I'd have thunk it. The lower velocity (9mm, .45 ACP) pistol JHPs penetrated well, because the composition of the drywall caused the rounds not to expand. The .357 Magnum hit the wall fast enough to deform regardless. This is very much a good thing, because it means it will also expand properly for example when it hits a human through heavy clothing, while certain JHP designs for lower velocity handguns might not. They might have considered it a good thing themselves, but that was overridden by the feeling of surprise.

Try the same with FMJs for the .45 ACP, 9x19mm and the .357 Magnum (if you can find any) and the results will be the opposite.

Whoever's been saying that buckshot over-penetrate compared to common loads with the other weapons mentioned there needs to get his head checked. Of course a .30" 40gr lead ball traveling at ~1300fps won't penetrate better than a .355" 120+gr jacketed lead bullet traveling at ~1250fps, especially when the latter fails to expand at all.

The results with the slug were mildly surprising to me, but they might not have been if The Box had been tested with a wider range of deforming handgun rounds first. It certainly penetrated a lot more walls than an expanding .357 Magnum, although the .357 (likely) expanded a lot more also.

In all fairness, those were some seriously heavy duty locks, and they were shot in the "center-mass". You might often get better results blowing off whatever the lock is hanging on.

Yep. Too bad this isn't really true in Shadowrun, where Heavy Pistols penetrate better than ARs.

It's kind of funny how no one seems to ever remember this. I see heavy duty locks all the time attached to stuff I could break through with not even a set of pliers.

Also, based on how much of that sheetrock stuff even a .22 will punch though, I'm glad I live somewhere where the interior walls are usually brick. I'll feel safe taking cover behind a wall next time I get into a gunfight at home

It goes without saying for you and me, but I'll include it anyway: Depending heavily on the material it hits, and especially with the 5.56x45mm on what weapon you fire them from (barrel length). The bullets will still fragment when fired at concrete walls at distances far greater than where they hold together against soft wood(-like) materials.

The FM I linked above includes tables of penetration for 7.62x51mm FMJ rounds (M80, I expect) fired from a GPMG (M60/M240). Since the round can penetrate only 18" of pine boards at 100 meters but 41" at 200 meters, the bullet is clearly still fragmenting at 100-150 meters. Somewhere before or around 200 meters is probably a good estimate against wooden construction materials. Interestingly, the penetration of the 7.62x51mm FMJs against cinder blocks tops out at 100 meters, even though I'd suspect the bullet is still fragmenting there.

The FM also says that 7.62x51mm FMJs are less affected by the close range fragmentation than 5.56x45mm FMJs, and penetration of pine boards with the former increases over threefold (13" to 41") from 25 meters to 200 meters. Maximum penetration against common structural materials for M16s and M249s is said to be 200 meters. You can draw some conclusions from that...

At less than 50 meters, 2" concrete or a brick veneer are rated as proof against 5.56x45mm FMJs, and the penetration of these materials only gets worse when you get closer than 50 meters. Single cinder blocks do not protect against anything really, it seems, and you must keep in mind that it's a rare interior wall that's made up of 10 or more inches of solid wood which you'd need to stop rifle rounds. Lethality through such obstacles will be significantly lower, however, since the bullet may well have fragmented.

Probably true, but I personally know of one situation where it definitely changed the guy's mind.

My brother once told me a story that he'd heard from an acquaintance who works in law enforcement.

It seems that the guy and his partner were called to the scene of a robbery, and the two perps were still hiding on the premises somewhere.

The first guy was found relatively easily--he was hiding behind a counter or something, and surrendered as soon as he realized that there were armed police officers present.

His erstwhile partner in crime, however, was nowhere to be seen.

One of the cops, determined not to take any unnecessary chances, retrieved the Remington 870 pump shotgun from their cruiser's trunk. Returning to the entrance of the building, he works the weapon's action, chambering a shell.

Whereupon the two of them hear someone they can't yet see call out:

"DON'T SHOOT! I'm COMIN' OUT!"

The unseen perp quickly makes himself visible, drops his weapon, and is arrested, searched, and handcuffed.

Moral of the story:

Almost anyone who watches television (especially police shows) recognizes the sound of a pump-action shotgun being readied for action, and nobody in his right mind wants to be on the wrong end of a 10- or 12-gauge shotgun, particularly if it's loaded with 00 Buckshot or Slugs.





(And *NO*, my brother is *NOT* the cop in question--he's a computer programmer. Our folks would kill him for trying it, considering how much trouble they went to to keep us alive over the years. Besides, neither of us could pass the physical. )

--Foreigner

The people who only know the sound from police shows, movies and computer games will tend to be utterly ignorant of the differences in terminal effect between birdshot, buckshot and slugs, though. For all they know, shotguns blow huge holes into you no matter what, and make you fly backwards in a huge arc.

Also,

I blame video games Shotguns in FPS games tend to be (at least in earlier FPS games) the mini BFG. You use shotguns to good effect on space demons, aliens, zombies, etc. Whether or not they'd actually do as much 'in real life' versus such, I sure as hell don't know As I've only got popular culture/TV/Movie/bullcrap type background in it.

As for racking a shotgun...heh in SR I imagine my character would like it if his unseen target racked their shotgun. It'd give me a nice perception mod to find them and put a blade through their nostril or something.

~J

Actually, those were candy ass locks but you are correct, most people put on too heavy a lock. Shoot the hasp off.

Also, the rifle can take off the lock just fine as long as you hit the right place (the bearings) located just left and right of center mass about 1/3 of the way down. Either one will allow the shackle to come free. This is probably impractical however.

A shotgun will not really touch any really heavy lock (especially shackless ones) without special ammo.

Nah, all shooting weapons make you fly back in huge arc
I have heard about birdshot, but don't know differences between last two. Then again, weapons are quite rare in our country.

Maybe I should go and rewatch Leon, best movie of this type

Mmm, science.

~J

So that whole class of shot (#9 through BB for lead, through T for steel) is called "bird shot"? Now that I (obviously) didn't know. Ignore that bit from my earlier message then.