I really want to know.

I mean, one the US,and later the UCAS was happy at letting huge ports go all around the map. Some of them are bigger than Seattle, these mainly being on the eastern side. But hey the US and the UCAS need a foot hold in the pacific. So Seattle is a great place,right? I mean it is only one city with boarders to a somewhat hostile nation.And just about ever part of it is within range of tank fire from said nation. But The papacifics a great big market, and to get to the large and relatively well protected ports in CaCaliforniawould mean that Us/UCAS good would have to go threw the NAN lands.... But enough about that. It is rather silly.

Now,let's talk about the Tir. They made Seattle their main port, rather than PORTLAND, because they sseeminglylike to pay ttariffsand let outsides sources have a larger voice how ,what and when they get their ssupplies

Then you have the corps. Who wish to put many vvaluableassets in one area, that they do not fully control. I mean that the corps do rule the city, but not threw one of them, so it is not Ares,or SK who is charge, but rather the snorm.

So, is there any reason why Seattle is so big? I mean, Denver could be big, with the treaty stuff. But Seatle just seems to be a fanboy's wet dream.

Probably because Seattle is where FASA decided to set the game Shadowrun™.

And I know this, but it is rather bothersome for people who do not play in Seattle. I mean, I love Blood in the Boardroom..Until I saw that they felt the need to talk about city level power players in Seattle, for like every one of the Megas.

It is as if the head of Ares CAS, wouldn't be worth talking about..But Seattle..Boy that is pure gold.

Well, Portland really isn't a "port"...you have to travel for a day along the Columbia river...sure, they have major shipyards there, but i don't think it sees near the traffic of Seattle/Tacoma...also, there is more of a "megacorp" presence in Seattle, even today - Boeing takes up huge areas, and then there are other defense contractors as well, plus throw in Microsoft and all the other software giants that congregate around them...also, from a cultural standpoint, Seattle is very diverse - and there is the Underground to consider...

i think just the fact of the weather and the perceived gloominess of the city lends itself more to SR also...

about the only other city i see that may have otherwise fit the bill is San Francisco...

yes, i can so see San Fran, the REAL city of "brotherly" love, rainbow crowds, and other gay pride rallies fitting in very well with the doom and gloom of SR....

ps. not that i have anything against gay pride, or any other kind of pride, but that is what i know san fran for being, not something sr'ish.. hell, i'd put Pittsburgh above San fran in the doom an gloom category...

Well, there has been some consideration in the news (albeit briefly) of turning Astoria into a shipping port in place of Portland.

Lets not forget the Seattle music scene. Perfect for "Rocker" runs.

Because they had to nuke chicago, that's why.

well, i see SF (and i'm talking the greater area, probably SF and Oakland combined) as follows:

* major transportation/shipping area
* together with Oakland, Monterey, and surrounding area that would be a sprawl by 2050, you have pretty much the same makeup of military, corporate, wealthy, and downtrodden areas as does the seattle sprawl.
* also a center for technology and industry - if you haven't driven around the SF airport area, it is a who's who in technology companies today
* along with above, don't forget silicon valley
* plenty of military bases
* support of said military bases by military/industrial complex
* there is just as much a music/art scene in SF as Seattle...
* and there is a huge cross section of nationalities in the SF area

to be honest, i spent a couple of days in SF once, and went walking around in an area of town i didn't belong - just two blocks from a major shopping and tourist area, looking for a gaming/book store actually, and there were barbwire fences around the small parking lots, newspapers blowing around, fires in 55-gal drums, and a bunch of people walking around with their collars up and wool caps down to where it was hard to make out their faces - i SWEAR i heard a pistol shot as i got myself back around the corner where i belonged...

gay pride rallies?? hell no...i thought i was gonna get mugged any minute!

you know, to be honest, the whole time i was in SF area, downtown, riding the trolley cars, and along the whole pier area (from the America's Cup team sailboat exhibit down to the market, seals, and Ghiradelli (sp?) factory), i never once saw an openly gay couple (holding hands, etc)

I got one: maybe Seattle was picked b/c it rains so much. It hard to have a "gritty" game in a city where its sunny and beautiful everyday.

ive lived in the bay area my entire life, and i think it would have done nicely. Youd have to have san fran as 'downtown' then san jose as the corporate/commercial area, and oakland as the z-zoneish area. I know my group has played there the few times we didnt run in seattle. Seattle is perfect because it is on the edge, i dont know how to justify it briefly (bitrunner gave a good rundown), but i know for me and all the folks ive ever played with the books made us believe it made sense.

also portland doesnt take in any cargo containers anymore just grain and cars (as i remember reading in the columbian), and after the nan takes over i doubt any dredging takes place, making unable (like in modern times) to compete with la and seattle. Though i also think those introverted elves would make it their port, but who knows why they didnt, they arent human they think differently.

edit: biyrunner is right, for one it is a plex nowadays, im from san jose and when go 'into town' for a friday night its over to sf, and i remember when a friend was in a free clinic over on 7th street when i went to see him there was a guy in broad daylight carrying a b+e tool (slim jim?) and carrying several car stereos by thewires. Also the elementary school a couple buildings down looked abandoned with its 10' fence with barbed wire on top, but i dont think it was (i remember the school sign having up to date events on it). Also you have bums up and down the street sleeping.

sf has gays sure, they are mainly in castro, and it also has tons of bums and junkies.

I'm not saying SF's too clean for any cyberpunk. As a couple people pointe dout, it has its share of nastay areas. I'm just saying that overall, it's too clean and friendly relative to a lot of more viable cities for dystopia. New York, for example, has an idiom SF simply cannot match.

Also, believe it or not, I've never seen Bullitt or the Dirty Harry movies. Though I must admit I only have interest in the former.

USA/UCAS wants Seattle because that is the only west coast port with ballistic missile submarines, not to mention the only west coast port with facilities to put a air craft carrier in drydock for overhauls/repairs. The Washington ports are a lot more important than the California ports for those reasons; if the UCAS wants to maintain a naval presense in the Pacific, they need the Brimmerton and Everett bases.

Also, its close to Russia, so you get the a lot of arms smuggling from the USSR, plus it's PacRim, so it makes sense for the Japanacorps and PPG to have a strong presense, plus theres volcanos, dreary weather, nearby wilderness and mountains (also good for smuggling, as well as convienient for some shaman characters). And, as its been said before, it's a lot easier to picture a dystopic world in Seattle than in sunny Cali.

I'm not sure I can agree with that last point. Dystopia may not suit a lot of Cali, but LA can be pretty damn gritty and very dystopic.

As far as people saying that California can be gritty, I think the main point is the fact that they have to protest that it is.

In roleplaying especially, perception can be a lot more important than the reality. If the common perception of Seattle is that it rains and is gloomy, it's a lot easier to say, "You're in Seattle" and for people to visualize gloom, than to say, "You're in San Fransisco" and spend a couple minutes explaining the gloom that they should be visualizing.

I'm just saying this in general, from a "I'm trying to sell roleplaying books to lots of people all over the place" point of view.

Well, Seattle was (not sure if it still is) the suicide capitol of the world. Maybe all that "negative energy" can have an expanded effect over time to encompass an entire city?

Well, seattle, is not the only port that can do anything. It is not much bigger than the ports in the middle or south of california. It doesn't have any bigger military presence than either of the major ports. And San Diego,people.


And yes,Seattle maybe a huge city.It may well grow up to be something akin to what say LA, or Oakland is. but as it is now,and the forceable future, just about any major city I can think of in California is as big as Seattle,and within an hours drive of another city just as big. In the "Bay area" You have San Jose, San Fran, Oakland, Sac town... LA county is just well 9,871,506 to Washington's 6,131,445, and Seattle's(City) 563,374.

By the way when people think of LA, they tend to think of the county,and not the city. The Cities are molded into one big blob.

Again, this not really only about the UCAS. I mean the japanese seem to think that they need to play on a level playing field in the north,when they could basically go to San Fran,and make their own rules. Aztlan owning San Diego, alones gives them a foot hold in the pacific. Then all the forgien nations putting up emdasies in it.

My point is this Seattle seems to be a second tir city compared to the things that UCAS gave up.and to what other powers are ignoring.

Well keep in mind the concept behind the game is that theyhad little choice. IT wasn't like the USA wanted to lose the Ghost Dance war, or sign the Treaty of Denver. It wasn't something they were shooting for.

It was forced on them.

Plus it sets up the need for shadows quite nicely. Isolated city state in a newly magical land....Mmmmm the possibilities are endless.

I just go with Seattle because I'm afraid that if I take the game to another location I'll accidentally violate canon material written about it and thus render my campaign null and void.

I'm sorry, but its no guess. What Adam said is the reason why. He's probably the most in the know person on here, as far as this thread goes. (Being the SR Webmaster, and friends with the line developer will do that. Bastard!:) )

the fact that the US kicked cali out of the union doesn't change the fact that the US lost access to the cali ports.

and Seattle isn't the biggest city in the world. Metropole is. Seattle is just the one that all of the game material focuses on; that doesn't necessarily mean that it's the most important city in the world, or anything.

In my game, I tell new players that the Indians didn't want Seattle because it was too polluted. They forced the UCAS to keep it. I feel this produces the right feel to the game.

MFB, wrong kind of big. The kind of big I am refering to is the amount of resources and interest being put onto that city by the powers that be.

Also note that Seattle is futher,and over more nations from the US/UCAS than CAliforina is. But again it is not wholey about the morons in DeeCee. It is also about the suits down in Mexico.I mean Aztlan, or Japan.

Seattle would be the UCAS launching point for any attempt to recover NAN lands or the CFS, which is why it's watched so closely.

If your suggesting that Aztechnology and the Japanacorps are spending more on Seattle than elsewhere, I think you have a perspective problem. SR3 mentions that Japan has developed much of the Third World; compared to their meger assets in Seattle look at Tsimshian, Kiliminjaro, Eastern Europe, and Southeast Asia. Aztechnology had far more invested in Denver than Seattle, not to mention their Spain assests and South American conflicts.

The idea is that the thing happening in Seattle are going on everywhere. Seattle is just the archetype city.

But the US/UCAS fought tooth and nail for it before they needed a staging ground to retake California.... And I I would think that California would make a much better staging ground to take the NAN,than Seattle.

When you go back and read NAG2RL, there was heavy political antagonism between Cali and the UCAS, and debates that raged between going on without California used the same moronic rational used to lock up all natives in concentration camps. Seriously, you have to accept that SR has politicians making horrible decisions for a 50 year period. Lucky that a few strategists figured out we needed to keep a Western port at all.

Heh, I am jealous in a way, but he earned it-I didn't. I wish I had the benefit of his circumstances, but I am fine with it. Really I am. No honest. I am absolutely not planning on asassinating Adam. Not even a little. Not even once. No honest....

I must haved typo'ed the smilie. I have horrible typing skills. 'Orrible!

<--- Loving this

(If y'all knew the way Paul and I used to 'round and 'round with Adam and Pistons on the old forums, you'd know a bit about this.)