I was just wondering how everyone kept track of their players in combat. I am currently running with 6 players and combat is getting alittle too spread out to keep track of completly on paper especially if they split up. Does anyone use a battle mat (hex or square) or do you all stick with pen and paper and purely mental mapping?
Full Version: Keeping track of combat
Generally mental mapping, unless there's a layout we need to visualize before fully understanding.
When that happens, different colored dice/different die types for different people/things.
When that happens, different colored dice/different die types for different people/things.
yeah , dice & coins, that kind of thing ive had other gm's use in games ive played. I was tempted to snag a few of the Iron wind pewter pieces , mainly for the aesthetic value.
Battlemats tend to drag out a combat a bit, but I think it gives a player a clear understanding of the environment and position of the opposition. I probably run 90 % of the time without it, and 10 % with it if I feel it's necessary. In a brawl, or a gunfight in an apartment it's probably not necessary.
A decade ago, we used an overhead projector or a whiteboard and just drew things out... it was quick, and easy to erase to depict changing circumstances. Now, because we all can't meet at the same location, we use online whiteboard software (which makes everything look prettier, to say the least).
We use battlemats. I have to disagree that they drag combat out. If my group tried to switch to no mat, we'd have to spend large chunks of time asking "how far am I from the wall?", "Can I get to cover this pass?", "is he at short or medium range?" etc. etc.
White dry erase board.
| QUOTE (hahnsoo) |
| A decade ago, we used an overhead projector or a whiteboard and just drew things out... it was quick, and easy to erase to depict changing circumstances. Now, because we all can't meet at the same location, we use online whiteboard software (which makes everything look prettier, to say the least). |
Link?
White Dry Erase Board? Brilliant!
All this time I've just been using paper to sketch things out...
All this time I've just been using paper to sketch things out...
I'd say that a battle mat works the best because it makes it easier to visualize the fight. Also, it allows one to follow the movement and range rules with more accuracy. Plus, it looks sweet.
Also, I made a chart with combat participant's initiatives, damage, attack, etc. in columns and it makes tracking damage and looking up numbers for attacks a lot easier. If your using pre-made NPC's from a few books, it's definitly nice because then you don't have to hold 2 books open at the same time.
Also, I made a chart with combat participant's initiatives, damage, attack, etc. in columns and it makes tracking damage and looking up numbers for attacks a lot easier. If your using pre-made NPC's from a few books, it's definitly nice because then you don't have to hold 2 books open at the same time.
I use a laptop for initiative, as its extremely easy to keep track of changes to it that way (wound mods example). And for the condition monitors, I scanned in one, shrunk it a bit and printed about 30 on a page... print a few of these every time we play. Map-wise, someone on here recommended using Paint to create maps and I've since migrated to that venue for creating my playgrounds of destruction and mayhem. There are a couple other players with laptops and I just e-mail them a copy of who's where and what terrain or obstacles have been moved. Works great.
| QUOTE (Arethusa) |
| Link? |
Most communications packages come with proprietary whiteboard software. I believe Netmeeting has something similar. Coccinella on sourceforge is available for the tech savvy out there. The one we're using also comes from Sourceforge (I think) and has been customized by one of our players to give us most of the options we need... not sure what it's called, though.
Our team uses a battlemat every time (well, 99.5% of the time) there is a chance of character death due to opposing forces. How else can you decide whether someone is in or out of a Fireball? Or how many Combat Turns it takes to get into Melee range? Or whether there is a dumpster, car, or Troll you can take cover behind? We can't imagine playing a tactical combat without it.
For Shadowrun Missions I use the enlarging copier at Kinko's to make a 2' x 3' (or larger) blow up of the scenario map, so I don't have to draw it each time I run an adventure. It's $2 for a 2' x 3' when I use the copier myself, and I often run an adventure 4 or 5 times for different groups. I try to enlarge things to reach a scale of 1 inch = 2 meters (approximately 1:80 scale).
For Shadowrun Missions I use the enlarging copier at Kinko's to make a 2' x 3' (or larger) blow up of the scenario map, so I don't have to draw it each time I run an adventure. It's $2 for a 2' x 3' when I use the copier myself, and I often run an adventure 4 or 5 times for different groups. I try to enlarge things to reach a scale of 1 inch = 2 meters (approximately 1:80 scale).
| QUOTE (James McMurray) |
| We use battlemats. I have to disagree that they drag combat out. If my group tried to switch to no mat, we'd have to spend large chunks of time asking "how far am I from the wall?", "Can I get to cover this pass?", "is he at short or medium range?" etc. etc. |
If we used them more often, I would agree that in the end it would speed things up. I say combat doesn't erupt in my game but once every 3 or 4 sessions though, and most of those are quickly resolved. In protracted battles with multiple (and different) opposition, Battlemapping and minis are the way to go. The only problem I have w/ battlemats is the instant clarity Players get by seeing the opposition. I do what I can to limit the instant knowledge, but once one person sees it and it appears on the board, everyone sees it. Instant Battletac.
| QUOTE (OurTeam) |
| How else can you decide whether someone is in or out of a Fireball? Or how many Combat Turns it takes to get into Melee range? Or whether there is a dumpster, car, or Troll you can take cover behind? |
According to responses elsewhere:
By deciding what makes a more interesting story.
Sorry, but I think I'm going to point out this absurdity whenever possible.
| QUOTE |
| How else can you decide whether someone is in or out of a Fireball? Or how many Combat Turns it takes to get into Melee range? Or whether there is a dumpster, car, or Troll you can take cover behind? |
I've always run my games with open ended props. that is, if it makes sense for something to be there and it hasn't already been described in a certain location, my players are allowed to assume it's there and use it.
some examples:
player wants to dive behind a desk in an office, grab the stapler and whip it through the open office door? sure thing, even if I didn't mention a desk when setting up the room or specify where the door was.. it makes sense that there's a desk with a stapler, and that the desk is within LOS of the door.
Player wants to dive behind the metal dumpster in the alley? sure thing- as long as it's not the fourth or fifth dumpster in the alley.
Player is in a crowd and wants to vault of the head of a dwarf to get a better view? sure. it makes sense there'd be a dwarf within easy range. and if they can succeed at a moderate athletics test (6 or so) it would work in my game.
but maybe that's just the lazy gm in me coming out-
oh and I have never used a mat for SR. for two reasons, 1) too much information is available for free with a mat. and 2) in my experience, Mats tend to 'distract' players.
| QUOTE (OurTeam) |
| Our team |
I just wanted to see what that looked like in quotes.
We use battlemats ourselves. For one thing, it's funny to see them plan out the explosives they're going to use, and then plot the interdiction circle the explosives caused...In the last game there was a 45 D explosion at -3/m...I was using 2m/square, and the explosion took out a quarter of the map. The look on their face was priceless...
That and when throwing grenades, it is always a good idea to know what the blast radius of the grenade is before tossing...
That and when throwing grenades, it is always a good idea to know what the blast radius of the grenade is before tossing...
| QUOTE (Sokei) |
| I was just wondering how everyone kept track of their players in combat. I am currently running with 6 players and combat is getting alittle too spread out to keep track of completly on paper especially if they split up. Does anyone use a battle mat (hex or square) or do you all stick with pen and paper and purely mental mapping? |
Yikes! We've always used battlemats while doing close PC combat for SR, it really makes tracking PC and NPC alot easier.
We tend to use larger scale tactical maps when we can, and use the battlemat when the larger scales don't offer enough detail.
I prefer the use of hex grids for shadowrun, especially for situations in the open or in large spaces. Sure, square grids are perfect for drawing rooms, but the inherent d6 nature of SR (scatter, etc.) makes hex a logical choice.
I ran for the first time in a couple of years last night. I ran them through some basic combat and used a mat for the first time ever in SR. I've played in a D&D game that uses a mat for a year now and it completely changes the experience to see what's happening. D&D 3.5 is a lot more involved in miniatures and has exact rules for that stuff, while SR is a lot more open ended. The experiment I ran last night did well, I think. It was just a hassle finding SR minis, I had to order them online, and only a few of them have been painted. The scale still isn't perfect, but it'll work. I use a mat with 1" squares, each square equals 1 meter, and a diagonal move is 1.5 meters. If the minis and mat were in perfect scale then I'd need to use 3/4" squares to equal one meter, I think.
In the old days I'd just sketch something out on paper on the top of my head if the PCs needed a visual aid, but honestly, I think the mat will work out better in the longrun but I'm going to have to do more work as a GM and preplan the major battle areas.
In the old days I'd just sketch something out on paper on the top of my head if the PCs needed a visual aid, but honestly, I think the mat will work out better in the longrun but I'm going to have to do more work as a GM and preplan the major battle areas.
| QUOTE (shadow_scholar) |
| In the old days I'd just sketch something out on paper on the top of my head if the PCs needed a visual aid, but honestly, I think the mat will work out better in the longrun but I'm going to have to do more work as a GM and preplan the major battle areas. |
Make sure you get either a washable surface or laminate your mats. I find that washable markers or whiteboard markers can leave stains on rubberized mats.
Yeah, I ordered a mat but it hadn't come in yet so I took a D&D grid layout a friend gave me and had it laminated. We used some Expo dry erase markers and they really stuck to the plastic. Water or window cleaner wouldn't get it off, we had to use nail polish remover to finally get it off, but it still left a light stain in places. I'm glad it was just a temporary grid and not my good mat. What kind of markers do you recommend? I hear there are markers specifically made for mats.
I have never found them if they exist. I have had only limited luck with vis-a-vis brand overhead markers (light staining after a soap and water wash). I have taken to cutting out different sized squares and rectangles of cardboard and placing them on the mat.
thanks for all the great ideas, now i just have to find a decently priced mat or i can hit up one of my players for their mats, heh. my only concern is larger scale combat , ie breaking into a facility. i suppose i could stick with the mental calculations until they approach the enemies in short range combat. now that i think of it , switching back and forth between the two will probably be the most beneficial , one of my players is a sniper.... the last thing i need is to run across the damn room every time he wants to move 3 feet
You could draw a grid or print these: Mathsphere::Free Graph Paper (then use clear contact paper so you can draw on them if you want) to make individual floors/rooms and lay them out as they are explored. You can cut them out as you wish and make a puzzle! Fun!
Seriously, I would write a floor and room number on the back and keep a master key plan behind the GM screen and lay them out as the infiltration occurs.
Seriously, I would write a floor and room number on the back and keep a master key plan behind the GM screen and lay them out as the infiltration occurs.
| QUOTE (shadow_scholar) |
| Yeah, I ordered a mat but it hadn't come in yet so I took a D&D grid layout a friend gave me and had it laminated. We used some Expo dry erase markers and they really stuck to the plastic. Water or window cleaner wouldn't get it off, we had to use nail polish remover to finally get it off, but it still left a light stain in places. I'm glad it was just a temporary grid and not my good mat. What kind of markers do you recommend? I hear there are markers specifically made for mats. |
As for markers to use for battlemats, the following works for us:
NEVER use dry erase markers, they will almost always stain! Use wet-erase markers. We use vis-a-vis wet erase personally. Also, avoid using red markers. They tend to stain for some reason as well... But all the other colors are fine!
| QUOTE |
| You could draw a grid or print these: Mathsphere::Free Graph Paper (then use clear contact paper so you can draw on them if you want) to make individual floors/rooms and lay them out as they are explored. You can cut them out as you wish and make a puzzle! Fun! Seriously, I would write a floor and room number on the back and keep a master key plan behind the GM screen and lay them out as the infiltration occurs. |
free is always the best , but killing my printer ink might stack up fast, but for smaller rooms this will work great. i experimented with projector screen sheets over maps but the markers stained the hell out of it and smeared alot.
| QUOTE (DocMortand) |
| We use battlemats ourselves. For one thing, it's funny to see them plan out the explosives they're going to use, and then plot the interdiction circle the explosives caused...In the last game there was a 45 D explosion at -3/m...I was using 2m/square, and the explosion took out a quarter of the map. The look on their face was priceless... That and when throwing grenades, it is always a good idea to know what the blast radius of the grenade is before tossing... |
Correction; it was 75D (ie, 25 meter radius or 12 "squares" as we were laying it out last weekend). In our defense, it was the first time all of us as players were using the Shadowrun Explosives rules on large-scale explosives (ie, more than a grenade or kilo of material), and our demolitionist (Dirk) got lucky on his roll (4 successes out of 4) to increase power, which we couldn't have anticipated. This was what got us scrambling to buy so much fertilizer and petrol.
We always use vis-a-vis markers, usually blue and black. We've never had staining problems except when a mat is left out for too long without being wiped down. A small spritz bottle and a hand towel are all you need for cleaning the mat.
We use the flesh of our enemies, and then draw upon them with the blood of their loved ones.
We almost exclusively use verbal descriptions and hand gestures. Although battlemaps create more clarity, they often seem to restrict the player's freedom by regimenting the combat too much. Plus, I think it's easier for players to get drawn into the imagery of the moment by having everything working by descriptions. The downside is that it sometimes leads to confusion about what the scenario looks like.
| QUOTE (tisoz) | ||
According to responses elsewhere: By deciding what makes a more interesting story. Sorry, but I think I'm going to point out this absurdity whenever possible. |
I think that would be a good one for the: "You know you play too much White Wolf when you...".
Our group always uses the mats for D20 games, and we can't imagine it any other way. We have been playing SR for about 10 years and up to this point have just used hand drawn maps when needed. We decided to try the mats during the last run and I wanted to keep it from seeming like a D20 game so we tried the hex side...DON"T DO THAT..is all I can say. We are going to try the square side this weekend, so hopefully that goes better, the hexes were nightmare.
Hexes are great for outdoors battles that don't have a lot of walls. But if you're inside or near buildings, square is the only way to go. Just count every other diagonal as two squares and things owrk out pretty well.
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