the AK-97 and the FN-HAR?

-Siege
mfb
not a legitimate comparison. there's only one smartball link; there are thousands of varieties of assault rifle. a more apt comparison would be laser weapons. no, i don't believe that there were laser weapons available for purchase before they were listed in the books.
Siege
Not mentioned in canon.

You assume a multitude existed previous to and during the SR release, but there was never a color blurb discussing any other weapon or assault rifle type beyond those of the core book.

However, one mention of the smartball link briefly in a canon supplement - but enough to confirm it does exist which allows us to speculate wantonly as to the how it might work and that other forms of the device might exist.

Unless, of course, you believe all smartlinks are produced by the same company, to the exact same spec and are a universal piece of 'ware, proudly bearing the ACME seal of quality.

That does not preclude the existence of other forms of the technology that didn't make it into the books. I'm going out on a limb to say a lot of things don't make it into the sourcebooks that one could find on a daily basis.

It does not seem unreasonable to believe that the world of 2060 has more to it than has been listed in the sourcebooks.

As to your notion of how a smartlink works, I'll have to peruse my books when I get home - I seem to recall the removal of a trigger being a CP-ism and not mentioned in SR canon.

-Siege
Rev
I have a vague recollection that shadowbeat mentioned (but omitted stats for) a smartball cyberware system for sports.

I am pretty sure that "trigger removal" is an optional modification in cannon companion. By default all guns can be mechanically triggered (lamely even implanted cyberguns), removing the trigger is an additional option on top of smartlinking, like removing manual controls from a vehicle used to be another option in addition to rigging it.

Edit: heh duh, somehow I thought I had read most of this thread, when in fact I had read almost none of it smile.gif
Siege
Yep - hence the exchange now.

-Siege
mfb
siege, gimme a break. you can't compare the existence of specific models of assault rifles with the existence of a piece of widely-applicable cyberware. yes, there's cyberware out there that hasn't made it into a canon book, yet--but it's going to be minor pieces of specialty 'ware, not something that gives a -2 modifier to all thrown TNs. the idea that it just somehow 'slipped through the cracks' is ridiculous. everyone would have it; it'd be almost as common as smartlinks.
Siege
Actually, I can - primarily because you are making the assumption that because it hasn't appeared in canon repeatedly, it cannot exist or must be so impractical as not to have made it to the shadows.

If we are willing to assume that other things have existed previously without it being expressly spelled out in canon, I see no point in limiting things that have been mentioned in canon as existing, if not particularly well described.

You can apply that argument to just about every bit of cyberware that has rolled out since the 1st edition - some of it is indeed new market releases, but the instant datajacks became common and smartlinks weren't cutting edge tech, a massive can of worms opened up as to what could be developed.

Humanity will tinker, poke and prod almost anything until it goes boom or turns pretty colors (and then explodes).

I am perfectly willing to concede that smartball tech could be impractical, but so are synthlinks and sim rigs and they still show up in source books, even if I can't recall a player ever actually buying either.

But I am also willing to concede that the writers are limited to the space available to them in books and can't include everything they might like to or are capable of imagining every possible nuance of tech, gear and gadgetry that will manifest in the next 56 years.

-Siege
mfb
no, you can't. not and have a viable, logical argument. one can logically assume that there are more than two types of assault rifle in a setting as violent as SR, because widespread violence encourages the growth of the weapons industry. one cannot logically assume that because smartball technology is mentioned exactly twice in all of SR canon, and only in conjunction with sports, that it is a piece of cyberware with a wide array of applications outside of certain specific sports, or that people outside of sports commonly have it implanted. there is no logic in that assumption. there is no sanity in that assumption. seriously, man, any 9th-grade debate student could shred that argument with both hands tied behind her back.
Fortune
Maybe the SmartBall doesn't grant a universal -2 to TN, but instead grants -1 and decreases scatter by 1d6 and allows the grenade's timing to be adjusted via the Link.
mfb
that's still really, really useful. i just don't buy the idea that there's some piece of incredibly useful 'ware out that that almost every combat-oriented character will want, that the designers just forgot to give stats.

look, if you want to say that the Smartball-2 just came out, and it works okay with just about anything you can pick up and throw, with a cost of 0.75 essence? that's great. i can buy that. i'll even suggest some rules: -2 TN for regulation balls (football, basketball, baseball, rugby, and so on), -1 TN for everything else, -1d6 scatter for any thrown object. called shot modifier reduced to +2 TN if the object being thrown is smartball-linked.

what i can't buy is that this piece of 'ware has existed all along.
Botch
'40s - Longrange ballistic missles managed to hit targets in other countries steered by clockwork.
'60s - Rockets have been successfully guided to the moon with less processing power than a mobile phone.
'90s - Area 51 arcade game is highly enjoyable when one player uses both guns simultaenously.

But,

A expensive dedicated SPU with the benefit of 60 years development cannot process the simple ballistic data for two guns simultaenously.

Dedicated tech to weigh the smartball and determine the centre of mass? It called an arm, you should be familiar with the concept of ascertaining the weight of an object by picking it up. The only difference between a bow, a gun and a smartball system is the firing mechanism. All the projectiles are effected in the same way by gravity, spin, wind resistance, relative vectors and elevation, just to difference amounts. The same calculations are used whether it is shot, released, or thrown and they are not complex calculations either.
Siege
It all depends on what assumptions you want to make - I've made my case and you can stick with yours.

As for the 9th grader with her hands tied behind her back - whatever floats your boat.

-Siege
Siege
*deleted for duplicate post*

-Siege
mfb
botch, that's crazy-talk. guns and bows do the same thing, every time. all you have to do to predict where a bullet or arrow will go is figure out a simple ballistic arc, based on data that almost never changes. an arm, on the other hand, doesn't do the same thing every time even if you're a highly-trained professional with years of experience. that's why even pro baseball pitchers occasionally throw a ball, why NFL quarterbacks don't always get the ball to their man, and why even Michael Jordan and Larry Bird missed shots. no computer can calculate an accurate trajectory arc based on an arm's current position, because there are a million things an arm might do in between the current moment and the time of the throw.

yes, all projectiles are affected in the same way by gravity, spin, etcetera--but not all projectiles are fired the same way, when their motive force is an arm. your assumption is faulty, and you've reached a faulty conclusion.

siege, same for you. a=x does not mean x=y. the fact that gear exists in SR that hasn't been statted yet isn't carte blanche to just make up whatever 'ware you want, and claim that logic and the setting back you up.
mfb
huh, dupe post. siege, did your duplicate come after you got an error?
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