Normally, an adept has no manner to bond with a weapons focus at character creation, because he has no spell points to spend in karma's place. However, if you use BeCKs, you have the real thing to spend on bonds.
So, the question is: Should Adepts be allowed to use BeCKs karma to bond with weapon foci during character creation?
Case for: It's wicked expensive to do anything henious. [Reach+1 X 100,000] + [Force X 90,000] plus (3+reach) X Force to bond. This could easily be 60-80 karma worth of resources just for something decent.
Case against: With 6 in the Edged Weapons Skill (30 karma), 6 in the Adept Power (3 power points, 75 to be an adept), and a force 6 Katana (740,000 = 107, and 24 more to bond), you can have 18 dice in Edged Weapons. And you can add combat pool on top of that! That's 236 of your 425. That's a lot, but DAMN, you get you money's worth. And you still have 3 power points left.
Daaaaaaaamn. What do you guys think? Allow free range, just veto the munchy BS, or screw it totally?
Full Version: Weapon Foci and Adepts with BeCKs
That seems pretty limited to me all by itself. Sure, I suppose if you wanted an uber-melee specialist of doom style adept that couldn't really do anything else very useful.
And I also think a character like that, as a GM, is pretty easy to keep under control. I mean, just run a few games where combat isn't really the issue and the player will see how pointless it was to drop all that karma like that at character creation.
And I also think a character like that, as a GM, is pretty easy to keep under control. I mean, just run a few games where combat isn't really the issue and the player will see how pointless it was to drop all that karma like that at character creation.
Adepts don't start out with spell points, so they can't start out with bonded foci. Yes, BeCKS uses Karma to buy things like Attributes, but note that all of the normal limits apply (no skill higher than 6, etc.), and awakened characters can not use Karma to initiate or to buy an ally spirit. So I would say adepts should not be allowed to use Karma to bond weapon foci... unless you want to house rule a system that is already a house rule. 
BeCKS was designed to make characters less min-maxed, not more. I did a bit of number-crunching, and you can make a very decent character with the 189 points that you have left for Attributes, skills, and extra Resources. 128 points gives you B: 5, Q: 5, S: 6, Ch: 2, I: 3, W: 4. 1 point gets you 20,000 more Nuyen in resources. 60 points gets you Athletics: 3, Etiquette: 2, Pentjak Silat: 4 with the Whirling and Whirling/Edged Weapons maneuvers, Pistols/specialize in a specific pistol: 4/5, and Stealth: 4. Then take 6 points of Flaws like Bad Karma and Extra Enemy, to buy the 6-point Ambidexterity Edge. Use a knife in your off hand, and suddenly those 18 dice turn into 27 dice. And he can add up to 6 points of Combat Pool to that, although he's unlikely to ever need to.
I could see a case "for" it if you could only make an utterly limited character, but the character that I just whipped up there, while not world-class, is still well-rounded enough to have little problem functioning as a runner.
BeCKS was designed to make characters less min-maxed, not more. I did a bit of number-crunching, and you can make a very decent character with the 189 points that you have left for Attributes, skills, and extra Resources. 128 points gives you B: 5, Q: 5, S: 6, Ch: 2, I: 3, W: 4. 1 point gets you 20,000 more Nuyen in resources. 60 points gets you Athletics: 3, Etiquette: 2, Pentjak Silat: 4 with the Whirling and Whirling/Edged Weapons maneuvers, Pistols/specialize in a specific pistol: 4/5, and Stealth: 4. Then take 6 points of Flaws like Bad Karma and Extra Enemy, to buy the 6-point Ambidexterity Edge. Use a knife in your off hand, and suddenly those 18 dice turn into 27 dice. And he can add up to 6 points of Combat Pool to that, although he's unlikely to ever need to.
I could see a case "for" it if you could only make an utterly limited character, but the character that I just whipped up there, while not world-class, is still well-rounded enough to have little problem functioning as a runner.
Let them do it. Trust me, they're not thinking so much if they do it. From a min-max point of view, you should ALWAYS bond in-game, not in Char-Gen. Even a Force 6 will only take 6ish games to Bond to, and it's not like he's needing all those dice yet since a min-maxxer already has ambidex, 2 weapons and is thus rolling 18 dice out of char-gen anyhows. Those points/resources are MUCH better spent in other ways.
Sphynx
Sphynx
| QUOTE |
| ... you should ALWAYS bond in-game ... |
Is this from an in-game perspective, or a game-mechanic perspective? Can you elaborate?
| QUOTE |
| ...BeCKS was designed to make characters less min-maxed, not more.... |
Touche. So your vote would be to keep that window closed for adepts. I suppose in moderation, it can be allowable.
There's a difference between 18 WF dice and 27 normal. Those 18 dice are affecting ONE roll, so soaking one from deadly +4 is rougher than 2 Deadlies, especially against high bodied, highly armored targets. Also, a weapon focus can hit astral targets, spirits, and all sorts of other nasties which would shurg off normal weapons.
I got the idea when trying to make a Spirit assassin; that's why the weapon focus has some advantages (in my book, anyway).
| QUOTE (Morphling The Pretender) |
| There's a difference between 18 WF dice and 27 normal. Those 18 dice are affecting ONE roll, so soaking one from deadly +4 is rougher than 2 Deadlies, especially against high bodied, highly armored targets. Also, a weapon focus can hit astral targets, spirits, and all sorts of other nasties which would shurg off normal weapons. |
In fact, two-weapons combat doesn't give you two attacks but one attack at the main hand damage adding half your skill level ; in Sphinx example, you get 6 dices from your combat skill, 6 more from adept power, 6 from the focus AND 3 from off-hand (skill/2) + 3 from off-hand adept power (skill mod/2) + 3 from the weapon focus (skill mod/2) for a total of 27 points (Sphynx was using your example and merely continued spending remaining karma).
Technically a physical adept of the magical way could do it under any of the systems. So yeah I'd allow a physical adept to do it.
But a quick question.... What is the availability of weapon foci? Not to mention the street index. I'm not sure a player could pull it off without a real good explanation of where he got it.
But a quick question.... What is the availability of weapon foci? Not to mention the street index. I'm not sure a player could pull it off without a real good explanation of where he got it.
| QUOTE (Morphling The Pretender) | ||
Is this from an in-game perspective, or a game-mechanic perspective? Can you elaborate? |
From a Game Mechanics point of view. 18 base dice is plenty for most circumstances, and unlike skills, attributes, spells, etc where you have to explain, via training time etc, how/why you advance, a bonding is an insta-expenditure with no explanation needed. Spend those points in CharGen in places you'll have to otherwise take time-out to advance (even new cyberware is better gotten than spell points fo bonding when looking at the hospital time). And unlike other karma expenditures, there's no rolls to see if you were successful. So, bonding is best done in-character, as it's just as safe to do it post as pre (unlike anything else).
Sphynx
/Some/ would argue that Adepts "can" buy spell points to bond weapon foci at CharGen, so one could allow the same transfer with BeCKs.
| QUOTE |
| Sphynx So, bonding is best done in-character, as it's just as safe to do it post as pre (unlike anything else). |
Depends on the evilness of the GM:
"End with Imp" In-game
VS
"Saw it made" from CharGen
What's the biggest, baddest weapon foci a character could have for 1,000,000 
( the starting resource limit)? I don't have a book on me otherwise I'd figure it out myself.
( the starting resource limit)? I don't have a book on me otherwise I'd figure it out myself.
A +3 reach, Force 6 for 940,000.
Sphynx
Sphynx
| QUOTE |
| In fact, two-weapons combat doesn't give you two attacks but one attack at the main hand damage adding half your skill level ; in Sphinx example, you get 6 dices from your combat skill, 6 more from adept power, 6 from the focus AND 3 from off-hand (skill/2) + 3 from off-hand adept power (skill mod/2) + 3 from the weapon focus (skill mod/2) for a total of 27 points (Sphynx was using your example and merely continued spending remaining karma). |
My bad. I don't own the Cannon Companion, so I don't know the details.
| QUOTE |
| But a quick question.... What is the availability of weapon foci? Not to mention the street index. I'm not sure a player could pull it off without a real good explanation of where he got it. |
Availability 8/72hrs, with a 2 SI. Modest, considering it doesn't have anything to do with force.
| QUOTE |
| From a Game Mechanics point of view. 18 base dice is plenty for most circumstances, and unlike skills, attributes, spells, etc where you have to explain, via training time etc, how/why you advance, a bonding is an insta-expenditure with no explanation needed. Spend those points in CharGen in places you'll have to otherwise take time-out to advance (even new cyberware is better gotten than spell points fo bonding when looking at the hospital time). And unlike other karma expenditures, there's no rolls to see if you were successful. So, bonding is best done in-character, as it's just as safe to do it post as pre (unlike anything else). |
Foci takes Force in hours to bond with it. I don't get how it's better than the days, weeks or months of recuperation made after surgery. Do you also mean this in a non-broken-game-mechanics perspective?
Also, foci have disadvantages: your astral signature is embossed upon it, and can be rebonded/dispelled/destoryed if lost. (Cyberware is rarely lost.) And I can't think of any use of Good Karma which requires a check to see that it wasn't wasted. Increasing skills, attributes, and etc. I'm not well roused in MITS, but, then again, Quickening is a lot better than a weapon focus.
I don't think it's necessary to prevent them altogether from getting it at character creation, because it is so easy to do, not in spite of it. Just my 1/50th of a $.
First off, not comparing Foci to Cyberware. Just saying that if you have 2 options in mind, buying up some cyberware, or buying spell points for bonding purposes, you should spend it on cyberware because it's cheaper, easier and faster to bond a focus in game. If you just have extra nuyen to throw away, then by all means, bond.
The disadvantage of a link is hardly a disadvantage at all. Just as a link can be used to find you, you can use that link to find it (MitS), so the edge equals the flaw, negating the value of that flaw.
Lastly, I didn't say that you would lose karma, I said there's no rolls to see if you're successful. In some things, like learning spells, time can easily be doubled and nuyen wasted on teachers by failing your roll to learn. Astral Quests for initiations can fail as can other ways to initiate such as Meditation. Skill learning can fail since your roll your current skill against twice the level be attained. Karma's not wasted, but time is.
Regardless, bonding is easy (no rolls), fast (half a day at best), and cheap (nothing crazy like Street Index to up the price). So it's best done (from a min-max point of view) post CharGen.
Sphynx
The disadvantage of a link is hardly a disadvantage at all. Just as a link can be used to find you, you can use that link to find it (MitS), so the edge equals the flaw, negating the value of that flaw.
Lastly, I didn't say that you would lose karma, I said there's no rolls to see if you're successful. In some things, like learning spells, time can easily be doubled and nuyen wasted on teachers by failing your roll to learn. Astral Quests for initiations can fail as can other ways to initiate such as Meditation. Skill learning can fail since your roll your current skill against twice the level be attained. Karma's not wasted, but time is.
Regardless, bonding is easy (no rolls), fast (half a day at best), and cheap (nothing crazy like Street Index to up the price). So it's best done (from a min-max point of view) post CharGen.
Sphynx
| QUOTE |
| A +3 reach, Force 6 for 940,000. |
What would that be? 20-foot pole weapon focus? Halberd-with-troll-arm weapon focus?
Heh, something like that. 
I think a Lamp Post is more likely, but he did ask for the most powerful possible and since Force 6 is the cap at Char Gen...
Sphynx
I think a Lamp Post is more likely, but he did ask for the most powerful possible and since Force 6 is the cap at Char Gen... Sphynx
I'd say it'd be pretty obscene to go with something like a Katar, for high power and high concealability (8, IIRC), not to mention significantly lower cost. Get a second and watch the dice climb sky-high with plenty left over for other things.
You can do sick things with this even sans foci.
~J
You can do sick things with this even sans foci.
~J
| QUOTE |
| Do you also mean this in a non-broken-game-mechanics perspective? |
Since Sphnyx's original statement was "From a min-max point of view, you should ALWAYS bond in-game," I think he probably was referring to a broken-game-mechanics perspective.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.