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Moon-Hawk
Let me set up the problem:
So, simrigs. 2 essence, and 300,000 nuyen.gif to 500,000 nuyen.gif . That's base grade. Oh, plus another 0.6 essence and another 100,000 nuyen.gif or so for the simlink transmitter, if you want that.
Compare to an opticam and audio recorder. 0.8 essence (total) and 27,000 nuyen.gif (total) That's if you don't have cyber eyes or ears already to help absorb that whopping 0.8 essence cost. Then a little bit more of both if you want a transmitter, but much, much cheaper than the simlink.
So obviously the simrig records more. It records touch and smell and taste, and for the expensive one, an emotive track as well. Super. But I think that audio and video are by far the most useful. So for an extra metric-frag-ton of nuyen and a third of your essence, you can add on a couple of marginally useful senses.

So by now you're asking, "But Moon-Hawk, what's your point?"

You: "But Moon-Hawk, what's your point?"

My point is, strictly in terms of game balance and usefulness, the simrig only somewhat more useful than opticam and recorder, but astronomically more expensive in terms of essence and cash. Game balance aside, we have no other basis for comparison. Whatever they decided simrig technology should cost in terms of essence and nuyen we would all shrug and go with it. So why did they have to make it so darn expensive? Why've they gotta ruin all my fun?

See, here's what I wanted to do. I wanted to make an ex-sim-star. Their gimmick was that they played an adept. They'd have cyberware. Boosted reflexes, reflex recorders, balance augmenters, artwinkulation, all sort of "transparent" cyberware. Just stuff that improves performance but without anything super-obvious to the user like hard metal spots or status displays or drek like that. For a mundane viewer, all they know is they're jumping into the body of someone who can do mad flips and stuff like that, the sim-star is playing the part of an adept, and it's fun for all. Then later when they go on the street they have to hide their identity, but even if people figure out who it is they might mistakenly believe them to be an adept. Even more fun for all. I thought it would be a great character to play; a really fun concept, but the cost (essence and money both) really put a damper on it. Anything I could do to help convince a GM to let me try this and maybe weasel some kind of discount out of them?
Siege
It's not like a simrig is going to be massively unbalancing - I suspect your GM would let you take a corp-sponsored discount just because the simrig won't be doing anything particularly useful, except for turning the PC into a walking sensory recording unit.

-Siege
Moon-Hawk
Exactly my point.
Which is why I'm tempted to get greedy and, if I have to sell my soul to a corp and be hunter or whatever anyway, try to get it beta-grade.
But even in that extreme case it seems like the esence cost of 1.56 is more than costly enough to make up for the minor bonus I'd get, all money aside. But I wouldn't mind taking a hunted or distinctive style flaw for no points if it got my GM to give me the 'ware for "free."
GrinderTheTroll
Yeah that whole field of Cyber hasn't appeard on any PC toon I've ever seen. As you've pointed out, it's costly in both essence and $$ and does little to add to game-play.

If one of my players wanted to do something like your suggesting (and not just to make some $$ selling off combat-sims of Runs... eek.gif ) then I would probably let them delta it for free just so they could do something different and probably entertaining.
Moon-Hawk
Oh yeah. This wouldn't be for extra money or anything. I mean, sure, it'd be great if it was a cool part of a run or two, but if your M.O. is to record and sell all your runs to the public, that's gonna get you a real bad reputation with the Johnsons.
But it could be a little bit extra useful. You want proof that we killed him? Here's the recording. You could sell your Johnson a full "transcript" of the run for an extra 10,000 nuyen.gif . I don't know why he might want it. Memento, trophy, verification; plenty of reasons. They probably wouldn't go for the sale very often, but it'd be a fun way to get a little extra cred occasionally when it's appropriate to the type of run you're doing.
Kagetenshi
I think simrigs are one of the places where they let realism interfere with game balance. For balance, I'd say take the price of the opticam+ear recorder, multiply by ~2, and multiply Essence by 1.25 or so. Note that I don't recommend actually doing so, as it (IMO) breaks realism somethin' fierce for something that doesn't necessarily need to be balanced.

~J
Rev
Eh, the opticam and ear recorder should be way cheaper too smile.gif
Black Isis
What I want is something like what Molly had in Neuromancer, where Case essentially "rode" her through the runs to get Dixie and in Straylight. I've thought about just making a small recorder you wore on your body, with a plug that goes in your datajack and just pulls from your sensorium that way, rather than being built into your skull.

If I make simrigs for my SilCORE conversion, I will probably make them considerably more PSY friendly (read Essence friendly), although I don't know if they will be cheaper. I don't have a problem with them being expensive so much.
GrinderTheTroll
QUOTE (Black Isis)
What I want is something like what Molly had in Neuromancer, where Case essentially "rode" her through the runs to get Dixie and in Straylight. I've thought about just making a small recorder you wore on your body, with a plug that goes in your datajack and just pulls from your sensorium that way, rather than being built into your skull.

If I make simrigs for my SilCORE conversion, I will probably make them considerably more PSY friendly (read Essence friendly), although I don't know if they will be cheaper. I don't have a problem with them being expensive so much.

Good reference. Too bad SR doesn't really lend itself to those sorts of things more often.
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk @ Dec 21 2004, 12:51 PM)
So obviously the simrig records more.  It records touch and smell and taste, and for the expensive one, an emotive track as well.  Super.  But I think that audio and video are by far the most useful.  So for an extra metric-frag-ton of nuyen and a third of your essence, you can add on a couple of marginally useful senses.

For the same reason that movie cameras are rented for thousands of dollars per day--the market's small, and they have the money to pay for it.

The essence cost is the same as Wired Reflexes 1, which is the closest (IMO) to the extent of neural interface necessary for it to be worth it (either). Transmitters are stupid because commo cyber in SR is stupid, and should be maybe half.

OTOH, there are also external simlinks, which they probably used for the cybered-up death monsters who transitioned in acting (or athletes, especially football, urban brawl and combat biking where the players can already be pretty heavily cybered).

I was thinking about it the other day (although given my current state, a knitting sim would be as enjoyale just for the RAS cut-out) but I don't use enough media or culture references, especially to sim, in my games.
hobgoblin
there are other senses then sight and sound that can be used, smell/taste can be usefull at times, and touch can be interesting if a person "experienceing" the recording or signal can read braille (or whatever that language is called). being allowed to become a person may enable you to pick up on signales that the person your rideing may overlook, like a brush of air or a smell that you are familiar with but that the person dont know what is...
mfb
not to mention the emotive tracks, where you actually feel fear/elation/bliss/whatever.
Tarantula
QUOTE (Black Isis)
What I want is something like what Molly had in Neuromancer, where Case essentially "rode" her through the runs to get Dixie and in Straylight. I've thought about just making a small recorder you wore on your body, with a plug that goes in your datajack and just pulls from your sensorium that way, rather than being built into your skull.

If I make simrigs for my SilCORE conversion, I will probably make them considerably more PSY friendly (read Essence friendly), although I don't know if they will be cheaper. I don't have a problem with them being expensive so much.

Its called a snake-eyes system in R3R.
Adarael
QUOTE (Black Isis)
If I make simrigs for my SilCORE conversion, I will probably make them considerably more PSY friendly (read Essence friendly), although I don't know if they will be cheaper.

If you finish that SilCORE conversion, I will love you forever, and worship at your feet. The Silhouette system is one of the most vastly underrated systems in play.

(Which reminds me... You ever played Tribe 8?)
Black Isis
QUOTE (Adarael @ Dec 21 2004, 08:10 PM)
QUOTE (Black Isis @ Dec 21 2004, 04:41 PM)
If I make simrigs for my SilCORE conversion, I will probably make them considerably more PSY friendly (read Essence friendly), although I don't know if they will be cheaper.

If you finish that SilCORE conversion, I will love you forever, and worship at your feet. The Silhouette system is one of the most vastly underrated systems in play.

(Which reminds me... You ever played Tribe 8?)

It's coming along pretty well actually -- I have most of the basics all done. Magic has a few holes, but not many, and I haven't touched decking or rigging yet, though rigging is going to be FAR simpler, since SilCORE already has a vehicle-scale system (and it scales well with the rest of the game). Decking I've not really thought about too much.

Is there anything you're especially interested in me finishing? I'm working on getting stats done for spirits right now, since that's one of the last things I need to do for the basic magic stuff (the other being a good method for dispelling).

And, while I own Tribe 8, I haven't played it.
Kanada Ten
QUOTE
Anything I could do to help convince a GM to let me try this and maybe weasel some kind of discount out of them?

Well, first, buy them alphaware but used. Then take a few high level flaws such as Bad Reputation (known for ruthless dirt digging), Dark Secret (you must give a copy of all the recordings to your manager to complete your contract which ends with the release of your reality simsense show), and a few low level Extra Enemies (you burned a few powerful people on your climb). Along with something like "Debt to the Mob", you should have enough to convince your GM that the Simrig is worth fudging for you... I'm not sure the other players will disagree either.

Of course, you could always take the external version and increase the Conceal.
CircuitBoyBlue
I'm not sure the external simrigs ever made all that much sense to me. Unless I'm missing something, simrigs (even the basic ones) record not just external stimuli, but also physiological responses to it. For instance, it would record not just me smelling the monster in the corner, but also my increased heart rate. I don't see how an external rig would do that.

I always took the humongous essence and cash cost of simrigs to mean that it's not something every runner would have, and if you waste someone with a simrig, whoever had to pay for it is going to be VERY upset with you. And since it's out of the price range of most people, that someone will most likely be a corp sponsor. In fact, now that I think about it, the essence cost might be so high because once you've agreed to sell all your experiences AND your reactions to them to a corp, you've pretty much sold a good portion of your soul...
hyzmarca
The massive essence cost for a simrig is a matter of game ballance. Imagine the millions of nuyen one could make selling homemade BTL porn.
Moon-Hawk
Good point. eek.gif
Kanada Ten
QUOTE
I'm not sure the external simrigs ever made all that much sense to me. Unless I'm missing something, simrigs (even the basic ones) record not just external stimuli, but also physiological responses to it. For instance, it would record not just me smelling the monster in the corner, but also my increased heart rate. I don't see how an external rig would do that.

Increased heart rate would be one of the easier senses to record externally as this is how a polygraph functions. The only track not available for external rigging is the emotive track. However, studios "dub" or insert much of this track in production because it is difficult to find those talented in forced emotive response. It's something akin to a laugh track.
CircuitBoyBlue
Well, ok, heartrate can be done, but my point was that there'd be a lot that couldn't be done because it involves internal responses as much as external simuli. You're right, most of that could be dubbed, but that only makes sense in a situation where you're sending something to post-production.
Kanada Ten
QUOTE (CircuitBoyBlue)
Well, ok, heartrate can be done, but my point was that there'd be a lot that couldn't be done because it involves internal responses as much as external simuli.

But most of those will be induced in the simsense user as a result of perceived external stimuli at any rate.

I agree that external gear will not give the same million dollar performance of internal, nor can it record your dreams or thoughts, and so on. That doesn't negate it for many character concepts, however.

QUOTE
You're right, most of that could be dubbed, but that only makes sense in a situation where you're sending something to post-production.

I suspect most "legitimate" simsense institutions will have some kind of post-production on all simsense. One must burn the data to chip after all and a very basic program could add crude "technoemot" to most recordings - though that really would feel like a laugh track.
Garland
Doesn't the SSG cover all this? There is emotive post-production on simsense.
Crimsondude 2.0
Yes. (SSG, 26)

They also have "sense patches" for people with installed rigs.

But even today, the amount of things added in post-production is unbelievable. ADR is prevalent even in scenes where you'd never really think that the ambient noise was so bad on the set or location that you can't hear anything on the dailies.
Lucyfersam
I tend to agree that the price of the simrig in both essence and and price is for the sake of realism, but I don't think that it is necessarily valid realism. Fundamentally, a smirig simply needs to be the opposite of a datajack. It records all of your sensory information, a datajack in capable of supplying full sensory information. In purely technical terms, the simrig is actually significantly easier. Now, the price of a datajack is only so low because it is so fundamental to the nature of the world, rather than out of any sort of realism (as it is probably the single most complicated and massive piece of 'ware, strictly neurologically speaking), but given they've already abandoned realism on the datajack, it seems silly to maintain it on the simrig.
Lucyfersam
double post due to system error.
Kanada Ten
I agree if you're suggesting we abandon the function of datajacks that induces simsense. Going the opposite way and having full simrigs at .2 essence I think is a huge mistake. Instead, I'd like to break the simrig into the seven facets of recording + inducing and allow one to buy components (taste, touch, smell, sight, sound, emotion and thought). Then I'd reduce the essence cost of each sense to .2 and 5,000 nuyen. Then I'd make useable (aka fashionable, light, affordable) external simgear. But I think 80% of cyber is a joke anyway (a good joke though).
Ved'ma
I don't see simsense as being that essense intensive. The body is already wired naturally to transmit senses from the sense organs to the brain, it's just a matter of intercepting those signals for recording and sending false ones for playback. I would personally think a datajack should be able to do it all with the right external hardware jacked in.
Kanada Ten
QUOTE
The body is already wired naturally to transmit senses from the sense organs to the brain, it's just a matter of intercepting those signals for recording and sending false ones for playback.

Just a matter of intercepting every single nerve impluse to the brain, yeah. I'm being generous at .2 essence per sense, IMO. But, YMMV.
Lucyfersam
I would like to see a happy medium between the .2 essence and 2 essence, breaking both systems up into components would be a good idea. It would give some further differentiation to deckers in there ware, as one might have somewhat different abilities depending on the level on input, and would make parts of simrigs that might be useful to a character useful. I'm not sure quite how I would break it down, have to give that some thought, but i would shoot for having the total essence cost somewhere in the 1-1.5 range.

The major problem with this is that the ubiquitous nature of datajacks is a fundamental part of the cyberpunk genre, but I think it could be worked out to have basic functionality still as common as rain in Seattle, while adding realism and some interesting differentiation to deckers.
Edward
What confuses me is that a baseline sim rig witch can be achieved with a external system costs the same essence as a full X if implanted. The nuyen cost should be up due to low demand (only used in the entertainment industry to any real extent)

A full x sim rig would have to connect to almost every point on the brain. One way to make it more probable (and more likely to be taken) would be to give a 10-20% reduction to the essence cost for any other headwear or sense-wear.

For your specific problem one solution is to remove theism rig before the start of the game. Unless you have only just entered the shadows I can easily believe that at some point between entering the shadows and start of play you decided the increased reflexes 1 they gave you are not good enough but you didn’t have the essence to improve it so you had the now unless to you sim rig removed.

As to essence costs on sense-wear its all out of wack. A cyber eye is a digital video camera. All you need to make a record of what you see is a branch in the data path to a recording media. Why dos this const a signifgant amount of essence. Dito for ear records display and image links digital zoom. Of cause for those items it is a balance consideration. Conversely ecos of its extreme popularity it is economically viable to do the research necessary to improve its instillation procedures

hyzmarca clamed“The massive essence cost for a simrig is a matter of game ballance. Imagine the millions of nuyen one could make selling homemade BTL porn”

I disagree. True there is a market but the crime sindickets have it fairly sown up. Also not the many other ways you can make money. Anybody with a magic rating can get 100 nuyen an hour high lifestyle in 50 hours a month. Deckers can write and distribute programmes, or just raid corpret holdings for enough pay data to tied them over.

Edward
hobgoblin
remeber that neither the cybereye or the cyberear in sr does any kind of signal conversion before its patched into the nerve, thats why mages can use them to target people (they are more or less analog devices but in a very small package). the recording mods are there to convert said signal into one that can be used by the computer. think of it like hardwireing a mp3 compressor on a chip to your ear...
Glyph
A suggestion on how to do your faux adept/sim-action star if your GM won't bend - use bioware. You can limit the cyber to some cybereyes with all the goodies, a few hearing modifications, and boosted reflexes (maybe plastic or ceramic bone lacing). Then, load up on bioware like enhanced articulation, muscle augmentation and toner, synthcardium, a synaptic accelerator to combine with the boosted reflexes for a decent initiative, and a few cosmetic mods like sensitive skin and clean metabolism. You will have someone tough, strong and fast, with enhanced senses, who still feels "natural".
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