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James McMurray
How many people here use battlemats?

And of those people, how do you use the fog of war rules (observations as simple or complex actions)?

My group uses battlemats, and so far we've ignored the observation rules. But I'd like to incorporate them, and just don't know how to do it with all of the minis already on the table.
Pthgar
What the heck is a battlemat? We use hand drawn maps with little paper circles and stars to represent people.
James McMurray
In case your question was serious: a battle mat is a canvas sheet you can find at most gaming stores. Some have a square grid and others have a hex grid. You use the mat and miniatures to play out a combat. Use overhead markers to draw the different terrain, buildings, etc. The overhead markers wash off with water, and you're ready to do another scene.

With the stars, how do you know which runner can see which star without observing, and vice versa?
Pthgar
Is battlemat a brand name or generic?

I have two maps, one for the players and one for me (sometimes mine is just in my head). If there's an area that the runner's can't see clearly, I don't put down a marker. When they walk into the area I place the marker on the map.

Occasionally I get lazy and just put out all the markers. That's where the role-playing comes in. The players have to make their characters react as if they didn't know the bad guys were there.
algcs
We use a white board.
James McMurray
Battlemat is a generic name. Here's a few places to get one online. This was just a quick google search, so its almost gauranteed that a little shopping around will get you a cheaper deal.

http://shop.store.yahoo.com/gsonline/larchesbatw1.html

http://www.gameslore.co.uk/acatalog/Produc...s_Mats_168.html

http://www.scifigenre.com/itemDetail.aspx?...M&nItemID=18409
James McMurray
QUOTE (algcs)
We use a white board.

So how do you maintain the fog of war with the minis, circles, or whatever out on the board?
tisoz
When I used to use minis, I used the SR map pack and the maps from DMZ. I also used large pieces of cardboard from the boxes paper towel and TP are shipped in to draw some standard (like apartment, or restaurant) and recurring (bar) locations. Also drew some of the maps from the mods.

I used different colors for different types of theings like doors, windows, furniture, and plants. And different width of black markers for wall barrier rating approximations.
tisoz
QUOTE (James McMurray)
So how do you maintain the fog of war with the minis, circles, or whatever out on the board?

Cover parts of the map, put a marker in place of a mini until it is identified.
Solstice
what he's talking about is using the hexes or squares on a battlemat for distance and movement. He isn't talking about drawing out floorplans. Jeez, must be a new influx of RPG "newbs". rotfl.gif

We use battlemats but we haven't used them for SR yet. It is much more critical to have them for AD&D because of the movement/combat system.
James McMurray
I'm not sure who the he is in that, but if its me, then yes, we do draw out the floor plans on them.
Solstice
well sure, but your not just using the battlemat as glorified cardboard. Your obviously using it because it's grided.
tisoz
The SR maps had asteric like things to mark distance. My, almost free, newbie-type cardboard had a scale in the corner, like modern road maps. Anyone wanting to know how far measured the distance with their pencil, gripped the pencil at the mark and compared it to the scale.
algcs
QUOTE (James McMurray)
QUOTE (algcs @ Feb 1 2005, 11:49 AM)
We use a white board.

So how do you maintain the fog of war with the minis, circles, or whatever out on the board?

We only draw it after you see it. And we tend to wing the distances and stuff when we draw it. If you start using player vs character knowledge then it is the GM's discression on what to do. We aren't playing Necromunda
U_Fester
QUOTE (algcs)
We only draw it after you see it. And we tend to wing the distances and stuff when we draw it. If you start using player vs character knowledge then it is the GM's discression on what to do.

I like using a whiteboard on the table because the players get a better idea what the area can look like. Only takes a minute to draw an alleyway, with buildings/doors and such as well as an intersection where cars are. We do use figurines and base the distant of the size of the figurines. This way movement is still limited to racial limits.
Nikoli
For a while I did printed battle maps, to standard figuring scale (1" = 5') then put down a faded gride on the map in 1 meter increments. then I would print them out at 100% and tape them together. Let me tell you, after doing 2 or three of those, I was sorely wanting for a plotter.
Pthgar
Well, I don't use Battlemats but when I draw out my maps I use graph paper, two sizes one for moving vehicle scale and one for normal "on foot" scale.

As for being a newb, well I've been playing various sytems (Traveller, White Wolf, Gurps, Earthdawn, and SR) for about 15 years, but I only played D&D once 17 years ago in middle school. Didn't care for it. So I guess I'm a newb.
GrinderTheTroll
We use a large (48"x108") mat too, and I've always been tempted to use a ruler and let players convert their movement to inches versus the 1m squares, but it's easy enough just using the pre-laid-out grid. Rulers do come in handy for diagonal runs or measuring long distances across our rather large playing surface at times.

Pthgar
We play on a glass top table that perfectly fits HeroClix maps. We've thought about using Clix maps and figures for SR, but then where would we roll all our dice. smile.gif
U_Fester
Someone had posted in another thread about using the ones form Chessex Battle Mats. They are soft mats and can use water based markers on them for cleanup. Is a much better alternative than drawing out map grids.
Pthgar
I've found that maps are usefull but not truly crucial to SR. I have done runs without them. If I want to do a creepy-horror run I just hand out graph paper and let the team make their own map as I describe the setting they're moving through. Their own imagination fills in all the little details and makes it that much more scary.
Pthgar
Here is a cool little utility that I use to make different types of graph paper. It does hex, logarithmic, Bee-cell, even musical staffs.

Graph Paper
The Grifter
Hell, we always just used Fritos as the bad guys and different colored Gummi Bears as the PCs. Bad guy gets killed, eat the corresponding Frito. Saves confusion.
hahnsoo
We teleconference to play Shadowrun (three of our players, including myself, live apart from the rest of the group). We use TeamSpeak for talking and conversation and a proprietary Whiteboard software for drawing and manipulating graphics. It's a little more clunky than using an actual whiteboard or battlemat, but works for our purposes just fine.
James McMurray
I see a lot of people that use mats or something similar, but not a lot of responses on how to maintain the fog of war. How do those of you who use mats decide when to put a mini out for an enemy. What if some characters know they're there and others don't?

I know I can just rely on the players to keep IC and OOC knowledge seperate, and my group is pretty good at that. But I'm hoping to find a method that avoids that as much as possible.
Crimson Jack
QUOTE (James McMurray)
How many people here use battlemats?

And of those people, how do you use the fog of war rules (observations as simple or complex actions)?

My group uses battlemats, and so far we've ignored the observation rules. But I'd like to incorporate them, and just don't know how to do it with all of the minis already on the table.

Sometimes I use a battlemat. I don't like how it makes everyone start playing like its a D&D game though... so I normally opt for a dry erase board, which can quickly be modified for 'fog of war' effects.

I have a problem with one player who reacts to everything on map, regardless of whether his character would even know about it. For example, he'll notice that there are three guards on the opposite side of a building that have just engaged half of his team and prior to them radioing it in to him, he'll start heading in that direction. Most of the players actually roleplay out their situations, but even then, when they 'see' something that really only another player can 'see', they sometimes make slightly jaded decisions.

On a whole, its not too much of a problem.
SuperSpy
You could always set up a coordinate system for the grid on your map. If one character sees a new enemy that the rest of the team wouldn't see, you could just pass a note to the observing character with a note that contains the coordinates of the enemy. Once the observer properly relays his or her findings to the rest of the group, you go ahead and place the miniature.
James McMurray
That's a cool idea! It'll add more lagtime to our combats, but its worth a shot. Thanks!
GrinderTheTroll
QUOTE (James McMurray)
How many people here use battlemats?

And of those people, how do you use the fog of war rules (observations as simple or complex actions)?

My group uses battlemats, and so far we've ignored the observation rules. But I'd like to incorporate them, and just don't know how to do it with all of the minis already on the table.

I'll hold players to what they would probably be doing unless they had some indication of what was going on in the Fog areas. Engaged players need to call for back-up or I'll let players make perception tests to see if they would have some idea.

Depending on the situation, seperating players sometimes helps.
Pthgar
Coordinate system. Very good. I see other uses for that, like inderect fire and area spell splash damage. Very good.
Solstice
we just don't draw in or put out the miniatures until the PC would be encountering them or sensing them in some way. We also have a metagamer guy who will use tactics like he can see the whole map even though his character can't.
KarmaInferno
My gaming group used to use action figures like GI Joes if we wanted to do this kinda thing. Just broke out whatever toys and pillows and stuff we needed to make terrain. Tape measure for ranges and LOS.

Been a while since we did that, though. We have gotten very lazy.


-karma
Crimson Jack
GI Joes would make for a huge battle area (if to scale). eek.gif
Fortune
The later variety are a lot smaller than the old 11" ones.
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