In Earthdawn companion under the Key Knowledge section of Thread Magic, a 'vampire' is used as an example of gaining key knowledge of a true pattern. What's strange is that they just throw out a vampire even though vampires don't appear anywhere in the Earthdawn books. Not in Creatures or Denizens or Horrors even. Yet Vampires are acknowledged as being part of the game world. The only mention of what could be HMHVV appears in Blood Wood. Under the Escalanas Ranelle description is described Eletheria Escalanas. She was a powerful magician who was accused of dealing with dark forces, etc. So right before the ritual of Thorns she is kicked out of the Wood. After the scourge, people, especially Blood Wardens start to get killed. Their hearts are ripped out and all the blood drained from their bodies on nights of the full moon. A pale, ghost-like woman fitting the description of Eletheria seems to be the one doing it. Eletheria seems to have surviveed the scourge, but is she the first (wereX?/)vampire in 'the world?' The Queen of the Damned, so to speek? The whole ripping out of the heart and drinking blood seems like a not-so-subtle hint.

In Barsaive in Chaos 'vampires' are listed as horror constructs but that doesn't sound much like HMHVV which is a disease of the blood. I don't know if they are supposed to be 'Vampires' or are just 'vampires.' HMHVV is clearly blood magic, literally, not something directly tied to Horrors. Seems like Eletheria was dabbling in serious blood magic searching for a way to survive the scourge and created a way to survive the scourge by sucking blood, but who's blood did she suck outside during the scourge? Horrors? Maybe she struck some deal with a Horror.

So does that mean Vampires and those who suffer from HMHVV are Horrors or Horror Marked in some way? Or does it give them some unique power to resist Horrors as Eletheria seems to have done? I guess in Shadowrun terminology, Eletheria would be a Banshee.

Well, I honestly don't know crap about what you're talking about, never even dream of going into Earthdawn stuff, but I am aware (via Ancient History posts) that Dunk was very anti-horror, supposedly sacrificing himself to prevent Horrors from re-entering. If Vampires were Horror affiliations, I think you'd see alot more about rewards for their deaths in his Will. So, since Dunk didn't seem all that interested in the existance of this 'disease', I'm voting Eletheria cause it sounds like a cool story (though I'm sure an 'other' is more liekly)

Sphynx

HMHVV is most decidely not a disease of the blood. It's a retrovirus. It may be that the virus itself is the product of some Horror back in Earthdawn times, but as ye've said: no stats, no explanation yet.

Besides which, I dinnae think blood magic would completely account for the varied effects of the virus...such as the Wendigo, Goblin, etc.

The HMHVV is not a virus in the world of shadowrun! Like the infamous UGE syndrome that created the elves and the dwarves (Unexplained Genetic Expression, what the hell of an explaination is this anyway?) there is no explaination. They just didn't know what to make of it, saw that it was transmitted from one person to another so that they keep people from even farther histeria they called it a virus. Noone knows what it is, just like the Goblinization incident. The fact that it has varients is totally POV. This is just the way the scientific folk saw it and clasified it. Try speaking to a shaman about HMHVV and the rest of that jargot and we'll see what he has to say.
I haven't read the stuff Euiscerati speaks about (haven't played Earthdawn) but it is a good <<official>> explaination for those who have played both games.

I am rather pleased to inform you that HMHVV is a retorvirus(or, rather, family of retroviruses), it is canon, and has been commented on extensively in a half-dozen Shadowrun sourcebooks; while vampires, sadly, are mentioned barely, and in passing, in only three Earthdawn books.

Current weight of evidence thus tilts toward SR. Please visit my web page to learn more, in "The Infected" file. The link is at the bottom of my .sig.

Just because it's carried in bodily fluids does not make HMHVV a blood disease, as I stated. If a vampire pissed into one of your open wounds, you could catch it.

Aside from that, the damn thing is a virus and mucks with your genetics, changing them in such a way as to create astral shadows (i.e. grant your paranormal abilities). It's much more likely the continual essence loss is a function of these gross genetic changes than blood magic.

Besides which, you said yourself: there were hints and rumors of vampires BEFORE Escalanas went rabid.

Just don't forget Eletheria was not banned because she was using dark magic, that's only what was said, but she was really banned because Alachia was jealous and wanted Kethos (which if I remember correctly was the "boyfriend" of Eletheria)

*erm* Just a little reminder: Not all HMHVV variants are transfered via blood.

Banshees for example feed on fear. No real physical contact involved. Still they can infect a victim with HMHVV upon draining its Essence to zero ...

it occurs to me that the HMHVV's physical form may not be the vehicle through which the disease is passed on. i'm getting this from two facts: first, the banshee does not have to draw blood in order to pass on HMHVV; second, non-humans (except for some elves) who are drained to 0 essence by nosferatu die.

it's like this: if HMHVV were a virus that could survive exposure to open air for long periods of time--like, for instance, on the surface of a banshee's skin--everyone would have it, as non-infected carriers. obviously, mere exposure to the virus isn't enough; a victim has to be at 0 essence before the virus is able to act on its host. but if everyone, or even a significant fraction of the population, were unwitting carriers of HMHVV, there would be lots of cases of orks, dwarves, and trolls becoming wendigo, goblins, and dzoo-noo-qua when brought to 0 essence by a nosferatu: even though the nosferatu strain of HMHVV doesn't take hold, many nosferatu victims would already be carriers of the 'normal' strain, which would become active when its host reaches 0 essence.

therefore, it can be reasoned that infection by HMHVV is a 'personal' thing--you catch it from the bastard that drains you to 0 essence; the virus can't even survive in a host that hasn't been drained. but the virus also can't survive exposure to open air, as reasoned above. so how do banshees transmit the disease? they'd don't have to exchange fluids to to it, all they have to do is touch the victim.

the answer, i would argue, is that the physical form of the virus is not the cause of the disease. the physical virus itself may not even be the factor that causes such massive change in its host. when a banshee--or whatever--touches its victim and drains the victim to 0 essence, the vampire's astral form interacts with the victim's--that is, the vampire's aura (or, possibly, the virus' aura) contacts the 'astral shadow' of the victim's genetic structure (see the metagenetics section in SOTA:63). it changes the astral shadow, which in turn effects a change in the physical portion of the victim's genetic structure, turning the victim into a vampire/wendigo/goblin/dzoo-noo-qua/banshee/nosferatu. among the other changes made to the victim's genetic stucture, the new vampire's body becomes a factory for the physical portion of the HMHV virus.

so, if the physical virus body doesn't exist to transmit the disease, what does it do? HMHVV changes the metahuman physiology so that the host is able to draw essence from a victim, and then somehow impart that energy to the physical body of the vampire. the most obvious vehicle for this exchange would be the HMHV virus itself: the body dumps the essence into the virus' astral portion, which in turn reconfigures the physical portion into a structure that resembles ATP (the compound muscles use to make themselves move). the HMHVV in turn dumps its energy into the muscles, destroying the virus body; the remnants of the virus body are absorbed by the host and remanufactured into new virii.

I like it, but there is a slight snag - what about ghouls? They've got HMHVV. - but don't drain essence from anyone. And can still infect others.

(Personally, I just use the approach that VITAS is a nasty disease. HMHVV is a nasty disease with supernatureal powers).

Considering your arguements, I have touched up some points in my Infected page.

The problem is that HMHVV is a SR notion and it's very poorly developed there. Vampires CAN give you the virus while suckoing your blood. Vampires don't transfer HMHVV through the air or through contact, but through blood or perhaps other bodily fluids. The key is CAN, as it appears that they have a choice in it. If they suck your blood, they don't necessarily givbe you HMHVV. They can drain your Essence to 0 and kill you or drain your essence to 0 and infect you. The critter rules for infection say they drain you to 0 essence so if they drain you to 1 I guess you couldn't get it. It's clear the transmission of the HMHVV virus from a Vampire requires a direct access to to the internal structure of the body. It's less clear how such a transmission could occur from a Banshee.The disease of Vampirism is poorly explained and poorly conceived in SR. The classic notion of a Vampire combined with the medical notion of a virus to explain it makes sense in the case of Vampires where the virus is transmitted through blood contact like aids, etc. The SR folks got a little too cute when they expanded HMHVV toother metatypes and gave them different powers. Doesn't make much sense but that's often a problem in SR.

Eletheria Escalanas is clearly the originator of HMHVV/Vampirism. They go out of their way to talk about her and lay on you just about every clue possible without openly stating she created HMHVV. Powerful wizard with powerful experiments into blood magic, rumors of horror involvement, she survived the scourge and now has super strength/essence and needs to 'feed' regularly on the hearts and blood of victims and she's only seen at night and is 'pale.' Vampires exist in the Earthdawn world, yet they are so rare they ar enever a major part of any of the mythos of ED. They exist but are few in numbers and we have a discription of what sounds like Vampirism, though the human form, in a powerful elf wizardress who's done some forbidden research in blood magic. That seems pretty clear to me. there are 'vampires' but no 'Vampires' typical of Sr in ED, she seems to be the originator of the blood magic/virus that causes Vampirism.

While I'm not saying you're wrong (though I really do think you are), you would please note that HMHVV is a magical disease of several different varieties, each with its own properties. Some (but not all) of the Infected drain Essence while feeding, some do not. Some require metahuman blood or flesh as a dietary supplement, some do not. The exact composition of the virus (and it's effects on metahumans) varies widely, but that very fact tends to dissprove your proposed origin.

If HMHVV is a function or creation of blood magic, then the Essence loss could be considered the Depatterning sufferred from continued blood magic use. However, this fails to explain why the virus does not induce Essence Loss in some species infected with it, and especially why it does not induce essence loss in related viruses.

Aside from all that which is purely conjecture, you Queen of the Damned model fails in one thing: evidence. There's no proof that there is any connection between vampires and blood magic, there is no proof that Escalanas has ever transmitted her condition, and if we apply Occam's razor, which is more likely:
Escalanas is a banshee, or Escalanas is a horror construct/horror marked/insane and cannabilistic?

about ghouls--the Kreiger strain doesn't require the victim to be drained to essence 0; the 'normal' rules for HMHVV don't apply to it. heck, it could be that the physical component of HMHVV mutated to a state where it is the agent of change in the victim's astral shadow.

Look, omae you are trying to pove your point, fine. That means you are presenting evidence, in this case a specific piece of obscure text from a book laden with plot and adventure hooks, most of which are left to be developed by the GM. I'd suggest you calm down and re-read what you just posted, because you have yet to make a valid point beyond "Well, maybe, see X, Y and Z." You can play it like that if you want in your game, but don't get pissy just because the material in SR doesn't automatically back up your theory.

you and your "logic" and your "facts".

Well, alright, it's not like I have a great deal more to back up my point either.

well, you're also not saying that anything definitely is or is not. Eblippidybloop (sorry, don't feel like looking for the correct spelling) is very definitely saying that his proposal is out-and-out fact, when in reality it's simply a theory that fits the known facts exceptionally well. and then getting indignant when someone points that out.