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BlacKat
I am prepping t set up a run for my gaming group. One of the party has Improved Invis and uses it to get all the sneaking parts of the mission done while the rest of the party makes a distraction or backs him up. My questions stem around how to detect notice him and what is not fooled by improved invis?

1. What is not fooled by improved Invis, would pressure sensors and ir beams pick up the character walking by or not? How about thermo or ultrasonics?

2. What does a person have to roll to notice the invis character, what does a drone/camera/missle have to roll? (party once thought of trying to turn a plane invis to avoid being shot down)
I know the rules are there but I cannot seem to get a consensus from them on what the diffs would be and what to roll against.

3. Would a watcher spirit/elemental/astral mage be able to see character easily?

BlacKat
Garland
1. Invisible is just that: non-visible. The character can still be heard, touched, etc. Opening a friggin' door gives him away. Thermo is no good, but ultrasonic detects him (it's sound, not sight).

2. Machines don't get to roll at all. There are other issues with this, though, as the Force of the spell has to be high enough to affect the machine in the first place. I'll let someone else explain that one in detail. It makes my head hurt.

3. Yes, the character is completely visible in the astral. No way around this, at least with spells.
DrJest
QUOTE
Thermo is no good


Now that I've actually laid hold of some of the books, can you page ref that for me? It's a big change from SR2, where thermo saw straight through Invis or Imp Invis.
Garland
I don't have a page ref for you (at work, away from books), but it's sight (at least in the case of therographic vision/cybereyes), so it don't work. Bioware thermosense organ works, however, because it isn't sight.

Edit: Otherwise, can you imagine the demand for trolls and dwarves as facility guards? nyahnyah.gif
Tarantula
QUOTE (BlacKat)
1. What is not fooled by improved Invis, would pressure sensors and ir beams pick up the character walking by or not? How about thermo or ultrasonics?

2. What does a person have to roll to notice the invis character, what does a drone/camera/missle have to roll? (party once thought of trying to turn a plane invis to avoid being shot down)
I know the rules are there but I cannot seem to get a consensus from them on what the diffs would be and what to roll against.

3. Would a watcher spirit/elemental/astral mage be able to see character easily?

BlacKat

1. Pressure detects them fine, IR & thermo no, they're the same thing btw, and ultrasonics yes.

2. Perception. Sensors don't roll, I myself add 1 or 2 to the TN to spot the person in the first place, as sensors include a variety of non-visual detection.

3. Only if they're astrally perceiving.
DrJest
QUOTE
Otherwise, can you imagine the demand for trolls and dwarves as facility guards?


Yeah, in my games there used to be an average of one of either per patrol in mid-level facilities (lower level ones couldn't afford speciality recruitment, higher level ones were as likely to use cybereyes).
Garland
This reminds me of the only game of SR I've been in as a player rather than a GM. One of the other players was a gargoyle shamanist, and I was a full gargoyle shaman (blind character creation sleepy.gif ). He hadn't played since SR2 and was shocked to find out I could pass through living matter in the astral. "What about bacterial containment grids..." was the last thing he said before quieting down.

Edit: Spelling...
Cochise
QUOTE (Tarantula)
IR & thermo no, they're the same thing btw,

No, they aren't although SR uses the terms interchangably ...

They are merely based on the same physical phenomenon: electromagnetic waves within a certain range of wavelengths (can't be bothered to search for the exact values right now).

The difference is however:

IR cameras and diodes *like in your IR remote control* (and presumably a natural occuring form of IR-vision, if such existed *not to confused with IR perception of snakes*) operate directly on electric currents produced by incoming IR waves. It's a normal, socalled photo effect. The heat transfering effect of IR is next irrelevant for that kind of application. All that matters is that the receptor material produces voltages and currents based on the wavelengths of the incoming light.
Camera systems that work with that kind of technology usually provide black and white pictures although it would be possible to make "false color imagery" just as with what I'll briefly explain in the part about thermographics.
This technology usually uses wavelengths that fall in the realm of socalled short or near IR ...

Thermographics (at least the conventional form) works more indirectly. It meassures temperature differences created by IR light within receptor materials and references them to a know heat source. This time it's the heat transfer effect that's being used to make the "perception".
This technology usually is connected to those colored pictures as used in Robocop or Predator and even went into the description if IR-Sight in M&M on p. 49 (although at least the biological version is more likely to operate on the previously mentioned photo effect that has nothing to do with temperatures).
This technology makes use of wavelengths in the mid to long range part of the IR spectrum (The longer waves transfer significantly less energy but simultaniously aren't absorbed as easily by the sourrounding atmosphere ).

How's that reflected in SR?

Pretty simple: The Thermosense Organ bioware operates on the thermal effects of IR and can detect persons under invis spells (although with less precission). Any technical sensor that operates on the same effect will still be able to thermally detect persons under Invis or Improved Invis.

"Optical" sensors that use the photo effect however (e.g. IR light barriers) will be affected by the improved spell version since they operate on what SR considers as "Sight" ...
Since natural and cybered "thermosight" in SR no longer are unaffected by the invis spells (in contrast to SR2, where thermosight defeated the Invis spells), I consider those forms of IR-perceptions as also being based on photo effects, despite the M&M description ...


GrinderTheTroll
QUOTE (BlacKat)
My questions stem around how to detect notice him and what is not fooled by improved invis?

1.  What is not fooled by improved Invis, would pressure sensors and ir beams pick up the character walking by or not?  How about thermo or ultrasonics?

Improved invis fools the mind of the viewer into not seeing the target of the spell. So yeah, pressure traps/detection would be activated. I'd argue that if something has been paid for with essence (cybereyes, natural vision, etc.) that it would be considered "vision" on the part of a character as be subject to the spell. If the detection method was non-living (external detection system) then it would be subject to the standard threshold for illusions vs. non-living viewers.

As a note, the latter part may not be how canon dictates thermo/ultra, but it's an easy ruling we use.

QUOTE
2.  What does a person have to roll to notice the invis character, what does a drone/camera/missle have to roll?  (party once thought of trying to turn a plane invis to avoid being shot down)
I know the rules are there but I cannot seem to get a consensus from them on what the diffs would be and what to roll against.

Living targets make an Intelligence (Force) Test and must beat successes genreated by the spell. Since non-living viewers don't get resistance tests and are either effected or not, so the spell must be cast at sufficient level that being, Object Resistance/2. Cameras have OR=8, so a Rating=4 spell or higher would be needed. The whole "OR or not OR" argument is questionable, otherwise, the spell would auto-suceed no matter what level.

QUOTE
3.  Would a watcher spirit/elemental/astral mage be able to see character easily?
Illuisions are obvious on astral and cannot diguise or create auras so, yes, Invisibility (or any other illusion) is useless against Astral viewers.
Da9iel
Related question. Would someone wearing electronic imaging goggles (IR, UV, elec. mag., etc.) be unaffected by invis. (not improved invis.)?
Bigity
Heh, I guess that could be an OR question, but I would say they would be affected, because someone with those exact systems as cyberware would be.
Tarantula
They would be, simply because the invis spell would make them think they didn't see the image on said imaging goggles. I.e. the goggles are displaying the person, but, the spell makes the user of the goggles not see that part of the display.
Garland
Nice idea, but do you extend that to people watching video screens?
Tarantula
No, because they are removed from how the spell can affect them. (Spells need LOS). So, since mr goggles is behind the goggles, the rest of him is still valid for the spell to find and affect. The guy watching a vid screen a quarter mile away from the mounted camera isn't however.
Bigity
Well, typically someone wearing a pair of goggles is going to be within range of the spell to begin with, but for regular Invis, someone watching remotely would see, but not with Imp Invis. (depending on the whole OR thing)
Garland
Fair enough. I liked the idea but wasn't real sure if it made "universal" sense.
Tarantula
The original question was based on goggles and a regular invis spell. Camera does/doesn't see depending on how you interpret imp invis and OR thing.
Jrayjoker
Not again guys!
GrinderTheTroll
QUOTE (Bigity)
Heh, I guess that could be an OR question, but I would say they would be affected, because someone with those exact systems as cyberware would be.

Regular Invis effects only living targets.

Improved Invis effects living and non-living targets.

My argument about regular invis affecting cybereyes was that since they've already been paid for with essence, they should be coinsidered "living" for purposes of Regular invisibility.
Bigity
Yea, I just worded my statement in a weird way.
Jrayjoker
Oh look, a dead horse. Lets go beat it! wink.gif
GrinderTheTroll
OMG Jray thanks for contributing. sarcastic.gif

I don't mind talking about this stuff over and over as long as people are interested. Since my brain cells have suffered massive trauma by means of ad hoc "beer surveys" it helps me too. nyahnyah.gif
Jrayjoker
I do what I can. What can I say, I'm a giver...
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