Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: The panzer Kunst
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
The Jopp
Yes, I was bored and started to think (now that's a scary thought...)

Well, I was thinking, with all these dangerous streetsamurais and cybermonsters running loose shouldn't SOMEONE have designed a martial art/combat tecnique to deal with these walking tincans of destruction?

And then I started looking at Battle Angel Alita.

Well, then the ball was in motion, but I wanted to keep it balanced without too much homecooked rules. So, here's the first idea.

The Panzer kunst

The character is specially trained to fight cyborgs and other cybernetically enhanced individuals. The character has intense knowledge about cybernetics and uses that knowledge to the outmost to cripple and kill an enhanced opponent.

-----------------------
Prequisites: Cybernetics/Cyberlimbs knowledge skill at least 1/2 of martial art skill
-----------------------
Combat Bonus: Gains +1D6 for every two points of essence the target has used for implants. Gains +2D6 for every point of NEGATIVE essence the target has used.
-----------------------

*The above idea MIGHT be replaced by using the highest knowledge skill as complementary dice instead*

Combat Penalty: Character has a -2D6 against unaugmented targets and a -2D6 against awakened characters and -3D6 if they also has full essence (total -3D6).

Manuvers
As Brawling but must choose a maneuver for every two points of skill.

Advantage/Disadvantage
As Karate

So, who is up for designing an art against all those horrible awakened Jet-Li carbon copies...
Nath
I'd personally not like the idea of giving a bonus just on the mathematical amount of essence. I don't see why a rigger packing a VCR, or a guy with plenty of headware memory, should be easily beat up with special techniques.

My very first idea would be to have specific maneuvers giving bonus in specific case:

- "Timed Reaction" giving -1 for each Initiative dice above one (granted by cyber or bioware) the opponent has
- "Dead weighting" giving -1 for each cyberlimb, or similar implant who make a cybered guy heavier than he should be, like titanium bone lacing.
- "Hand play" giving a bonus of half the skill rating if the opponent is using Cyber-implant Combat
- "Unpredictable move" giving a bonus of half the skill rating if the opponent is using a skillsoft to fight
- a maneuver giving a bonus of half, a third or less, as balanced, of the attributes bonus point the opponent receives from implants (in the case of cyberlimbs, the whole Strength and Quickness attributes are considered as cyber-augmentation) ? You could even count initiative dice That one is a bit heavy, and it would virtually replace both "Timed Reaction" and "Dead weighting"

And a made-up disavantage, +X if the character can't get any bonus from one of the aforementionned maneuvers (so yes, any other of the usual maneuver's going to be harder).

That was quickly thought, and need to be refined and balanced, if anything.
kevyn668
Why does it only work against Sams? Why not Combat Adepts?

How does having knowledge of cyberware make you a better fighter? The Sam is still moving faster than you, he's stronger than you, and has a layer or two polycarb under his skin and/or around his bones.

I just don't see it.

If you want a force that can stand a chance against the Sams of the World, try combat drugs. The rules already exist.
Kanada Ten
I can see it against chipped skills. I would simply make a knowledge skill called Martial Arts Skillsofts (Specific Art) and allow those dice to act complementary against slotted characters.
Large Mike

Furthurmore, martial arts giving initiative bonuses just smack of broken to me. In this manner, someone with wired 2 fighting a zero essence sam rolls... 5d6? And what if there are non-cybered in the same brawl? Do you have two different initiative scores? How would you reconcile that?

(And for the sake of illustration, someone with this martial art and wired 3 fighting a CZ rolls 7d6 initiative. Even more with drugs. Nuh-uh. *Nothing* moves that fast.)
Cynic project
I have made an elf that got unlimeted money go something on around 26+5D6. Never played him after that, but that is what you get with 250,000,000 and SK backing.
kevyn668
QUOTE (Cynic project)
I have made an elf that got unlimeted money go something on around 26+5D6. Never played him after that, but that is what you get with 250,000,000 and SK backing.

[fails willpower roll]

How?
Crusher Bob
Hmm we start with

Quick 7
Int 6

Add

MBW 4, Synaptic 1, Toner - 4, Cerebral -2, adrenal -2, enhanced artic, super thyroid, reaction enhancement 6, use SMUT on yourself...

Hmm will all these things work together?
Crusher Bob
A more general rule here might be allowing a knowledge skill 'weaknesses of mokey ggrip kung fu' (or whatever) to provide some small bonus against a user. But then you run into the problem of training, what if the guy you are fighting is using 'american monkey grip' as opposed to 'traditional monkey grip'? The acts you take expecting to find a weakness that may not be there could screw you.
kevyn668
Maybe a high rating in Small Unit Tactics would do?
Sandoval Smith
As I have all of Battle Angel Alita sitting right next to me, let me clarify a bit. Panzer Kunst was an 'armored art' developed _for_ cyborgs. What the Jopp is thinking of is the creatively named, 'anti-cyber martial arts' used by the character Figure-Four. In 'Alita' frequently the only original parts cyborgs had left were the brain and spine, and Figure's style favored strikes that used focused vibration to disrupt the cyborg's brain.

It's a concept that doesn't really translate well to Shadowrun.
Garland
At the risk of sounding like an even bigger geek, didn't Machine Klatch (or however it was spelled) beat Panzer Kunst anyway?
Sandoval Smith
Mashine Klatsch if you want to be particular, and that just might've been because Jashugan was a better, and more driven fighter at that particlar point.
(Ubergeeked)
Kagetenshi
I'm pretty sure Panzer Kunst was considered at least equal to if not better; it was certainly more legendary. Jashugan just had more focus and his augmentations.

~J
Edward
The idea is good but difficult to work out.

The logic is that training in this art focuses on the weaknesses of cyber ware and how to break it, for example high cyber enhanced initiative makes you react before you think properly, thus certain types of feints will work better against somebody with cyber twinkled initiative (magic doesnít have this downside so the techniques donít work on adepts and mages) cyber arms have different weaknesses than real limbs so you learn tequneques suited to damaging artificial limbs instead of real ones.

Special manurers would be required such as

Taunt speed. Learn how to feint best to fool technologically accelerated reflexes. Wen using this mauver at your opponents bonus initiative dice to your skill.

Breaking steal bone, add 1 to your skill when attempting to damage a cyber limb (or bone with bone lacing). you must be aware of the modification to use this mauver.

Spoof the soft. Even the best skill soft becomes predictable in time. Add 1 dice to your skill when facing an opponent using a skill soft after each (rating of soft/2) time he uses it. Max bonus 3 dice, max 2 dice if he has an expert driver and applied a point of task pool to the effect.

Returning unearned strength, when using this mauver add Ĺ your opponents strength modification to your skill.

Returning unearned speed, when using this mauver add 1/3 your opponents quickness and reaction modification to your skill.

Deflecting false claws. ad 1 to your skill when your opponent uses cyber implant combat.

Pearsing the unnatural turtle. Increase damage rating by (implanted impact armour +implanted additional soak dice), this is a difficult trick so increase the target number for your attack by one.

Just some ideas.
Edward
Cynic project
QUOTE (kevyn668)
QUOTE (Cynic project @ Feb 10 2005, 09:35 PM)
I have made an elf that got unlimeted money go something on around 26+5D6. Never played him after that, but that is what you get with 250,000,000 and SK backing.

[fails willpower roll]

How?

Well, as an elf I had a quickness of 12(love gen tech)and an int of 10. Then I had the edge that give you plus 3. So we are looking at 15, a MBW 4, enhanced artic, super th. Bringing me up to 24+5d6 and I had SmUT at 8.
The Jopp
There seems to be some confusion here, all the attacker gets is a D6 bonus to his combat result, not an initiative bonus. I wanted it to represent how the attacker observes his opponent for possible omplants like reaction enhancers, cyberlimbs and weapons.

At most he could get +3D6 to his attack roll *NOT HIS INITIATIVE*
An attacking character wuld get Skill+Pool+ (1-3D6)

Hmm, another way to make it work would be to give the attacker +1D6 to attack roll for each D6 of cybernetically enhanced initiative the target has. Call it a way for the attacker to predict how fast the target will move and how they will move.
The Jopp
QUOTE (Cynic project)
How? [/QUOTE]
Well, as an elf I had a quickness of 12(love gen tech)and an int of 10. Then I had the edge that give you plus 3. So we are looking at 15, a MBW 4, enhanced artic, super th. Bringing me up to 24+5d6 and I had SmUT at 8.

The increased reaction edge only works in surprise situations
Garland
QUOTE (Sandoval Smith)
Mashine Klatsch if you want to be particular, and that just might've been because Jashugan was a better, and more driven fighter at that particlar point.
(Ubergeeked)

Thanks for the spelling. I really need to get those manga back out and reread them.
JongWK
Ok, this is just an on-the-fly thought...

My take is that by 2064, most (if not all) martial arts will have developed techniques to fight enhanced combatants (Awakened, cybered, etc.). This means your Martial Art of choice already includes that knowledge, so there's no need for another art or skill.

Now, if you really want it, you could make it a Complementary Knowledge Skill, as every opponent is different and what you have is a broad set of techniques designed against them. You could also specialize against Awakened, cybered, etc... (not sure about the time to make the test: Every round? When combat starts? If you take an action to evaluate the enemy?)

What do you think? smile.gif

EDIT: Alita rocks. I always wanted to run an Alita campaign with SR's rules. love.gif
mfb
here's how i'd do it. this isn't based on Battle Angel Alita; if anything, it's based more on ep16 of GitS:SAC.

Panzer Kunst
This martial arts style teaches the fighter to maximize known weaknesses in an opponent's cyberware.

Advantages: The fighter can make a Called Shot to temporarily disable one of his opponent's cybernetic implants. The fighter must declare which implant he is attacking ahead of time; if the opponent does not have the declared implant, the attack does no damage and has no effect. Because the fighter takes advantage of weaknesses in intercybernetic connections, not just weakenesses in the actual implants, the fighter does not have to actually see the implant he is attacking; the fighter can target completely internal cyberware as easily as he attacks external cyberware. If the Called Shot is successful, the opponent takes no physical or stun damage from the attack. However, the targeted implant must make a Stress Test (M&M page 126) against a TN equal to the Power of the attack or fail completely for 1d6 initiative passes. Impact Armor reduces the TN normally. If the implant fails the Stress Test, it also takes Stress as if the character had suffered a Wound Effect--1d6/2 Stress points. These Stress points do not trigger an immediate Stress Test.

Disadvantages: The Panzer Kunst skill can not be raised higher than the character's Cybertechnology knowledge skill. The knowledge skill may be chipped, but if the chipped skill is inaccessible, so is the Panzer Kunst skill. In addition, because Panzer Kunst focuses on attack rather than defense, Panzer Kunst practitioners take -2 dice on counterattack rolls during any Initiative Pass during which they use the Panzer Kunst skill.

Maneuvers: Close Combat, Zoning, Herding, Sweep, Full Attack, Kick Attack, Multi-Attack, Disorient, Focus Strength.
Tanka
QUOTE (Cynic project)
QUOTE (kevyn668 @ Feb 10 2005, 10:00 PM)
QUOTE (Cynic project @ Feb 10 2005, 09:35 PM)
I have made an elf that got unlimeted money go something on around 26+5D6. Never played him after that, but that is what you get with 250,000,000 and SK backing.

[fails willpower roll]

How?

Well, as an elf I had a quickness of 12(love gen tech)and an int of 10. Then I had the edge that give you plus 3. So we are looking at 15, a MBW 4, enhanced artic, super th. Bringing me up to 24+5d6 and I had SmUT at 8.

Well, your Int is off by one. (Max Racial is 9. Unless you were going by SR2 rules, in which case you blew Essence in an Encephalon 3/4 just for the Int/Reaction boost? ohplease.gif)
mfb
rewrote my version, stripping out the crazyocity and replacing it with cool, refreshing sanity.

Panzer Kunst
This martial arts style teaches the fighter to maximize known weaknesses in an opponent's cyberware.

Advantages
A Panzer Kunst practitioner can make a Called Shot against an opponent with headware and/or reaction-enhancing cyberware. Instead of gaining the normal benefits of a Called Shot, the Panzer Kunst practitioner's attack stuns his opponent for (net successes) combat turns; the duration of the stun can be reduced by one round per success on a Body or Will test (whichever is greater) made by the opponent against TN 4. The Damage Level of this attack is reduced by two levels. Panzer Kunst practitioners can also make a normal Called Shot to bypass cyberlimb armor, taking a TN mod of +2 instead of the usual +4.

Disadvantages
The Panzer Kunst skill can not be raised higher than the character's Cybertechnology knowledge skill. The knowledge skill may be chipped, but if the chipped skill is inaccessible, so is the Panzer Kunst skill. In addition, because Panzer Kunst focuses on attack rather than defense, Panzer Kunst practitioners take -2 dice on counterattack rolls during any Initiative Pass during which they use the Panzer Kunst skill.

Maneuvers
Close Combat, Disorient, Focus Strength, Full Attack, Herding, Kick Attack, Multi-Attack, Sweep, Zoning
Shockwave_IIc
Flip Side.

Anybody thought of transfering the Martial Art- Panzer Faust From Cyberpunks Soldier of Fortune 2?

(Absalutly brilliant book, ran the traning ground at the back for my players once they SO loved it)
Fortune
What Maneuvers would you (as in you all) give to a Martial Art that is based around Cyber-Implant Weaponry like razors or spurs?
The Jopp
QUOTE (Fortune)
What Maneuvers would you (as in you all) give to a Martial Art that is based around Cyber-Implant Weaponry like razors or spurs?

I think that the "Close Combat" maneuver would be quite useful since it would teach those individuals with implant weapons to get under an opponents guard so that they can use their spurs, shock hands, other implants since they by themselves lack a natural reach bonus for such short-bladed weapons.
mfb
whirling and close combat are the most useful maneuvers in the entire book, period. there are few maneuvers that are more useful for implant weaponry than for unarmed--close combat, sweep and throw are pretty much it. all three take penalties to the power of the attack; implant weapons raise the power of the attack, so you get more mileage out of those maneuvers than you otherwise would.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012