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Deamon_Knight
Hey, I was wondering, does anyone else think there should be a relationship between high initiative scores and melee combat? Seems like a chromed Street Sam bouncing off the walls with Initiative should get some kind of bonus in melee combat from simply moving faster than his opponent. **Ignores all other odd results from melee combat and initiative**

How a "difference between combatants initiative" / 10, (round down), bonus to effective reach?

So the Street Sam with initiative of 24 swings his spurs at the mage with initiative 9.
24-9= 15 /10 = 1.5, rounding down to 1, giving that Sam an Effective +1 reach.

Might give that Troll with the Poleax a run for his nuyen instead of revamping the whole thing.

Any thoughts??
BitBasher
he alread does. he wins ties, and he gets a lot more attacks. He has a lot more strategic options since he has a lot more attacks too. If he's a freaking retard and keeps swinging on someone better than him he deserves what he gets. That's darwin in action.

That being said, search the forums, this has been done to death in the past, many long drawn out previous topics.
Fortune
I disallow counterattacks when the slower character has no initiative passes left, instead only allowing them the Full Defence option when attacked. This gives the speed demon enough of an edge without screwing with TNs and disadvantaging the defender too much.
Wounded Ronin
I really love martial arts sports. When I was an undergrad I played judo at the judo club for 4 years. Right now I'm practicing international rules kickboxing.

I wouldn't consider myself to be very good at either of those sports but I did/do enjoy them a lot. I really enjoyed wrestling with people and fighting for throws, and so far I'm really enjoying the kickboxing style standup sparring even though I'm pretty much a n00b at that particular sport.

And it's amply clear to me that the melee combat rules in Shadowrun are completely strange and inaccurate and bizarre. You don't have to be an expert to realize this; it's almost common sense. The way that things are represented statistically in the SR system just don't seem to resemble what I've seen and experienced in the context of these sports. The only thing that really even mentally works for me in the abstract is the non-advanced basic opposed test for melee combat without any of the options or special manuvers.

So, like, at this point I don't care that there's armloads of things that really just don't make sense with the melee combat in SR. I just take it for what it is...a potentially munchkinous way for your PC to give boxes of damage to NPCs.

I have some time off right now, so maybe I'll sit down and try to write up something that makes more sense. Hmm...
DrJest
I added a very simple house rule to melee combat which seems to do the trick. You can defend at your normal TN, or attempt a counterattack at TN+2. Then I added a Riposte ability to the Martial Arts lists that allowed a counterattack at TN+1.

I like the idea of not allowing counterattacks if you're out of Initiative for the round, I might add that as well.
elbows
As a long-time martial artist and fencer, I think the melee/counterattack rules are pretty good.

First, even a slow person can throw a couple of punches a second. A trained character can be much faster, so I see no reason to disallow counterattacks based on initiative scores.

Beyond that, speed is much less important than timing and placement of attacks. If your attacks are sloppy, they leave you open for a counterattack, and attacking more often is a good way to get hit more often.

High initiative already gives a character a big advantage (even in melee combat, as BitBasher pointed out), and I don't see any need to give more bonuses to highly wired characters.

As an obsessive house-ruler, I have to say that melee combat may be the _only_ part of canon that I have no desire to change wink.gif
GrinderTheTroll
QUOTE (elbows)
Beyond that, speed is much less important than timing and placement of attacks. If your attacks are sloppy, they leave you open for a counterattack, and attacking more often is a good way to get hit more often.

Excellent points! Timing is everything as well as solid knowledge of what you are trying to do. It amazes me to see just about every martial artist leave vital spots open, fail to use their non-attacking hands to cover themselves or over-committ, to name a few.

SR Melee Combat is interesting in that you could get Init=10 and face a Sam with a Init=35, but still get to roll your melee skill in defense each time he attacks you. Since there is no bonus for attacking, you are technically getting the same number of "attacks" as the Init=35 sam. The real difference comes down to skill (skill+pool) and who can soak damage better.

I personally don't like the advantage of the bonus reach the original poster suggested.
Fortune
The problem I have is that the slower character is average against an equivalently quick opponent, but suddenly acts like he's on speed when fighting a wired dude. This is why I added my (stolen) Full Defence only modification.
Moon-Hawk
But remember, Elbows, you're comparing a fast unmodified human with a slow unmodified human. I don't think anyone has issues with the number of counterattacks allowed when you've got two people moving a human speeds. Heavily cybered humans aren't really in the same league.
I'm kind of surprised that with a fencing background you don't think having ultra-uber-superhuman reflexes would be more helpful.
None of this invalidates your points; I'm not saying you're wrong, but remember that when it comes to cyberware and initiative scores of 46, real-life can't offer much of a basis for comparison.

Personally, rather than trying to imagine what it would be like if I had super-reflexes, I try to imagine what it would be like to have the same reflexes that I have but compare it to someone with super slow reflexes. So rather than trying to imagine me with wired reflexes (which I can't) fighting a kung-fu dude without, I try to think of what it would be like for me (I have more combat training than most, but far from bad-ass) fighting a kung-fu dude who has suffered some sort of stroke that that leaves him fully functional, but with the reation/reflex abilities of a cactus. I think I'd stand a pretty good chance. His moves would still be a hell of a lot better than mine, but if I managed to evade anything his lack of reflexes would leave him open, and he couldn't possibly react well to a feint, so I think it would do an awful lot to even the odds.

Compare that to the SR case, where admittedly someone faster does have a bit of an advantage, since ties do go to the attacker, but if the slow person has more than 2 skill points in their favor, they'll win anyway. This is the oft-cited case that usually gets people riled up.

So what do we do? Well, sometimes people suggest TN changes, but I feel that those are too drastic. One thing someone mentioned once was that for every +1d6 gained (for whatever reason) you get an extra die for melee attacks. Sound too powerful? Make it a "reflex pool" of that many dice, that can only be used for melee.

If your group is having problems with old kung-fu masta's contantly owning your super-1337 MBW-ninjas, there are a number of things that you can do to give speed a touch more of an edge without utterly unbalancing combat. But it's only really an issue when you have such a grossly mismatched case of speed, and more than a point of two disparity in the skills. The above is my suggestion if you feel the need to change it; but I won't be so bold as to say that it should be changed.
elbows
QUOTE (Fortune)
The problem I have is that the slower character is average against an equivalently quick opponent, but suddenly acts like he's on speed when fighting a wired dude. This is why I added my (stolen) Full Defence only modification.


The way I see it, if a normal person only throws one punch in three seconds, its because he spends most of that time looking for an opening -- not because he can't punch any faster.
If he's suddenly faced with a super-fast (but unskilled) samurai who's flailing all over the place, he'll start punching more often because his opponent is giving him lots of openings.
elbows
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)

I'm kind of surprised that with a fencing background you don't think having ultra-uber-superhuman reflexes would be more helpful.


Well, I'm actually kind of slow, as fencers go, but I've beaten the stuffing out of lots of fast people because they were sloppy. And I'm not a particularly great fencer.

Having good reflexes (being able to react quickly to an attack and changes directions quickly) does help a lot in any sort of combat, and you could argue that Wired Reflexes should help you with a lot of things (like dodging, driving, melee combat, etc).

But as the rules stand, they _only_ affect initiative. In fact, based on game mechanics it doesn't seem that wired reflexes have anything to do with reflexes -- they just make you fast. So I don't think it makes sense for wired to give a bonus to melee combat without also adding to all those other things that would logically be easier if you had really quick reactions.
GrinderTheTroll
QUOTE (elbows)
QUOTE (Fortune)
The problem I have is that the slower character is average against an equivalently quick opponent, but suddenly acts like he's on speed when fighting a wired dude. This is why I added my (stolen) Full Defence only modification.


The way I see it, if a normal person only throws one punch in three seconds, its because he spends most of that time looking for an opening -- not because he can't punch any faster.
If he's suddenly faced with a super-fast (but unskilled) samurai who's flailing all over the place, he'll start punching more often because his opponent is giving him lots of openings.

If you applied some of the techniques from SR Martial Arts to this scenario more specifically Hearding, you could easily see how a high Init melee person could make a slower opponent do what they wanted, which is part of what good martial artist do when facing opponents.
Mensche
initiative only determines who acts first.

therefore, if someone really skilled and fast decides to act first on someone "slower" (merely indicated by a lower initiative roll), that "faster" person has to choose wether to attack or not. if they do attack, the slower person still has the ability to react to whats happening.

thats what it all boils down too. Initiative just decides who goes first , not who's more skilled or "faster". the person with lower INIT may outroll the higher INIT in actual combat, making the "slower" character a better fighter.
iPad
I have no problem with the way the basic combat out of the rule book works.

Having done larp type fighting I have found that as the others say timing is more important than speed. Everytime you strike you leave yourself open to an attack. Besides during the three seconds of real combat I find just as often both fighters dont try and strike each other, sped up it just means ones throwing a few more swings.
iPad
double post.
Fortune
QUOTE (elbows)
The way I see it, if a normal person only throws one punch in three seconds, its because he spends most of that time looking for an opening -- not because he can't punch any faster.
If he's suddenly faced with a super-fast (but unskilled) samurai who's flailing all over the place, he'll start punching more often because his opponent is giving him lots of openings.

Skill beats speed hands down. Even with my rules (listed above) a skilled slow character will (usually) beat a non-skilled speed freak. He just ends up blocking all of the speedster's extra attacks and stomps him on his initiative.

Given opponents of equal skill but unequal speed though, there is no reason (in my mind) why the non-wired guy gets extra attacks just because his opponent is quicker.

TN and dice penalties or bonuses are too drastic, in my opinion, which is why I opted for the rule adaption I now use. It doesn't give either opponent any skill bonus, but merely reflects extra attacks which can still be blocked with a combattant's full skill.
BitBasher
QUOTE
Skill beats speed hands down. Even with my rules (listed above) a skilled slow character will (usually) beat a non-skilled speed freak. He just ends up blocking all of the speedster's extra attacks and stomps him on his initiative.
You know the problem with this is that done right in a large number of martial arts the block itself causes damage just like an offensive attack.
Fortune
QUOTE (BitBasher)
You know the problem with this is that done right in a large number of martial arts the block itself causes damage just like an offensive attack.

Which can be reflected in the first or second pass when the (slower) defending character still has actions left. In my rules, the Full Defence requirement doesn't kick in until the slower character uses up all his actual actions for that turn. Until then, Melee Combat works as normal.
draco aardvark
QUOTE
Which can be reflected in the first or second pass when the (slower) defending character still has actions left. In my rules, the Full Defence requirement doesn't kick in until the slower character uses up all his actual actions for that turn. Until then, Melee Combat works as normal.

so after he's used up his actions, he starts blocking ineffectively?
Fortune
No, he blocks quite effectively at any time. He attacks normally, and just doesn't do more offensive blocks than he has actions.

It beats the slowpoke suddenly becoming just as quick as the fastest wired Sammy just because he faces someone faster.

I'm not trying to convert anyone here ... I don't care what you do in your games. In my games this works extremely well, and I have never had one complaint about it. In fact, most of my players really like the rule ... even the non-wired ones.
Moon-Hawk
Like I said, I've never actually used the method I suggested above; it was a suggestion for people who want more of an edge based on speed.
The variant I actually use is very similar to fortune's. I didn't mention it, though, since I was beaten to it.
I've used that variant for years and it's worked well. No melee person has felt nerfed, and high speed just means more chances to do damage.
Moon-Hawk
Double post.
GrinderTheTroll
QUOTE (BitBasher)
QUOTE
Skill beats speed hands down. Even with my rules (listed above) a skilled slow character will (usually) beat a non-skilled speed freak. He just ends up blocking all of the speedster's extra attacks and stomps him on his initiative.
You know the problem with this is that done right in a large number of martial arts the block itself causes damage just like an offensive attack.

Right.

The stuff I learned we where never taught to "just block a strike", everything is a offensive strike. You throw a punch, my intention is to block your arm with a strike. That and getting away from the "You throw a punch, I throw a punch" mentality and getting to where you land 2-3 for each of your opponents one blows is really where it's at.

This makes for very battered andn beaten opponents, but this is the part of SR3 melee that makes the most sence to me: You attack, I can attack back. Also makes you think twice about getting in someones face, cause you never know what they know.

As far as the "one punch in three seconds" thing, remember that SR melee combat has always been abstract, you aren't throwing one puch, but a series of attacks at your opponent.
BitBasher
Right, I guess I'll agree to disagree. I think the system works best the way it is listed in the book, NOT including the optional rules from the CC which I feel are all pretty much completely stupid. I have house rules for those that I feel are a bit more well balanced than those provided, and work a LOT better in playtesting.
GrinderTheTroll
I fell your pain BitBasher, but as much as I'd love to see a more realistic model of Melee Combat, I'd have to overhaul the whole damn thing. It's not bad, I'm sure we've all played worse.
Fortune
That's cool. As I said, I just hate the fact that a guy with no initiative boosts fights a similarly slow character one way, and then becomes god of speed when facing someone who spent a lot of nuyen or Power Points to actually have enhanced reflexes.

As it stands right now, if a character is built for melee, there is no real incentive to getting reaction boosting stuff. In my system, there is an incentive, although skill without speed still triumphs over speed without skill.
GrinderTheTroll
I really like the counter attack power or whatever its called that grants bonus dice for defending against melee attacks. You can quickly kick some serious but when you throw down 10+ dice without adding pool. That is one jacked up sam when you get done with him.
Cochise
QUOTE (Fortune)
As it stands right now, if a character is built for melee, there is no real incentive to getting reaction boosting stuff.

Pretty much depends on how you use the rules (including those BitBasher doesn't like *g*).
I can asure you that there actually are some incentives even for melee oriented characters to get reaction boosting. Have you ever tried to "disorient" an opponent? If not, you'll be surprised to learn that the disorientation ends after the next inititiative pass or the end of the combat turn. So in order to really profit from a disorientation, you actually need at least a second chance of attacking, because I have seen more than one opponent simply doing a "pass action" once he was successfully disoriented for the first time ... No second initiative pass for the melee character and the disorientation just vanishes into thin air ...

As for why trying to disorient in the first place?
Simple: Ever tried to take out characters with high bod and / or rather good impact armor? In those cases it just isn't enough to win the opposed melee test. You actually need a larger number of net successes in order to stage both damage and power level. Otherwise such opponents simply shrug off attacks with ease.
Successfully disorienting an opponent will make that possible in a subsequent attack ...

Side note: No, I do not consider strength values of 10+ to actually be the key value for being a "melee oriented" character ...
Cochise
*strange double post*
GrinderTheTroll
QUOTE (Cochise)
Side note: No, I do not consider strength values of 10+ to actually be the key value for being a "melee oriented" character ...

Considering what's involved with SR Melee combat, what do you consider a key value for a melee oriented char?

I would qualify them by a) High Skill or Skills, b) High Weapon power (9+) or c) some abilites that directly impact Melee (Reach bonus, PhysAd abilites, Magical Focus, etc.)
GrinderTheTroll
Blah. Double-posting goodness.
Cochise
QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll)
Considering what's involved with SR Melee combat, what do you consider a key value for a melee oriented char?


The "right" combination of elements wink.gif

Look at your own list:

a) High Skill or Skills,
b) High Weapon power (9+)
c) some abilites that directly impact Melee (Reach bonus, PhysAd abilites, Magical Focus, etc.)

You don't have to excel at all these points (and due to at least some limitations during chargen you most definitely can't anyway)

Now "a)" can be used to negate the lack of b), provided you (or better the character) know(s) what you (he/she) do (does).
"c)" is a whole group of things that can compensate for a lack of "a)" and "b)" ...
Taking "b)" reduces the necessity of having "a)". And the necessity for "c)" to a certain extend as well (some elements from that group won't be heavily depended on, while others simply come with the weapon itself)

For me it boils down to what you're actually aiming at. If you aim for a skilled fighter with finesse who doesn't rely on strength, it'll be a good piece of advise not to forget about at least some reaction enhencements in order to facilitate some of the options provided by the rules.
You want the generic Troll-Slayer with lot's of reach? Reaction won't be an issue to you. All you need is a high enough skill to still beat the shit out of someone trying to use the close combat maneuver on you ...
GrinderTheTroll
QUOTE (Cochise)
You don't have to excel at all these points (and due to at least some limitations during chargen you most definitely can't anyway)


Sure ya can. Get a Troll with Edged-6 and Muscle Aug.-4 (High Skill, 9+ power and +2 Reach). I consider that melee oriented.

QUOTE
For me it boils down to what you're actually aiming at. If you aim for a skilled fighter with finesse who doesn't rely on strength, it'll be a good piece of advise not to forget about at least some reaction enhencements in order to facilitate some of the options provided by the rules.

You've got to able to look at char and say "yes or no" that they are melee oriented, so what does it for you?
Cochise
QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll)
Sure ya can.  Get a Troll with Edged-6 and Muscle Aug.-4 (High Skill, 9+ power and +2 Reach).  I consider that melee oriented.


I'd only call that "basis for the generic Troll-Slayer". That most definitely does not excel in all fields (meeting your three criteria is not what I'd call "excel").
Only that he's pretty much lost against any character who get's the better of him with close combat maneuver and a higher skill or other tricks (like a mage only going in to "touch" and then casting a stun or death touch)

Now please, don't try to "improve" your setup, because that will only lead to one thing and that's a endless spiral of "improved" setups. But it's not the point of this argument to show or create "the" melee uber fighter ...

QUOTE
You've got to able to look at char and say "yes or no" that they are melee oriented, so what does it for you?


In most cases a high melee skill while having lower ranged skills is a good indication wink.gif
GrinderTheTroll
QUOTE (Cochise)
Now please, don't try to "improve" your setup, because that will only lead to one thing and that's a endless spiral of "improved" setups. But it's not the point of this argument to show or create "the" melee uber fighter ...

Omgz0rz a challenge!11!!1

I was just hoping to get an answer out of you silly which seems to be just a High (6+?) melee skill and low ranged skill.
Cochise
QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll)
Omgz0rz a challenge!11!!1


The only challange there is: Not to make one out of it wink.gif

QUOTE
I was just hoping to get an answer out of you silly which seems to be just a High (6+?) melee skill and low ranged skill.


Last time I checked my english skills that was close to an insult.
I'd suggest that you stop this, before it get's boring, o.k.?

And yes, if you want an answer about what I'd define "a melee oriented character", the answer will be close to what you've written there: Any character who is able to deal with opponents better in melee than with ranged weaponry. The important part being: It doesn't matter how the character achieves that in particular. That's why I don't consider strength as the primary trait. Nor would a consider fielding a melee weapon with high range necessarily as proof for a "melee oriented" character wink.gif
GrinderTheTroll
I was legitimately asking what you considered to be a "melee oriented character" and you are obviously taking my questions the wrong way or assuming I am trying to insult you in some way. That is not my intention.

I am just trying to crawl inside your head to get an idea of how you (or anyone else for that matter) views aspects of SR.
iPad
I guess a melee character is anyone who is on average better at hth than the rest of his/her group, or if they can throw 8+ non-pool dice into a fight.

I was recently thinking about how I would deal with combat if I wrote an rpg system, and I would actually get away from what alot of games have for melee fighting:

Roll initiative.
Go in order.
Roll to hit or miss.
repeat until something else happens.

SR at least considers it a squence of fighting. But I would like the idea of not having characters mechanically trying to hit each other every initiative pass. What I would like to see are parts of a fight engaging or disinengaging and players more finding oppotunities to hit than just being sword windmills. Kind of flurries of blows out in one bit of the combat, being resolved and move to another and not neccessarily fairly or evenly.
DrJest
On and off, I'm writing my own RPG. Combat in that is entirely manoeuvre based; you declare your actions in reverse intiative order, allowing the faster characters to respond to the world around them, then resolve them in initiative order. Combatants have a selection of manoeuvres to pick from, each of which offers a different bonus or penalty to their attack/defence based on their fighting style. I'm currently trying to figure a similar thing for firearms combat; someone who served in the military and has Firearms: Rifleman (the basic grunt gun skill) should do well with Suppress and Rapid Fire, but probably not so well with Snap Shot or Point Blank as a pistol-based Firearms: Gun Fu character.
Cochise
QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll)
I was legitimately asking what you considered to be a "melee oriented character" and you are obviously taking my questions the wrong way or assuming I am trying to insult you in some way.

The thing is that I already gave you an answer, but obviously that one didn't satisfy you ...
And the use of words like "silly" (as harmless as they might be intended) usually tends to get me a little upset.

But to show you why I said the "right" combination of elements I'll give you four characters. Each of them is IMHO "melee oriented" although certain persons will not accept them as being "good" at melee. But that's just because I'm too lazy to tweak them into uber fighters and I generally do see a difference between "melee oriented" and "ultimate melee fighting machines" (with a tendency of being one-trick ponies).
All of them are humans, for the sake of the demonstration. They are not fully fleshed out in all details, because that would be too much effort for no actual gain.
  • Character 1: The Tank-Slayer-Prototype

    body: 6[8]
    str: 9
    quick: 4

    Implants:
    - synthetic cybertorso with 5 points of impact armor (giving 1 point impact in general
    - ceramic bone lacing (2 points of impact armor)
    - muscle augmentation bioware lvl 3
    - enhanced articulation
    - reflex recorder (polearms(polearm))

    weapon: polearm (reach 2)
    skills:

    brawling 5
    polearms (polearm) 5(7)

    other gear:

    Rapid Transit Heavy Jumpsuit + Helm

    This guy rolls 9 dice before combat pool, has reach 2 and an impact armor value of 9. Base damage is 12S. This concept doesn't need any form of reaction enhancement. This character fits your bill of "melee oriented" perfectly.

  • Character 2: Ambidextrous-Prototype

    ambidex at lvl 4 (=8 points)
    body: 6[7]
    str: 6
    quick: 6

    Implants:
    -ceramic bone lacing

    weaponry:
    primary weapon : AZ-150 Stun Batton
    secondary weapon: Sai

    Skills:

    Escrima 4
    - close combat
    - close combat (clubs)

    Clubs 6
    other gear:
    - Rapid Transit Heavy Jumpsuit
    - Crimson Sky Leatherjacket

    This guy will also roll 9 dice before combat pool, 10 if he decides to disarm an opponent. He'll deal a base damage of 8S against halved impact armor. His impact armor rating is at 7. No real need for reaction enhancements here either. Doesn't really fit your bill of "melee oriented", but stands good chances to win a fight against char 1 who did fit your bill

  • Character 3: "Unarmed" specialist-Prototype

    Adept

    body: 5
    str: 6
    quick: 6

    Implants:
    - Reactionenhancer lvl 3
    - enhanced articulation

    skills:

    Brawling:
    - Disorient
    - Zoning
    - close combat

    Weapon:
    Hardliner Gloves

    Adept powers:

    improved ability (Brawling) 2[1]
    Inertia Strike [0.5]*
    Sixth Sense 2 [0.5]*
    Piercing Strike 2 [1.5]
    Mystic Armor 2 [1]
    Nerve Strike [1]**
    Counterstrike 1 [0.5]

    * Geased to offset magic loss .. condition: unharmed
    ** Gease to offset magic loss .. Talisman: his hardline gloves

    other gear:

    Rapid Transit Heavy Jumpsuit + Actioneer long coat + Forearm Guards

    This guy will also roll 9 dice in an attack befor combat pool. 10 in case of defense.
    Base Damage is 7M Stun. Impact Armor value is at 8. Only partially fits your bill for "melee oriented" (Although it's a full blown melee adept). This character will profit from reaction enhancement, since that gives him oppertunities to take advantage of the Disorient maneuver

  • Character 4: The "Touch"-Magic-Prototype

    Adept of the magician's Way

    body 3:
    str: 5
    quick: 4
    Will: 5

    Implants:
    None

    Powers:
    Magic Talent 2 [2]
    Improved Skill (Brawling) 2 [1]
    Sidestep 6 [3]

    Skills:

    Brawling 6
    - close combat

    Sorcery (spellcasting) 5(7)

    Spells:
    -Stun Touch 6

    Other gear:

    Rapid Transit Heavy Jumpsuit + Forearm Guards + Helm

    Will have 8 dice on his "touch" test (melee test with TN -1) while using the close combat maneuver to negate reach of opponents. In case of success he'll cast a 6M Stun Touch (2L physical drain should be an none-issue). In defense he'll always go into full defense (with close combat if necessary) and will make use of his sidestep power. Impact armor rating is ar 7. Doesn't necessarily profit from reaction enhancements. He also only partially fits your bill of "melee oriented" ...
Now where's the point, you may ask?

Simple:

Base line No. 1 was that melee characters under normal rules do not have the need of reaction enhancements. But at least the prototype Nr. 3 needs reaction enhancements or he'll have a hard time in ever dealing damage to prototypes 1 and 2 (he might constantly hit, but they'll soak it in most cases) unless he starts taking advantage of having more attacks in one combat turn by correctly using his manuevers.
My position (base line 2) was that I don't consider strength values (or weapon based damage code) in the double digit area to be key values for classifying a character as melee oriented.

Does that help you to "crawl" inside my head?

___

@ DrJest:

A bit Off-Topic but anyways: I would suggest rethinking that action declaration in reverse order to initiative. You'll end up with characters acting (instead of reacting) on actions that so far haven't occured and simultaniously forcing characters to carry out declared tasks, even if the situation has dramatically changed.
Wounded Ronin
Well, let me put it this way.

If I'm fighting a real person who absolutely sucks and they go for an attack first it certainly does just give me a big opening to whomp him.

But if we're talking Wired III shadowrun characters who move like The Flash...then I couldn't do much against them. I mean, we're talking movement so fast that it, like, creates time dilation. You have to imagine trying to box/fence/wrestle The Flash. Even if your form is better they could prance around you and, like, punch you in the kidneys before you can even react to their movement.
GrinderTheTroll
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)
Well, let me put it this way.

If I'm fighting a real person who absolutely sucks and they go for an attack first it certainly does just give me a big opening to whomp him.

But if we're talking Wired III shadowrun characters who move like The Flash...then I couldn't do much against them. I mean, we're talking movement so fast that it, like, creates time dilation. You have to imagine trying to box/fence/wrestle The Flash. Even if your form is better they could prance around you and, like, punch you in the kidneys before you can even react to their movement.

It's interesting how Quickness has such a minor impact on Melee combat. Two identical combatants where only the differed in Quickness would only differ in a few Combat Pool. There is something to be said for Quickness as well as skill for SR, I suppose this is it.
Wounded Ronin
Maybe this holiday season I'll try to write up more realistic melee rules. Depends on how much time I have for it, I guess.
GrinderTheTroll
Realism is always subject to whoever is playing. I don't mind the SR melee system, it accomplishes what it needs to with minimal overhead.
Cochise
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)
But if we're talking Wired III shadowrun characters who move like The Flash...

But that's already the first incorrect comparison. Reaction and initiative enhanced individuals in SR do not move like The Flash. Their physical speed is still the same as the speed of a person without wires, as long as the involved quickness attributes are the same.

Wounded Ronin
But then why do inits over 10 cause time dilation?

Multiple actions instead of simply acting first once would tend to suggest that the characters are doing everything faster.
Cochise
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)
But then why do inits over 10 cause time dilation?

The nature of sequential game mechanics. Interestingly enough the "time dilation" effect also includes non-boosted persons, because their actions also turn into "Flash"-moves ...
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)
But if we're talking Wired III shadowrun characters who move like The Flash...then I couldn't do much against them. I mean, we're talking movement so fast that it, like, creates time dilation. You have to imagine trying to box/fence/wrestle The Flash. Even if your form is better they could prance around you and, like, punch you in the kidneys before you can even react to their movement.

It doesn't really work like that. Wired-III doesn't even give you Quickness bonuses, it doesn't make any difference in how powerful or effective your muscles are. For something as basic as punching someone, it would just cut down on the time from you deciding this would be a good time to punch to the point where you start swinging.

Obviously that could also be a help in a melee fight, but it's nowhere near The Flash. Having Wired-III will not make your muscles stronger, it will not allow you to accelerate your arm faster nor does it allow you to get it to a higher maximum velocity, except perhaps by a tiny amount accounted for by a better "co-operation" between muscle groups thanks to better reactions. Something like the Move By Wire system might work amazingly well for a melee fighter, though, because the way the implant is described it does seem like it might allow you to accelerate your hand faster.

In my medieval fantasy SR game, melee works pretty much as in canon, except that you get a cumulative +1 penalty on all melee checks beyond the first that you have to defend against per your action. This also overrides the penalties for fighting against several opponents. This way if you've got only 1 action and the enemy has 3 in one CT, there are no penalties on the first attack and defend, the second time the faster guy attacks the slower one gets a +1, and on the third one the slower gets a +2. I like it, and it won't get complicated unless there are lots of people with different amounts of actions engaging each other.
Moon-Hawk
Well that's the source of all this confusion. What does initiative enhancement mean, exactly?
It doesn't make you run any faster, but it most certainly allows you to accomplish a lot more in your three seconds than someone without.
Does it really crank up your nerve/muscle activation and get you doing more things, or does it only apply to reactions in a combat situation?

edit: well, I posted that too slowly to be relevant.
iPad
I would like to imagen it in the context of a movie, like say the Matrix.

Wired 3 would be like 50% slow mo but the 'actions' would be at normal speed. I dont think they would blur, it would just look like someone messing around, doing things sloppy and quick, but retain their normal effectiveness. Watch a good modern day boxer throw a set of punches, I dont see how being jazzed up can make you THAT much quicker.
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