I recently played in my friend's game in which we ran into a priest/bounty hunter who was working for the Catholic church. Knowing what MitS states about the origin of power, being just another form of the same magic source that all magicians tap into, we all assumed that there was nothing particularly weird about his magic other than his trappings. It wasn't until we came into contact with these ethereal angelic guardians of his that things got a little strange. Having three magicians in our group (mage, wujen, and me the houngan), and each of our characters with a decent to above average knowledge base on spirits and elementals, we thought it would be a cinch to figure out what type of spirit this was.

Well, as it turns out, the GM was writing these creatures in the game as something outside of the rules. Non-canon, no biggie. They were described well and their powers weren't broken. They were just divine... not magical. It struck me that I've never introduced the divine into Shadowrun. Mainly because it doesn't seem like the place for it, despite the fact that religion plays a role in the game world.

So, I guess my question to all of you out there is have you run across or GM'ed in the divine, in any form? I don't necessarily just mean a Judeo-Chistian God, but any divine form at all (Allah, Krishna, Greek/Roman Mythos, Norse gods, etc.). And for that matter, have you run across or GM'ed anything having to do with demons and devils or Old Scratch himself? Keep in mind that I'm not asking whether you believe in such things; rather, have they ever played a role in your games?

I've never been in a game that featured divine powers or their agents. At least none that the GM ever let me know about.

I've never seen it but I figure you could introduce the "divine" w/o any home brew. Isn't there fluff text about elementals manifesting in whatever form the summoning mage "believes" they would manifest?

Sweet. Looks like its time to start summoning air elementals that look like Sydnee Steele...

The scope of the game does not include questions of divinity or spirituality. Unless you base an entire gaming system around the divinity of beings (In Nomine, the pantheons of various RPG systems, etc.), it is difficult to introduce such elements into a game, especially a game like Shadowrun which is based on real world cultures and recognizes the legitimacy of religions and the divine in all its trappings.

My first reaction is to dismiss the non-canon "divine angel things" as part of someone's attempt to introduce elements of another RPG system into the game, one that the GM favors (DnD, In Nomine, etc.). But then I think about things that ARE canon that don't have stats (Immortal Elves, certain Great Dragons, Faeries, the Shasta Deer, Totems, Initiate Group Avatars), and I shrug and go "meh... whatever your GM wants. It's his game." It could be in reaction to the fact that your group is a walking background count (3 mages? Sheesh.)... the GM is trying to find ideas that will challenge your magic-heavy group.

Personally, I like respecting the diversity of the setting and my group's spirituality... I feel that personifying the divine in game stats cheapens the value of spirituality (in both real life and the context of roleplaying) and reduces it to "yet another Threat". Is Heaven simply a metaplane that you can find in an Astral Quest? If it is, my character is SO there...

This isn't to say that religion isn't a good enemy/ally/concept to use in a Shadowrun game... it's a great theme to use. There is a character in the Sam Verner novels who is a monk working for the Order of St. Sylvester, who personifies how religion works in the Sixth world... even in a world of magic, faith has a place, and it is still ineffable and wonderful. By the same token, there are always those who will die for what they believe in, more so in the Sixth World than ours. My current Shadowrun campaign has introduced the Danites (based off of a shadowtalk comment in "Shadows of North America" and the version that is in Arthur Conan Doyle's "A Study in Scarlet"), a militant sect of Mormons who believe they are above sin. In the past, we've used the "Idol" totems as the European/Egyptian/Middle Eastern gods (i.e. Athena is one of the many aliases of the Wise Warrior). On another note, I think the most difficult religions to separate from magic are the Native American religions, as there is an entire magical tradition based mostly on shamanistic magic... certainly it blurs the line between what is spiritual and what is magical.

the Gencon Indy tournament this last year dealt with the forces of the catholic church, IIRC...the title of the tourney was "Kyrie Elaison" (and it did not refer to a Mr. Mister song...)

I used the Primal Order capsystem once on top of Shadowrun for a "throw away" session. It was a blast.

In my own game, as a smal inside joke, the Catholics are the BIG good guys. They have it all right, to a point-most of the Catholics in my game tend to always be cookie cutter nice people. We find it all rather humorus.

My lovely bride is running a game now around demons, although the exact nature of them isn't clear.

I *LOVE* to put religious themes into my games. I tend to do a lot of Catholic/Pagan stuff especially. I also tend to draw heavily on other ancient religions (Sumerian, Mayan, Native American). After all, the Horrors are linked to the Aztec religion, and since I like the horrors, it's almost necessary to bring the religion in with it as a cultural basis. Thanks to my horribly fictional version of the necronomicon, I have enough information to bring in the Babylonian/Sumerian gods as well. Ancient magic and spells are almost ALWAYS religious in my game, somehow.

and the reason for that is that most any magic thats described in the old texts and storys are centerd on priests and so on, all the way back to ancient egypt. only in modern times have the philosopher mage shown its head, most recently in the harry potter series.

its an idea straight out of d&d, hell gandalf and his kind is the blueprint for that kind of magic. still, if you read sillmarillion there is a aftertaste of religion of much of it.

but still, can one realy have magic without it getting a aftertaste of religion? given that magic is often centerd around rituals and symbolism, and in essence belife in what a person is doing, how can one avoid it turning into a religion of sorts?

the hermetic tradition gets its name from the alcymists of europe right?
given that any form of technology will be seen as magic to someone that is religious and uneducated one can guess that the magicans where in reality alcymists that was walking around with small smokebombs and similar in secret pockets, and had trained themselfs in the art of palming items. basicly the forfather to todays illusionists. but in addition to useing their skills to entertain they used them to grant themselfs protection and mystery.

Thankfully, I think the developers left a nice space for you to drop in divine elements, should you want, or not.

I just finished up a crossover WoD game that dealt with the 'end of the world' as it were, and the divine implications therein. I didn't choose Shadowrun as the setting because I would have had to do a lot more working and twisting to see how divinity interacted with magic and cybertech. Not to mention all the theological questions I would feel I would need to answer, if just for my own internal consistancy: why show up at the time of the campaign? Where has the divine been in the meantime? Why is it being so terribly subtle about things? Other systems provide a lot more usable information for the above. Shadowrun would have to be from scratch.

Though that would certainly be an interesting campaign to see. If anyone has/does run a Shadowrun game with heavy elements of divinity, I'd like to hear about it.

Interesting. I think I've always stayed away from religious overtones due to the diversity of players in my group. I would hate for a kick ass game to have a sour note in it due to someone's beliefs, or lack thereof, conflicting with the game's story. So, while there is the inclusion of religious elements, I keep the divine out of the game, if that makes sense. Magic is magic is magic. Nothing is holy or evil as far as my game is concerned.

The game I play in however, tends to go the other direction. And yes, we are a magic heavy group. It makes for some hairy encounters, but normally the GM tailors the run to our fortes. Nothing is ever out of balance... really.

I've really not had anyone complain about religion in any of my games. The 'bad guy' religions are ancient ones no one practices, and the rest I do my research on beforehand. The Catholic priest is a good guy in his eyes. He knows his stuff, and he does well by Catholic standards. The gypsy is good in his eyes. He knows his stuff, and does well by the Romani standards. When they meet each other, they don't get along especially well, but I try not to portray either religion as better or worse than the other. I try to portray them as they try to portray themselves.

Of course, there are always fallen Catholics and reformed Romani, but that's a different story. Those are character flaws, and good players will recognize it's a reflection of the character and not the religion.

Hmm, I don't know about the "good players" synopsis. I have one player who roleplays better than most people that I've run across, has the rules down tight, and almost always makes the game better just because of his presence. However, the guy hates God and any religion which requires its practitioners to be subserviant to an almight power. Thus, when deific elements are introduced into his fantasy time, he about busts a nut with his sighs and rolling of eyes. It detracts a bit from what would otherwise be a rockin' game.

This is the main reason why I sculpt my games towards the tastes of the group and not attempt for them to be okay with my lenient tastes towards an appreciation of all world religions. When a player's disgust of something is on par with the disdain that people might show towards other disturbing elements (rape comes to mind), its best just to not go there. I don't think less of him as a player, I just write around this hot button.

If I ever end up playing again, I have a real hankerin' to play a young catholic priest who runs a small mission / soup kitchen in the barrens, who happens to be an conjurer adept. Banishin' demons and summonin' guardian angels. Plus it would be very, very interesting to have such a moral individual around, given the proclivities of my players...

If nothing else, he's sure to show up as an NPC at some point.

edit: when religious themes show up in my game, my players love it. We all kinda miss the mysticism and religious overrtones of a good fantasy game - not enough to go back to D&D for it, though.

According to Critters, they resemble mule deer. Highly intelligent creatures and linked with the forest and her inhabitants. It says that they may be forest spirits, free spirits or shapechangers themselves, if the GM decides.

Well, let's think on this one rather deeply. If we were to say that one type of religion is right and the other is wrong, then what do we judge them by? I really have no problem with putting divine powers into any game, but you have to remember that it could be argued that that Bible is nothing but a set of fantasy stories, put together in the form of a book. That they are no more right or wrong than the other books about the Roman gods.

So, I would be asking your GM, why would the cult of Jesus have any more right to be divine than the fallower of Crow?

Funny thing. I've just read[EDIT: WROTE] a SR short story (in polish only ). I want to emerge Angels in similiar manner as in the movie "God's Army".
And Idea of free spirits in angel-like form is not that what I'm looking for. IMO in that matter SR cannon is too strict :cry:

Yes, should the GM rule that way. Thus confirming that the one true God in Shadowrun IS the GM.

double that of Path of the Righ.

And just to re-clarify, the GM in question wasn't trying to evangelize to us. In fact, the guy is a proud atheist. He does however like to read about religion/spirituality and include it in his stories. He thinks of them as myth and includes them in Shadowrun as real sources of power the way other myths have become real in the 6th world. Maybe my original post came off sounding like he was preaching to us or something along that vein. It was anything but.

The First board I played on dealt heavily with Dieties ( both Judeaic and Pagan ) and thier Agents, angels, demons, cleric's, etceteray. Although the Deities didn't have Stats, Angels and Demons did. Combat with an Angel was Feared, and at all times avoided (due to the fact that GM used them to do away with characters he personally didn't like ) And Demons weren't that hard to defeat with enough faith, ammo, and research time to find thier weakness. I also use this system as a GM and I will explain why as it was explained to me.

In the beginning there was IT. It was, and knew Everything. It got bored, and Lonely, and decided to Change. And so, They were created. One was Happy, and Liked this concept called Creating. The other was Angry, and didn't like anything at all, it especially didn't like One. And so we have a constant struggling War between the forces of Creation, and those of Destruction, in which every single engagement hinges on the choices of shadowrunners.

don't tell me I've locked this topic up by saying anything Taboo.

The rest of using this approach to the situation is clarifying what dieties are good, and which are evil. The Judeaic/Catholic God is better as being personified by The Creator, but it should be understood by GM and Characters alike that No Direct Intervention can be allowed. If the Characters want to try asking for intervention by any of the Lesser Dieties such as Thor, or Odin, that should be allowed.

Also I ask my Characters to Pick a Faith out of the Dieties and Demigods, DnD 3rd Edition. That way if the Character get's Killed, I can still run the Character by having it meet the diety they worship while thier buddies attempt to get their body to a Necromancer in time for ressurrection. During said meeting the Character should work on proving thier right to enter the Diety's "heaven" afterlife instead of being sent to <dramatic drumming> hell.

a bit of a Historic Note. Odin, the Father God of the Norse Pantheon is the one and only "pagan" god whose domain is Thought and Knowledge"