Hi. If a mage casts a Mindprobe spell on someone would that person be able to determine if they are being effected by the Mindprobe spell.
The spell description states this is a mana spell. Would that mean a person would know it was being used against him unless he has astral perception or a detection spell against hostile intent on his body??
How would you guys handle this??
The character's intention was to use a Mindprobe spell to verify whether the intelligence a person was giving the character was valid, truthful, and complete.
Full Version: Mindprobe spell and detection question
If you notice, the Spell Design section of Magic in the Shadows suggests that Mindprobe is a Touch-range spell. I'd consider that the best way to balance it.
~J
~J
I believe you know you're being mindprobed. I believe it's SOTA'64 that has a more subtle spell that, instead of raiding and pillaging their mind, a single idea/concept drifts through their mind and gauges their response to it. Usually not major enough to tip them off, they just wonder why they thought of that all of a sudden.
The first situation would only apply if two people are Mindprobing the target at the same time (which would suck big-time for the target). I'm guessing that neither caster would know the effect of the other Mindprobe (they are digging in different areas of memory).
Edit: Whoops, you were saying something different, just in an awkward way. I misread the post to mean detecting someone ELSE'S mindprobe by using a mindprobe. I thought it was redundant.
A target of a Mindprobe, according to the novels, short stories, and examples, always knows he/she is being mind probed at the time of the probe (the more blatant examples call it "mind rape"). Mind Probe is an obvious and possibly traumatizing experience. However, this doesn't mean you couldn't erase that memory with Laes, a control manipulation spell, or brainwashing simsense.
You would never know if intelligence was true, relevant, and accurate... you'd only know what the target remembers in his/her own memory, which isn't necessarily true, relevant, and accurate information.
There are other spells, such as Analyze Truth and Compel Truth that would allow you to determine the truthfulness (at least, from the perspective of the target) of statements. Note that casting ANY of these spells at a usual meet is considered unprofessional and bad form... a Johnson will turn you down for even thinking about it. They're great for coercive interrogation, though. Especially if you slap on some Tranq patches and cause some physical wounds to kick up the wound modifiers...
Edit: Whoops, you were saying something different, just in an awkward way. I misread the post to mean detecting someone ELSE'S mindprobe by using a mindprobe. I thought it was redundant.
A target of a Mindprobe, according to the novels, short stories, and examples, always knows he/she is being mind probed at the time of the probe (the more blatant examples call it "mind rape"). Mind Probe is an obvious and possibly traumatizing experience. However, this doesn't mean you couldn't erase that memory with Laes, a control manipulation spell, or brainwashing simsense.
You would never know if intelligence was true, relevant, and accurate... you'd only know what the target remembers in his/her own memory, which isn't necessarily true, relevant, and accurate information.
There are other spells, such as Analyze Truth and Compel Truth that would allow you to determine the truthfulness (at least, from the perspective of the target) of statements. Note that casting ANY of these spells at a usual meet is considered unprofessional and bad form... a Johnson will turn you down for even thinking about it. They're great for coercive interrogation, though. Especially if you slap on some Tranq patches and cause some physical wounds to kick up the wound modifiers...
I run it in my games as being obvious and painful to the target, mostly because I think it improves game balance to make characters *talk* to NPCs.
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| If you notice, the Spell Design section of Magic in the Shadows suggests that Mindprobe is a Touch-range spell. I'd consider that the best way to balance it. ~J |
The touch is because you are giving the sense to a target (touch). All of the Detection spells are range of touch, so in theory, you could "give" sense to your street sam. The range at which the new sense (aka mind probe) is the Caster's Magic attribute by the force of the spell. The caster "keeps" the initial results of the sorcery test and those are used by anyone using the new sense on someone. P192 SR3 Detection Spells. It also says a person being targeted by the new sense gets a resistance roll "whether they are aware of the spell or not". A person being mind probed wouldn't know they were being mind probed unless there was someone there that would notice the person using the "enhanced" sense via astral perception. It is a damn fine spell when subtlety is required, but not the end all and be all. (Drain S, limited range, One piece of info per initiative pass), but it can be one of the better "role playing" of the spells when used properly.
| QUOTE (Moon-Hawk) |
| I believe you know you're being mindprobed. I believe it's SOTA'64 that has a more subtle spell that, instead of raiding and pillaging their mind, a single idea/concept drifts through their mind and gauges their response to it. Usually not major enough to tip them off, they just wonder why they thought of that all of a sudden. |
That's a pretty good argument, but it shows that sometimes the left hand doesn't know what the right one is doing when it comes to developing a Role Playing Game. It seems they didn't read their own spell type description when creating Word Recognition as it flies in the face of their other Detection Spells, (Cast at a target in line of sight instead of giving someone the "sense" Are you going to touch your target to use clairvoyance on them. No. You touch the person you want to "become" clairvoyant. If anything, they F'd up Word Recognition. (But, at a lower Drain it could be used the way SR3 describes Detection spells and still be useful. Plus in both MITS and SR3, they say Detection spells can only be cast on Willing Subjects. Are you going to ask someone if you could mind probe him or Word Recognition on him. Who would say yes to that! Hell read the description of Detection spells in the spell design section of MITS. Hey, if you are developing a new spell for Shadowrun, it's your game go ahead, but they broke all sorts of their own rules with that one.
Whoever wrote up that spell agrees with some that Mind Probe is noticable, but the original rules state otherwise.
| QUOTE (TeOdio @ Feb 3 2005, 06:04 PM) |
| The touch is because you are giving the sense to a target (touch). All of the Detection spells are range of touch, so in theory, you could "give" sense to your street sam. The range at which the new sense (aka mind probe) is the Caster's Magic attribute by the force of the spell. The caster "keeps" the initial results of the sorcery test and those are used by anyone using the new sense on someone. P192 SR3 Detection Spells. It also says a person being targeted by the new sense gets a resistance roll "whether they are aware of the spell or not". A person being mind probed wouldn't know they were being mind probed unless there was someone there that would notice the person using the "enhanced" sense via astral perception. It is a damn fine spell when subtlety is required, but not the end all and be all. (Drain S, limited range, One piece of info per initiative pass), but it can be one of the better "role playing" of the spells when used properly. |
The range, according to the spell description, also has to be within LOS (a small distinction, but an important one).
Whether or not the Mind Probe is obvious is up for grabs. Traditionally in Shadowrun literature (including the short story at the beginning of SR2), a Mind Probe is an intense digging into someone's consciousness and mind that is obvious to the target being probed. It is as unnerving as Dragon Thoughtspeak.
It was also mentioned in the SR2 Grimoire that Mind Probe was a special exception to their normally structured magic design rules. No such distinction was added in Magic in the Shadows, of course.
They do call it PROBE for some reason. Good point Hansoo. I personally don't see it as that big a deal if they don't notice it. People can't notice the other detection spells being used against them.
Another possibility is when you dig into a person's memory, you also force the person to relive the memory, which may or may not be pleasant. If you don't go too deep, they may just think it was a random flashback or thought. The deeper you dig, the worse the target potentially feels about being probed. Eventually, the target would know that he's under some sort of magical influence. Unless he was on some psychotropic drugs or BTLs...
| QUOTE |
| n theory, you could "give" sense to your street sam. |
Could you give sense to some of my group's? They seem to have been born without any...
| QUOTE (DrJest) |
| Could you give sense to some of my group's? They seem to have been born without any... |
Come on, the Common Sense edge is only 2 points!
| QUOTE (DrJest @ Feb 3 2005, 06:39 PM) | ||
Could you give sense to some of my group's? They seem to have been born without any... |
Oops I meant "the" sense, but that's pretty damn funny. It's funny when the characters are equipped so well to make the right choice, but still make the wrong one. Sometimes they surprise you.
Player: So there is a couple of guards about to come through that door with a mage, eh.
Me: Yep. It's a good thing you've got a spotter on the other side.
Player: Well, I'm invisible, I guess I could try and blow by them after they open the door and try to run through the lobby.
Me: THey do have a mage.
Player: Well, I do have friends out there...
Me: Make up your mind, head back down the hall or wait till the door opens to bolt.
Player:I.... go run back down the hall.
Me: You come back to the T section where you haven't yet gone down the left hall.
Player: Damn I forgot about that.
Me: Give yourself a Karma point for not going through the door.
| QUOTE (TeOdio) |
| They do call it PROBE for some reason. Good point Hansoo. I personally don't see it as that big a deal if they don't notice it. People can't notice the other detection spells being used against them. |
And since when are probes not intrusive? Can you think of a subtle probe?
| QUOTE |
| Note that casting ANY of these spells at a usual meet is considered unprofessional and bad form... a Johnson will turn you down for even thinking about it. |
Of course, the Johnson only knows that you're merely thinking about using Mind Probe if he's probing you himself.
Right, 'cause I stupid Johnson didn't bring astral support when meeting an Awakened team...
Seriously, the kinds of teams that have Mind Probe and Control Thoughts don't get referred to lowly Js who aren't ready for them. At the prices such a team can demand (in a world where Mind Probe is unfelt), only those who can afford to protect themselves against such teams will be able to afford hiring them.
Seriously, the kinds of teams that have Mind Probe and Control Thoughts don't get referred to lowly Js who aren't ready for them. At the prices such a team can demand (in a world where Mind Probe is unfelt), only those who can afford to protect themselves against such teams will be able to afford hiring them.
| QUOTE (SirKodiak) |
| Of course, the Johnson only knows that you're merely thinking about using Mind Probe if he's probing you himself. |
Am I alone in being disturbed by the thought of a Johnson 'probing' me?
| QUOTE (Fortune) | ||
Am I alone in being disturbed by the thought of a Johnson 'probing' me? |
Oh, come on. Johnsons "probe" Shadowrun teams all the time.
What?
Heh I had a ludicrously evil johnson use control emotions on the teams mage once time because he was the only one with enough essence to notice the karmic reek.
It was pretty funny:
"roll essence..."
"You feel really really bad about this guy, he is totally creeping you out"
"roll willpower + spell defense..."
"you are completely ambivalent about him, he is just like any other johnson"
heh.
It was pretty funny:
"roll essence..."
"You feel really really bad about this guy, he is totally creeping you out"
"roll willpower + spell defense..."
"you are completely ambivalent about him, he is just like any other johnson"
heh.
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