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Sandoval Smith
I was watching one of the year end specials on various oddities and ends that pop up on Japanese TV at New Years, and one program included a segment pitting a katana vs a bipod mounted .50 machin gun. The kanta blade (it was removed from the hilt) was put in a vice about ten yards from the gunner. I expected one shot to take the sword out, but it managed to withstand six hits (indeed actually cutting some of the bullets in half, while others exploded into shrapnel after striking the edge, which tore the heck out of the cinder block wall behind it) before the seventh tore off the top two thirds, the rest peeling back along fold lines in the metal.

Given some of the blade vs bullet hijinks that pop up in Shadowrun, I thought it'd be interesting to mention.
Birdy
On the other hand you normally don't aim at the sword, you aim at the guy holding it. And I think he'll "peel back around fault lines" after the first hit.


Birdy
Herald of Verjigorm
It just means that if you can get a success on a TN 35 parry test, and on the TN base 8 dodge test that follows, you can successfully cut a bullet heading at you and get out of the way. It's still better just to dodge than show off and then have to deal with two half-bullets.
Walknuki
What a waste of a Katana. frown.gif
Sandoval Smith
I think it was worth it. The segment was pretty cool, and it's not like they're exactly rare. I suppose that this topic doesn't have a lot of signifigance for Shadowrun, but it seemed like an interesting thing to bring up.
Kagetenshi
I could definitely imagine it surviving a hit from something at such an extreme angle. I assume the bullet material was relatively soft?

~J
Fortune
What type of stats did they give for the katana in question? Was it one of the old and rare '1000 folds' variety, or was it of modern manufacture? Were the bullets soft or hard or normal or other?

There are too many unknowns for this to be of any real value.
Sandoval Smith
Well, I didn't understand a lot of what was going on, but I think that the sword was made for the demonstration or at least was modern made (there were several clips of an a swordmaker working on a blade, and he took obvious pride in it as he was setting it up for the demonstration). When they talked about the sword, I kept hearing numbers in the hundreds, which I think corresponded to the folds he used in making it.

As for the machine gun, there wasn't any real special attention paid to the bullets, so it's probably not too far off to assume that they were using whatever ammunition is 'standard' to belt feed through a machine gun. Even though the rounds were probably soft lead, I'm still impressed that the sword took seven of them before breaking.
Soma
Still, by far, the best use of the katana goes to:

http://media.ebaumsworld.com/katanaslip.mpg

I mean, with the amount of skill that guy uses in his swordplay...It's just beyond most forms of expression.
SirKodiak
Striking a katana on-edge is going to be hitting it in the way that is the most likely to not break it. Turn it so that the broad edge is facing the bullets and the first one is going to shatter it. Part of the skill of using a katana is absorbing blows on it correctly. This is one reason why people who are used to western swords aren't very fond of them.
mmu1
I have to ask, what "bipod mounted" .50 cal machine gun was this? Was it actually tripod mounted instead? Was it really a .50 cal?

Also, unless they specify what bullets it was loaded with, the "test" doesn't mean much, for all we know, they could have custom loaded with unjacketed lead to make it look good.
Voran
QUOTE (Soma)
Still, by far, the best use of the katana goes to:

http://media.ebaumsworld.com/katanaslip.mpg

I mean, with the amount of skill that guy uses in his swordplay...It's just beyond most forms of expression.

Heh.

"We uh...may need...emergency surgery...in the studio."

Still, wonderful craftsmanship. It survived like 2 whole hits on a wooden table before breaking!
Austere Emancipator
I'm seconding mmu1. "a bipod mounted .50 machin gun" is seriously setting off my bullshit alarm system. As does "As for the machine gun, there wasn't any real special attention paid to the bullets, so it's probably not too far off to assume that they were using whatever ammunition is 'standard' to belt feed through a machine gun. Even though the rounds were probably soft lead [...]".

Until I see something more, something more concrete, I'm calling BS on this.

I don't claim to understand everything about the physics involved, however. If the katana were instead a solid steel plate as thick as the sword blade is "deep", it would stop the round just nicely. [Edit]Not too great a margin, though, since 1"+ of armor steel will be penetrated by standard Ball rounds at 35 meters, and still 21mm at 500 meters.[/Edit] Also, even if this is true, it wouldn't do the person wielding the blade any god damn good at all -- s/he'd still get hit by what's left of the round, which means about 2 Heavy Pistol shots worth of bullet fragments traveling at over 2000fps. Can you say "Gore"? [Edit]Nevermind, that's basically what people were saying already.[/Edit]
toturi
Well, Sandoval's story isn't setting off my BS detector (which is located between my danger sensor and my pussy radar, maybe i need to get it fixed smile.gif ). I've got to see it for myself, most people who see a HMG mounted on legs and they call the leggy thing a bipod. As to the actual sword vs bullet thing, I've seen stranger things happen (in my former lab, no less).
Crusher Bob
Here's a link to the video on another forum.
lorthazar
Not to metion that if you were holding the katana when it took a round form a .50BMG, you aren't going to be holding it any longer. And your hands and forearms are going to hate you in ways you cannot imagine.
Sandoval Smith
Thanks for saving my bacon Crusher Bob. Like I said, I was just watching TV when that segment came on, and I didn't start really paying attention until I realized they were setting up the gun to be fired at the sword. So I missed a few of the cognizant details. I just saw a belt fed gun on some sort of stand.

The gun was a Browning .50 M2. I didn't pick up if they used any special ammunition. From the example, it looks like a regular lead round. Apprently, they didn't go into much detail about the creation of the sword, but it certainly was NOT an old, valuable, upteen thousand times folded katana.

Nor was I advocating that a sammy could use a katana to block a bullet. In a previous post I mentioned how much damage the shrapnel from a bullet that struck the edge did to the cinder block wall behind it. I just thought it was cool that the sword took seven rounds to break (as, even edge on, I was expecting it'd just be one).
DrJest
It's the dingbat half-way down Crusher Bob's link that gets me...

QUOTE
it is a waste of skill and effort to cut a bullet in half. it is much easier to hit it from the side with the flat of your blade, simply redirecting it. it is incredibly easy to do with spears and arrows and your bare hands, so swords and bullets is just a matter of practice.


The response was on the money though:

QUOTE
Uh.... right. You go practice deflecting something that moves faster then your eye can see


Retroactive birth control. It's the only solution.

QUOTE
She doesn't need more kids. All right? It's a judgement call, and I'm making it.

- Bill Hicks
Austere Emancipator
Of the bullets that hit, it seems several only nicked the blade, since there were only very few tiny fragments visible, the bullet staying intact as far as you can tell from the slow motion video. It's a pity they don't show exactly what happens with the back stop with each round, but it certainly seems only 3 of the rounds were actually cut (one instance) or mostly fragmented (2 instances).

It is rather amazing, though, that it could stand up to even one hit.
mmu1
Ok, so it was pretty impressive nyahnyah.gif Although most of the bullets were transferring only a very small fraction of their energy to the blade - for the most part, it was just pieces of the jacket getting stripped, it looked like.

Although I have a feeling any piece of reasonably high quality steel hit edge-on would perform in a similar way.
Kagetenshi
Probably, or at least any similarly-designed piece of steel, but that's not the point.

~J
FlakJacket
QUOTE
It is a waste of skill and effort to cut a bullet in half. It is much easier to hit it from the side with the flat of your blade, simply redirecting it. It is incredibly easy to do with spears and arrows and your bare hands, so swords and bullets is just a matter of practice.

Gene Police! You! Out of the pool, now!
Cray74
QUOTE (Voran)
Still, wonderful craftsmanship. It survived like 2 whole hits on a wooden table before breaking!

It might've been the steel, not the craftsmanship. 440 stainless steel is fine for cutlery (one of 440's popular applications), but it doesn't have the toughness for use in long blades being pounded against hard corners. That's assuming the 440-grade stainless is of good quality; 440 stainless with a lot of impurities is just going to be brittle crap. You can't tell from the video if it was good or bad quality steel.
Kagetenshi
I've got one of the swords being demonstrated, and they are indeed 440 stainless. The production quality isn't great in general, so while I'm positive that it isn't among the worst of possible qualities for the steel type (otherwise I'd've probably broken it by now) it's probably pretty far down there.

~J
Soma
QUOTE (Cray74)
It might've been the steel, not the craftsmanship. 440 stainless steel is fine for cutlery (one of 440's popular applications), but it doesn't have the toughness for use in long blades being pounded against hard corners. That's assuming the 440-grade stainless is of good quality; 440 stainless with a lot of impurities is just going to be brittle crap. You can't tell from the video if it was good or bad quality steel.

You want a microscope to overanalyze the humor inherent in that video next time, hoss?

It's QVC, or the Home Shopping Channel, so most likely it's crap quality to begin with. But overall, something tells me that host will think twice about slapping his junk on the counter like that again.
Fortune
QUOTE (Soma)
You want a microscope to overanalyze the humor inherent in that video next time, hoss?

I wasn't aware that this was a humor-only thread. ohplease.gif
Cray74
QUOTE (Soma)
You want a microscope to overanalyze the humor inherent in that video next time, hoss?


I apologize. The next time biggrin.gif I'm confronted by a humorous internet biggrin.gif video that I've seen four or five times before, I'll plaster smiley faces all over my post. Then biggrin.gif I'll go through my years-old rotfl.gif sent messages folder biggrin.gif and dig up the e-mail I biggrin.gif sent to my friends with the old video link biggrin.gif in and paste that into the grinbig.gif post, just so ya'll can see that I originally said, "Hey, ya'll, lookit this dumbass video clip" rotfl.gif and was much amused, like everyone else in the thread.

Or to put it more simply: Pardon me for skipping a smiley face on an OBVIOUSLY humorous video clip. I'll try to be more redundant next time. nyahnyah.gif
Arethusa
Resist Internet Cute Nazism. Resist smileys.

:| :\ :| :S :D :P
Cynic project
QUOTE (Sandoval Smith)
I was watching one of the year end specials on various oddities and ends that pop up on Japanese TV at New Years, and one program included a segment pitting a katana vs a bipod mounted .50 machin gun. The kanta blade (it was removed from the hilt) was put in a vice about ten yards from the gunner. I expected one shot to take the sword out, but it managed to withstand six hits (indeed actually cutting some of the bullets in half, while others exploded into shrapnel after striking the edge, which tore the heck out of the cinder block wall behind it) before the seventh tore off the top two thirds, the rest peeling back along fold lines in the metal.

Given some of the blade vs bullet hijinks that pop up in Shadowrun, I thought it'd be interesting to mention.

Well, here is one thing the katana was built out of weakness. The metal used to make the first and most old ones is rather poor by the standards of the time compared to the western swords. That is one reason they are folded so many times and most western swords aren't. This also why armours in the east were not as strong,and why the sword was used to much later dates.Note even before the wide use of guns, people were using things like mace,and axes more than swords.

Also note that the sword was held in place by a vice, this probally held it with more force than most human arms could hold. On a side note, the part where Hiro used his sword too cut bamboo was the awesome.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Cynic Project)
Also note that the sword was held in place by a vice, this probally held it with more force than most human arms could hold.

This is rather unimportant because, as people have mentioned several times, anyone holding that weapon would have been very, very dead anyway.
Lindt
Love the QVC bit. At 40 bucks, you get what you pay for.
The .50 vs katana video however. Im bloody impressed that it took that many hits. The first 2 where straight on, and hell, it CUT the sucker apart at on point. The last shot looks like it hit where the 1st on did though, and that was so the end of it. While I STILL wouldent want to be behind it, its nice to know that via sheer dumb luck it could deflect a round of less... bad-ass-ness. I mean it IS a BMG .50.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Lindt)
While I STILL wouldent want to be behind it, its nice to know that via sheer dumb luck it could deflect a round of less... bad-ass-ness.

Note that from every single hit on to the blade, the majority of the original mass of the bullet ends up hitting a rather small area on the back wall -- which is 5 meters away behind the blade. The deflection is minimal. Even in the two cases of majority fragmentation there is quite enough gilding metal and lead alloy impacting within a 0.5-meter radius circle in the wall to make a human thoroughly dead.
Kagetenshi
Just slightly less thoroughly. Maybe.

With regard to the cheap katana, $40 is overpriced. I got my one of those for ~$20, IIRC. Again, they're not utterly atrocious, but that says more about how much you can do on the cheap with modern manufacturing methods than the amount of care put into them.

~J
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Just slightly less thoroughly. Maybe.

Indeed maybe. I'm not sure if I'd even take the chances. If the bullet would otherwise have only hit an arm, the fragments would be more dangerous. If the bullet had hit the torso or the head, you're just as dead no matter what you do. If the bullet had hit your legs, you'll probably lose your leg(s) and live in either case.
Fresno Bob
I have that exact katana too. I paid like, 8 dollars for it.

I'm curious as to what the "great thing" about the sword was...
Tanka
QUOTE (Voorhees)
I have that exact katana too. I paid like, 8 dollars for it.

I'm curious as to what the "great thing" about the sword was...

He was probably going to back it up with "never breaks" or something ironic like that.

Yes, that is Pakistani Steel for you, folks. Got a few knives made of the stuff. I use them to spread mustard.

While you'd be little more than swiss meat if you managed to split a bullet in two several times (hell, even once would be enough), you'd probably gain a lot of noterieity simply for doing it, despite being dead.
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