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Backgammon
Ok, so normally having an elemental use a Power costs 1 service. So say you tell your fire elemental "attack those guys" (1 service) and then during combat you want more punch so you say "engulf that guy" that's another service.

What about bound guard elementals? It says you pay karma, then they patrol the area you bound them to. You can specify what you want the guard to do ("Astral guards may attempt to directly engage intruders or simply alert other security forces.")

But will an Elemental use it's Powers during combat? Since it no longer owes you any more services, merely the 365 guarding days, how do you get it to use powers? It won't? Only basic attacks?
Herald of Verjigorm
Task bound, unfree, and watchers have no service limit. You tell (if you have the authority) and they obey according to their nature.
Backgammon
Isn't that a little too powerful? Unlimited use of Powers?
Kagetenshi
But only for the single task. Loss of versatility for power, sounds fair to me.

~J
Herald of Verjigorm
Watchers are generally incompetant, un-free types are usually trying to stab you in the back, and task-bound can only work toward one goal and cost karma to set to a task. I have not yet seen a case where I consider any of those to be unfair (except maybe watcher attack packs, depending on how friends in melee is handled).
Crimson Jack
Hmm. I hadn't thought of that before. I can't remember if this is touched on in the rules, but is ordering an elemental to "attack that guy" and "attack that team" the same thing (as far as the expediture of services is concerned), or does the elemental consider each person a different service?
draco aardvark
I've always just said "guard me" and figured that they're often smarter than I am, so they know what is threatening. Whenever the threat has passed to the best of my knowledge, I'll tell it that it can leave (so as not to continue using up services for the every-24-hours thing.)
toturi
The elemental is an NPC, though the PC might have some say in its actions. As a GM I'd look at the Force of the elemental before deciding whether the elemental is smarter or not.
RedmondLarry
My players have learned to tell their Nature Spirits and Elementals:

"Fight to kill (or knock out) all those guys (pointing at opponents) starting with that one (pointing at specific individual)."

We consider that a single service in my campaign.
Zen Shooter01
I don't have the book in my lap, but I believe the BBB specifically says that ordering the spirit to attack a group of people is one service.

Really, the issue is one of the elemental's ability to interpret commands. For example, the command is, "Kill everyone in that room." The elemental goes in and attacks the nearest person. While it's doing that, everyone else in the room runs out the back door, and thereby saves themselves - they're not in the room anymore, so they're not on the hit list anymore, either.

The command might be, "Knock a hole through this wall." The intention of the magician is to get a new door, but the elemental might just punch one fist-sized hole and consider its duty discharged. Or it might knock a hole big enough for a Cadillac, and thereby bring the roof down.

A related question, seperate from the elemental's Intelligence, is the spirit's, well, I'll say "education". For example, if someone pointed at a table full of car parts and said to me, "Bring me the fuel injector off that table," I wouldn't know which part to bring, because I have very little education about car parts.

How much less education does a spirit that was only conjured this morning have? Does it know things automatically, magically? And what things? Can it make an espresso? Operate a trideo? Do the hokey-pokey?

It's a difficult question. I've always handled it by using the guidelines for astral perception as guidelines for what the spirit understands. So it knows a mannequin from a metahuman from a raccoon, but it doesn't know a sack of flour from a sack of concrete, or an AK-97 from an insecticide sprayer.
toturi
I've usually taken the expedient step of allowing the player to command the elemental. Command as in he does not necessarily need to speak, it could be just a gesture, a tilt of the head or some such. The BBB/SR3 does not state how the command must be communicated. It seems just dumb that a mute(no pun intended) magician cannot command his elementals.
Backgammon
Maybe rolling a Force test vs complexity of the command, just like drones, could be a solution.
Sandoval Smith
Simply to avoid occurences of (potentially unfairly) screwing players, I say go by intent, unless they really screw their command.

Player: Fire elemental, kill everyone in that room!
Fire Elemental: FWOOOOSH!
GM: You do remember they have a hostage in their?
Player ... crap.

If dealing with a low intelligence spirit, it is a little more diffulcult. The drone route seems a pretty reasonable idea, if you don't want to rule on a case by case basis.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (OurTeam)
My players have learned to tell their Nature Spirits and Elementals:

"Fight to kill (or knock out) all those guys (pointing at opponents) starting with that one (pointing at specific individual)."

We consider that a single service in my campaign.

I might consider that two, based on the division between "attack those people" and "start with that one", but that'd be the max it'd cost.

And actually I probably would still just make it one service, but I might argue that it could be two.

~J
BitBasher
Whether spirits use powers without explcitly being told to do so is a function in my game of how well the "spirit community" thinks of the summoner. If the summoner treats his spirits well they do, if he abuses them then they will try their best to twist his orders and things become much more difficult.
draco aardvark
QUOTE (Sandoval Smith)
If dealing with a low intelligence spirit, it is a little more diffulcult. 

I've never seen anyone conjure an elemental of less than force 3 though, so it has at least human intelligence. I don't think you even could conjure a force 2 of some spirits, as they have a force-2 for some attributes, which would make it a 0.
QUOTE (Sandoval Smith)
The drone route seems a pretty reasonable idea, if you don't want to rule on a case by case basis.

"The drone route" is the same as an intelligence test (int=force).

Would you all as GM's have problems with a player saying "don't let people hurt me" as a service, and if it's a reasonably smart (force 5 or more) then it goes after someone shooting or swinging at the character?
Backgammon
QUOTE (draco aardvark)
Would you all as GM's have problems with a player saying "don't let people hurt me" as a service, and if it's a reasonably smart (force 5 or more) then it goes after someone shooting or swinging at the character?

Well, it's similar to saying "guard me".

Scene: guy walks in, takes out a gun, and shoots mage. Spirit attacks gunman. Mage dies shortly after from gunshot wound. The spirit isn't going to attack anyone that hasn't attacked the mage first... Or if it does, you have to risk that it might kill a perfectly innocent person because it read his intentions wrong.

"don't let people hurt me" says nothing about actually going after people attacking you. The spirit might just as well place itself in front of bullets to stop them from hitting you, or pick you up and flee the scene with you, or place furniture around you as cover, etc.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (draco aardvark)
I've never seen anyone conjure an elemental of less than force 3 though, so it has at least human intelligence.

Force 2 elementals are awesome for service-spamming.

~J
draco aardvark
QUOTE (Backgammon)
"don't let people hurt me" says nothing about actually going after people attacking you. The spirit might just as well place itself in front of bullets to stop them from hitting you, or pick you up and flee the scene with you, or place furniture around you as cover, etc.

Save for the picking me up, that may actually be preferable in some situations smile.gif
Now I've got to use that....
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