Full Version: Native American Dragons
In the shadowrun material, there are Chinese dragons, Japanese dragons, Aztec dragons, Welsh dragons, ect. But does anyone remember seeing a dragon with a distinctly Native American feel to it?
So, we're discounting Feathered Serpents as Native American?
| QUOTE (Dizzo Dizzman) |
| In the shadowrun material, there are Chinese dragons, Japanese dragons, Aztec dragons, Welsh dragons, ect. But does anyone remember seeing a dragon with a distinctly Native American feel to it? |
Arguably, one can say Hestaby is more "Amerind" than the other Greats. And remember, the Aztecs are Native Americans as well, and they were a great cultural influence in their geographic area.
You don't see many dragons or dragon-like creatures in Native American myths and legends, although there are a few. One can argue that the dragon template has largely been supplanted by Snake or Lizard. Anyone got any Dragon stories they'd like to share?
My bad! I know Aztec's are Native American. I was refering to the cultures of the Lakota, Dokata, Shoshone, Mohawk, ect.
The answer is mostly no, but then again, many of those dragons are simply intelligent serpents (nagas perhaps?) or manifested deities. It's possible that some of the fresh water serpents (Chelan Lake?) are really Leviathans (water dragons).
And then we know that some Western dragons set up lairs in North America long ago, such as Ghostwalker and his Denver home, so they may have driven out the Native dragons.
And then we know that some Western dragons set up lairs in North America long ago, such as Ghostwalker and his Denver home, so they may have driven out the Native dragons.
Was Arleesh's human form Amerindian in the module "Bottled Demon"? It's been so long since I've played it, I can't remember exactly...
| QUOTE (hahnsoo @ Feb 3 2005, 08:29 PM) | ||
Arguably, one can say Hestaby is more "Amerind" than the other Greats. And remember, the Aztecs are Native Americans as well, and they were a great cultural influence in their geographic area. You don't see many dragons or dragon-like creatures in Native American myths and legends, although there are a few. One can argue that the dragon template has largely been supplanted by Snake or Lizard. Anyone got any Dragon stories they'd like to share? |
The Plumed Serpent made its way north. Several Pueblo Indian tribes have one in their religious beliefs. Deity? Sure. Still a dracoform fitting the concepts in SR.
| QUOTE (Kanada Ten) |
And then we know that some Western dragons set up lairs in North America long ago, such as Ghostwalker and his Denver home |
*cough*Dunkelzahn*cough*
Besides, they are all European conceptions of dracoforms. That they laired in North America is just good fortune.
Hmm. What about Ogopogo? Would that count as a Native American Leviathan?
Edit: Apparently Ogopogo was described by the Salish Indians in their mythology. There are various resources on the web that describe Salish legends of the Ogopogo lake monster.
Edit: Apparently Ogopogo was described by the Salish Indians in their mythology. There are various resources on the web that describe Salish legends of the Ogopogo lake monster.
I don't know about a Leviathan, but tubing Lake Okanagan (iirc) is more fun as a child when you think something might eat you at any second.
Actually, a Leviathan sounds just about right for Ogopogo. Anyone wonder why they're alwayse in lakes?
| QUOTE |
| The Plumed Serpent made its way north. Several Pueblo Indian tribes have one in their religious beliefs. Deity? Sure. Still a dracoform fitting the concepts in SR. |
Yep, there's a lot of overlap with Mesomerican beliefs and those of the Amerindians like Pueblo, Hopi, Zuni, etc. Many of them share the same root language with the Aztecs and have nearly indentical major myths.
As for the Amerindian tribes without close Mesoamerican links, dragon appearances are rare, if not absent, in myth. And like has been mentioned, it was usually in the form of lake serpents, which would probably qualify as leviathans. Actually, I think if you wanted to add a dragon into the Amerindian nations in SR for your game, it'd be good to use a leviathan, as they are underused in SR anyway.
And yeah, I believe both Arleesh and Hestaby have "played Native" and appeared as Amerinds in their human forms at some point.
That being said, I don't expect to ever see a GD in Pueblo, even to the extent of downplaying Celedyr's interest in and relationship with the Pueblo Underground.
I don't think those tribes had dragon legends. Their legendary creatures were mostly idealized versions of real animals, AKA totems.
If you consider giant, horned serpents that aggressively pursued humans "idealized versions of real animals" then sure. The Lakota's Unhcegila is very dragon like. But, yes, most of those tribes Dizzo named have animal-man combos, not typical dragons.
Well, it doesn't matter anyway since the few tribes I can mention (e.g., San Ildefonso Pueblo) were pretty much written off by Nigel Findley 15 years ago.
And the more I look back, the more I think he was insane.
And the more I look back, the more I think he was insane.
Well, you could chalk it up as the natives were in an area where fewer dragons lived, and that they largely kept less records than other people.It could be that the area with dragon stories were areas with more,or maybe less down time hunting. Maybe the totems don't much like dragons?
Could be. Could just be that no other GD wanted to take up residence on the same continent as where Dunk and GW kept their downtime lairs except Hestaby.
Could just be that actually inundating North America with GDs (remember, Dunk was alone in NA until the CFS book) might have been a strategic move on FASA's part to remind people that they're around, but they're not around every corner. Lesser Dracoforms seem to be common enough not to mention, though they were referred to more often than one would expect reading DotSW in SR1, especially, and SR2.
Could just be that actually inundating North America with GDs (remember, Dunk was alone in NA until the CFS book) might have been a strategic move on FASA's part to remind people that they're around, but they're not around every corner. Lesser Dracoforms seem to be common enough not to mention, though they were referred to more often than one would expect reading DotSW in SR1, especially, and SR2.
What animal does the Thunderbird equate to in real life? I thought maybe the Condor, but it doesn't really fit. Maybe that could adapted to be a previously unknown variety of Dragon.
The Huron Amerindians had a myth about the dragon Angont, who was described as a land dragon who lived in deep caves. But most of the other Amerindian dragon myths (Gaasyendietha in Seneca myth, Kolowisi in Zuni myth, Msi-Kinepeikwa in Shawnee myth, Amhuluk of the Oregon myth, the Uktena of Cherokee myth) are lake or river serpents. Of course, I suppose it's possible for Western Dragons or Feathered Serpents to live in underwater lairs through use of magic, but my point of view is that it makes a great opportunity to use the red-headed stepchild of the dragon world, the Leviathans.
| QUOTE (Demonseed Elite) |
| ... the red-headed stepchild of the dragon world, the Leviathans. |
Hey! Some of us resemble that remark and don't appreciate it!
| QUOTE (Ancient History) | ||
Hey! Some of us resemble that remark and don't appreciate it! |
Please clarify... you resemble the red-headed stepchild or the Leviathan?
Yes.
| QUOTE (Demonseed Elite) |
| The Huron Amerindians had a myth about the dragon Angont, who was described as a land dragon who lived in deep caves. But most of the other Amerindian dragon myths (Gaasyendietha in Seneca myth, Kolowisi in Zuni myth, Msi-Kinepeikwa in Shawnee myth, Amhuluk of the Oregon myth, the Uktena of Cherokee myth) are lake or river serpents. Of course, I suppose it's possible for Western Dragons or Feathered Serpents to live in underwater lairs through use of magic, but my point of view is that it makes a great opportunity to use the red-headed stepchild of the dragon world, the Leviathans. |
Indeed.
Avanyu, the plumed serpent in the San Ildenfonso Pueblo (specifically, but it does have crossover with the other 18 Pueblos) is a rain god.
Hmm... Maybe Mujaji's Pueblo.
Thanks for all the great info! All this background will make for a great NPC. Adding in a levathian as a river dragon/spirit would be great running in the great lakes region. 
| QUOTE (hahnsoo) | ||||
Please clarify... you resemble the red-headed stepchild or the Leviathan? |
He's actually a red headed leviathan.
It's already been kicked around, but the Native peoples of North America, once you get out of the desert, didn't really have a "dragon" myth. There was the "Thunderbird" but that never materialized as anything reptilian. There are lots of water myths like "Nessie." Ogopogo has been brought up. There are lots of similar stories and "Champ" in lake Champlain New York springs to mind .
but these are all aquatic. How about we've just discovered a 4th type of dragon-aquatic. Since it doesn't come up into the surface we don't really interact with them. They have no interest in the corporate world.
BUT
as we move into the oceans we are more likely to interact with them. Perhaps the line in Dunkelzahn's will about setting up an undersea colony was there to force humans into the aquatic dragon's world leading ot interaction. That sort of manuvering would be right in the big D's style.
| QUOTE |
| but these are all aquatic. How about we've just discovered a 4th type of dragon-aquatic. |
Leviathans, or Sea Dragons, are the fourth dragon type. DotSW describes them as salt-water dragons, but I don't see why they couldn't be found in freshwater too.
ok, missed that, but the big hteme still goes as to how/why they don't interact with metahumanity the way the other dragons do.
Simple, Metahumanity is land-based. Leviathans are sea-based. Neither would interact much with the other unless they went out of their way to.
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