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Hi all. I am starting a campaign in a month and the players I have spoken with want to play it with high level characters. I use level for lack of a better term for now.

My original thought is setting them up as a team of special operatives for (insert sufficiently powerful group or individual here) who are in place to prevent cataclysms and rare and powerful items from falling into the "wrong" hands, etc.

My main question is this: Using the build point system, how many points should I give them to start?

Your thoughts and suggestions are most appreciated.
How much are these guys expected to handle their own equipment inventories? If they have to personally pay for every gun and bullet then resources is going to be handled differently from if they get given everything (in which case resources is really only cyber/bioware and spell points).

Needless you'll never use more than 72 points on attributes as a maximum and even with 60 skill points (a hell of a lot) and maximum resources you're still only looking at 160 points.

What I'm saying is that the points system doesn't scale well (although it does better than priorities)

A better solution MIGHT be to give them a standard number of points (125 or whatever), then give them karma to improve stats, attributes, spells etc (plus initiate) along with an additional fund for purchasing stuff (maybe seperate individual and group funds). YMMV.

Much as I hate to say it, BeCKS might work even better...

I'm sure other people have their own ideas and might even have some experience of this smile.gif
MJLBB High Powered Characters rules.
Also very important to remember is that karma is usually more important to magic-oriented characters (who use it for initiation, über speels and foci) than gunbunnies, deckers and riggers (who usually have most of the skills they need from the start). Strike some sensible balance between giving them access to resources and karma.

Heck, if you want powerful PCs, give them access to a beta clinic from chargen. That allows for cultured bioware and even more chrome than a sane person should handle in one fell swoop. Plot a little (lot) extra resources in for free along with some karma to pay for toys and magic and raise the availability from 8 to 10-12 and let the players run wild. If one of my groups is anything to go by, they'll be fit to battle lofwyr, deus and half a dozen free spirits all at once in no time nyahnyah.gif
I don't have MJLBB yet, and I won't be getting it soon. I could suggest it to a couple players and steal a copy , though....

I hadn't thought about where the staring resources would come from (other than Chargen). I think the players will come to the table with their own gear and we'll move from there. Also, I am hesitant to use/allow the use of Becks until I understand it better.
Then simply say: "Use chargen as per (favourite system), but tack, say, 1 million nuyen on top and allow access to beta clinics and raise max ranking from 6 to 8 and availability from 8 to 12". Or something to that extent. Mages can buy spell points and nasty summoning materials. Sammies can cram 50% more chrome in. Riggers get their tanks. Deckers get their über-decks etc. Instant hi-level.

I aggree with what's previously stated about Becks. Becks is nice, but you really need NSRCG to keep track of stuff.
The method my GM uses is you build your character according to the system(he uses BeCKS but priority or Points would work as well), and you add in a set amount of karma after initial creation to represent their running experience. To even the playing field for the high level game, I would say just bump up the Cash-for-Karma option in the SR comp and allow access to magical initiation groups and betaware clinics. Instead of maybe ¥1,000-¥2,000 a point, make it ¥4,000-¥6,000 per point of karma. This will give those who need money and cyberware or karma and initiation an even surface to start with.
For gear-heavy characters, I have a tendency to handle consumable equipment costs (like basic ammo and gas) using a variation of the permanent lifestyle rules. Pay for 100 times the expected consumption of a run, and never worry about it again. I always bounce it off my GM during character generation, with the 'Generic Ammo Fund', and the Gas Fund, and occasionally the 'Car Maintainance fund'. I've thought about a SOTA fund, but Its been too unpredictable.

Just to make things clear, this is to handle the economics of consumables, not the availability thereof when dangling from a cable off the side of a building.... If you forgot your gear there, you're screwed.
So far these are all good suggestions, I will not be using Becks because of my unfamiliarity and one player's refusal to use NSRCG (who knows why, but he won't).

Lantzer, how long have you been using the "permanent" funds, and have they been game imbalancing in any way?
I was planning on allowing Beta grade cyberware and cultured bioware, and I have given some thought to raising the availablility to 10 and the ratings to 8.

Aes, was there a specific reason you went to 12 on availability?
I just thought +50%, really. It was a magic number withdrawn from the recesses of my anal cavity. Just a little more so the "high-level" pc's could get that slightly cooler cyberdeck, slightly heavier gun and slightly more powerful focus. Ymmv, of course. But the really lovely sniper rifles are at around availability 12-14 wink.gif
From memory I don't think that shift avail. from 8 to 10 makes much difference (I still like the SOTA Equipment edges and a 2 point edge there does just that). Certainly not going break anything with that. 12 does add in some more stuff IIRC - didn't someone do a list on the forums a few months/years back of what was got at each level?
QUOTE (Jrayjoker @ Feb 8 2005, 04:26 PM)
Lantzer, how long have you been using the "permanent" funds, and have they been game imbalancing in any way?

I've played with them with 4 different characters:
1) A ganger who had an ammo fund for a mix of normal, explosive, and flechette ammo. He tended to keep ammo loose in his pockets and load his revolver with whatever mix came easily to hand.
2) A dirty-tricks specialist who had funds for drugs, grenades, ammo, and explosives.
3) A rigger who had a gas station handy.
4) A sammie/face who had an ammo/genade fund.

It's best handled as an understanding between the GM and player, when the character has an roughly-constant-but-annoying-to-track-specifically outlay of funds for consumables, such as bullets, gas, grenades, drugs, vehicle/drone maintainance, etc.

This is most useful when a character has a certain style, so that his likely outlay of supplies per serious run is fairly predictable. When in doubt, overestimate a little. This is supposed to be a convenience, and there's nothing wrong with paying for that convenience. Figure out how much his normal outlay would cost, multiply by 100, and stop worrying about it. From then on, the PC can be considered, under reasonable circumstances, to have a stock of whatever he normally uses sufficient to gear up for a normal run. In extraordinary cirmcumstances, the GM is free to declare shortages in whatever. By the same token, the GM might rule the PC has more available than strictly necessary if the PC is fighting at home, for example.

Supplies that are out of the ordinary are, of course, not covered. And this is from the GM's point of view. If a Character starts suddenly buying APDS, for example, that probably should be paid for normally. Expensive stuff should proably be exempt, but that's the choice of the player and GM - If the character can afford that kind of expense regularly....Also, any really high availablilty stuff should be exempt, unless the character has an appropriate 'connected' edge.

I haven't had any complaints from my GM about doing this. I did this because I'm lazy, not because I was trying to get away with anything - and the GM realized this. I have a low munchkin-tolerance level, so I think he trusted me not to try to abuse this.
Availability chart...
Cool stuff. I will review the chart and get back to this post with some more questions.
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (Jrayjoker @ Feb 8 2005, 07:02 AM)
My main question is this: Using the build point system, how many points should I give them to start?

I'd go with the standard 125 bp, and then start handing out karma (30's a good amount just to give them flavor. Then work from there).

That's how I make my experienced PCs and NPCs when I have the time to think about it, instead of just waving my hands and adding dice to rolls made by NPCs who are just slightly different archetypes.

That way the mages can start out as Initiates, and they all actually have to go through the hassle of calculating karma costs for subsequent skill, attribute, etc. modifications.

It also gives them a Karma Pool.
Ah yes, the ubiquitous Karma Pool. How could I forget. That alone makes them more worthy...if they remember to use it.
Crimsondude 2.0
If they don't, they probably shouldn't get to play higher-powered PCs at creation.

That's also why you want to limit the karma to 30 or 50 or so. Unless you trust or hate your PCs. smile.gif

BTW, is this going to be a real (or at least canon) group, or Delta Green?
We once started a hig-power campaign and tried two ways to create the pcs: giving them 200 building points - which was wayyy too much - and 100 karma after building the chras with 125 points. Too much karma pool, but that was the only flaw at it.
Crimsondude 2.0
You may want to change it to 20 gk = 1 kp for creation only.
Thanks y'all.
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