Me *donning asbestos suit*
"Just a precaution he says..."

Rightyo, I had some questions about my chargen and the Infirm flaw...
The book says that it reduces the Attribute Maximum by whatever the negative points of the flaw.. src.20.4

Many people have interperted this to mean the Racial Maximum. Which it DOES NOT say... I thought it refered to the Maximum Attribute at Chargen which is 6...

You can see how it might go either way.. The book further describes how it might apply to "individuals who neglect their physical wellbeing, such as "couch potato" deckers ...."

Using the first argument (Racial Attr Max), if we use the Racial Attribute Maximum for a human which is 9, reduce it with "Infirm -3" which results in a Racial Attribute Maximum of 6. This is also the maximum you get on chargen... Applied to strength, this is a terrific starting STR score for a decker or mage...
I see no real penalty or "flaw" Sure, he can never improve it to a higher number but what decker or mage is going to boost this number anyways.. S/He gots better things to do with his or her karma.... I should be this kind of "couch potato". Remember an attribute value of 3 is average. Why would they want to boost this attribute anyways? It's not an important attribute for them.

This looks like either a broken rule (free points) OR a mis-interpertation.
It really only hurts when applied to the Maximum Attribute on chargen.

I'm asking the GM's their opinion (I already know how most players would read this).
What's your opinion?

It also hurts if you use the rule that bioware can only improve up to attribute maximum. If you don't play that way, you're right, it's nearly free.

~J

Ok, don't have a copy of the companion handy to check what is explicitly stated

I'd personally dock those points from them at chargen from the points they spend on attributes. I'd also permit them to spread the negative infirm points around amongst the Physical attributes.

Though, I'd deduct it from both their Racial Max, and the Chargen max. Ie, an Infirm 3 applied only to strength would give a human char 3 Strength Max at chargen, and 6 Racial Max.

The above character would start with negative points in strength before they apply attribute points, much like the ork/troll deficits to Int and Cha.

By you know. That's probably got minimal grounding in rules. Just how I'd do it.

I interpret it as Attribute Maximum, equal to Racially Modified Limit x 1.5. Yes, in several cases this can result in 3 free points, especially since cyberware can still increase attributes above that. However, IMHO it's not nearly as abusive as Sensitive Neural Structure, which is 4 free points for almost everyone. Infirm is the same in my games as any of the other edges and flaws: allowed as long as there's something in the background to support it.

It very obviously refers to the Attribute Maximum, since that is the term it uses. The Attribute Maximum is equal to the Racial Modified Limit x 1.5. Note that later on, it says "If the character's Attribute Maximums fall below the Racial Modified Limit than this new number acts as both the Attribute Maximum and the Racial Modified Limit." So you are correct, someone with the Infirm -3 Flaw could start out with physical Attributes of 6.

So is it giving a mage or decker who won't ever improve beyond 6 "free points"? In a way, but for gaining only 3 build points, they are permanently losing the ability to raise 3 of their Attributes past a certain level. The Flaw, in and of itself, it not imbalanced for the disadvantage it gives the character. For some mages or deckers, the Flaw might fit their character. For others, it is blatant min-maxing. It is like a character who has no intention of ever decking taking the Codeblock and Choker Flaws. That is why the last step of character creation is GM approval. I don't think the Infirm Flaw needs to be changed. I think GMs do need to watch this Flaw for potential abuse.

Dark, that means you're paying six points for three points (for the three-point edge). Might as well just disallow it.
CirclMastr, I've managed to get set back up and the games'll resume as soon as I can find a good day for them. I'll also be there next Sunday.

~J