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tisoz
What will set it off? What won't?
Kagetenshi
A combination of heat and pressure will. Heat alone, pressure alone, or electric current will not. Neither will insulting it, though there are indications that exceptionally harsh language may cause detonation.

~J
KaOs
Just as with other explosives, you need to apply some energy to C-4 to kick off the chemical reaction. Because of the stabilizer elements, it takes a considerable shock to set off this reaction; lighting the C-4 with a match will just make it burn slowly, like a piece of wood (in Vietnam, soldiers actually burned C-4 as an improvised cooking fire). Even shooting the explosive with a rifle won't trigger the reaction. Only a detonator, or blasting cap will do the job properly.
Herald of Verjigorm
Of course, SR explicitly states that plastic explosives in the 2050's and 2060's can be triggered by direct application of electricity. Probably a diffused lower intensity detonator compound mixed with the primary explosive.
KaOs
Well, it's pretty easy to make a blasting cap that'll work on C-4 (having done it my self). You really don't need much but a way to get a 9V to discharge on the C-4 it's self. It'd say an electrons test of 4 would make it. A failed test would mean a faulty detonator that either discharged soon as it was attached or didn't discharge at all.
Arethusa
It's not impossible now to stabilize a plastique compound that will go off purely with electrical current. It's more a matter of practicality and safety. Semtex'll go off if you look at it funny, but that doesn't really make it attractive...
tisoz
Ok, the basics are out of the way.

Say a bit of C4 detonates, How far away could another chunk be without detonating? Or, what (Rating)D damage can it withstand?
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (tisoz)
Or, what (Rating)D damage can it withstand?

Thinking about it in those terms will get you really funny results, because of the unreasonably high variance of Blast ratings and Power/kgs of SR explosives. With just Commercial Explosives, though, it kind of works out, because the actual blast radii of all types are equal.

I seem to remember from my explosives training that a series of 0.25kg TNT charges will only go off if the explosives are within ~20cm of each other. That'd make it ~40cm for a 1kg TNT charge. As a quick rule of thumb, then, you might use (explosive charge weight)^0.5 x (0.5 meters); 1kg = 0.5m, 4kg = 1m, ~15kg = 2m, ~60kg = 3m, etc.

A Hand or Minigrenade would probably have to go off in contact with or right next to the explosive to detonate it.
KaOs
QUOTE (tisoz)
Ok, the basics are out of the way.

Say a bit of C4 detonates, How far away could another chunk be without detonating? Or, what (Rating)D damage can it withstand?

If you had C4 detonate right next to but not touching another lump of C4, the second wouldn't detonate. Without the current it would just get blasted apart and not blow up it's self.

Unless it was shoddy C4 wannabe stuff. In that case it's up to the GM. The higher the quality, the close it can be to the point where it's just incinerated without explosion.
tisoz
I was wondering if the heat and pressure from the initial explosion would be enough to detonate it.
FrostyNSO
QUOTE (KaOs)
lighting the C-4 with a match will just make it burn slowly, like a piece of wood (in Vietnam, soldiers actually burned C-4 as an improvised cooking fire).

When I was overseas, I had to treat a dude who blew his leg off doing this.

His buddies said he was using a piece of lit C4 on a stick to heat some food from a field ration and when he finished he threw the thing on the ground and stomped on it to put out the flame.
<BOOM>

There is plastique that will ignite from just an electrical current but really, nobody really wants to risk using something that unstable. Well, maybe there are some that would, but nobody I know at least.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (tisoz)
I was wondering if the heat and pressure from the initial explosion would be enough to detonate it.

Well, it really does depend on the explosive in question, as KaOs said, and a bunch of other factors. I personally haven't got any experience with C-4, just a few other explosives like TNT, RDX, and some others the exact type of which I'm not sure, but most of those can certainly be set off by another major explosion happening very close.

On the other hand, I did witness some type of plastic explosive where some moron had rammed the blasting cap through the charge itself, the result of which was that the 300g block of explosive had a 5cm/2" diameter hole through the middle but had not detonated. You can believe we nearly shit outselves when we noticed that lying on a smoking tree stump in the training area.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm)
Of course, SR explicitly states that plastic explosives in the 2050's and 2060's can be triggered by direct application of electricity. Probably a diffused lower intensity detonator compound mixed with the primary explosive.

i think the exact statements is that you can get compounds that detonate on anything from a simple battery spark to something that needs more brute force to have it detonate. the stuff in the books are not so much diffrent brands and blends but diffrent detonation classes, you dont want to bring out the C12 if all you need is the comersial stuff, control is the most important thing in demolitions. if you dont have a general idea of how far stuff will fly then you may well be useing to much...

still, this have no real effect in SR rules as the damage rating dont take shrapnel into account, if so then the power reduction pr meter may have been much lower...

whatever you do, dont compare grenades and other explosives in SR. they work under diffrent laws of physics nyahnyah.gif
KaOs
QUOTE (FrostyNSO)
QUOTE (KaOs @ Feb 14 2005, 12:31 AM)
lighting the C-4 with a match will just make it burn slowly, like a piece of wood (in Vietnam, soldiers actually burned C-4 as an improvised cooking fire).

When I was overseas, I had to treat a dude who blew his leg off doing this.

His buddies said he was using a piece of lit C4 on a stick to heat some food from a field ration and when he finished he threw the thing on the ground and stomped on it to put out the flame.
<BOOM>

There is plastique that will ignite from just an electrical current but really, nobody really wants to risk using something that unstable. Well, maybe there are some that would, but nobody I know at least.

This makes me laugh. If it was C4 there is no way that happened. Unless it was homemade. Military grade C4 is stable unless it came from a really really bad batch. Hell, I doubt that would explode either.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (hobgoblin)
still, this have no real effect in SR rules as the damage rating dont take shrapnel into account, if so then the power reduction pr meter may have been much lower...

The Blast ratings of commercial explosives don't take sense into account. They are, how can I put this gently, fucking bullshit.
hobgoblin
well so i have noticed, they cant even blow a hole in a window (but that can have something to do with the industrial strength windows that sr seems to define as avarage). im guessing it have something to do with game balance (why use grenades when you can buy explosives by the kilo and make your own?)
Jrayjoker
I have access to a chart/equation that calculates the equivalent distance from source based on an amount of explosive/equivalent weight of explosive based on a set distance from the source to all compared to a set amount of TNT for various types of explosive materials. I am not going to share it because I don't want the feds to come a knockin', but the inverse square law holds true for pressure waves.

That being said, the difference between SR rules and RL are astronomical.

Remember kids, don't try this at home. Or at least don't tell anyone where you heard of it...
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (KaOs)
This makes me laugh. If it was C4 there is no way that happened. Unless it was homemade. Military grade C4 is stable unless it came from a really really bad batch. Hell, I doubt that would explode either.

Yep. Very stable unless exposed to, you know, both heat and pressure. The current is irrelevant to the C4, so your other statement is entirely wrong as well.

~J
mfb
indeed. C4, contrary to popular belief, is not detonated with electricity. the blasting cap that you wrap the C4 around is detonated with electricity. the C4 itself is detonated by the heat and pressure provided by the blasting cap. blowing yourself up by stomping on a C4 fire is not only possible, it's the most likely result.
Nikoli
That explains using det-cord to set off C-4
Austere Emancipator
With detcord, you should still either stick the end of the cord into the main explosive charge or, better yet, wrap the detcord around the explosive charge. I would not be surprised if a detcord just laying on or next to a plastic explosive charge failed to set it off.
Nikoli
well, yeah. I wasn't thinking of incidental discharge, but it does explain why det-cord can set off C-4.

Though I'm still trying to figure out how det-cord can transmit a detonation faster than a wire.
Kagetenshi
I'm not certain. I'm getting a value of ~200,000,000 meters/second for electrical signal propagation through copper wire, and ~7,500 meters/ second for detcord. Maybe it's just that it transmits it more uniformly?

~J
Nikoli
well, like most guys I love watching stuff get blown up, and every documentary I have seen on Discovery, TLC, PBS, etc. that talks about explosives says that det-cord is faster than wire for transmitting the signal. Might have something to do with the blasting caps.
Nikoli
Might have to turn to Mythbusters for this one.

Ditto on the stepping on Burning C-4.
(mainly cause who doesn't want to watch the dummy go boom?)
Jrayjoker
This discussion brings to mind the old prank:

Step 1. Put doggie poop in a brown paper bag.
Step 2. Place bag on target's doorstep.
Step 3. Light bag on fire.
Step 4. Ring doorbell.
Step 5. Run like hell.
Step 6. Watch (from concealment) target blow his fool leg off when he stomps on the burning bag to put it out because the doggie poop was really C4.
Step 7. ROTFLOL
Nikoli
Jray, this is your one warning. For your own sake, stay out of my head.
Kagetenshi
Am I the only one whose initial reaction upon finding something burning on the doorstep would not be to just stomp on it?

~J
Nikoli
hehe, not my initial response. But a lot of folks still do for some reason.
Jrayjoker
Oh my God! Put it out!

I guess it goes back to the brainstem response of the caveman who didn't want to burn to death in his tent, or pay for the sprinkler system.
Jrayjoker
QUOTE (Nikoli @ Feb 14 2005, 12:48 PM)
Jray, this is your one warning.  For your own sake, stay out of my head.

What do you suppose would happen if I were inside there? I mean, I'm not that big. I could fit in there OK probably.
Nikoli
Well, for one it's already crowded. Second, it's cramped.
Third, I make no claims of liability for your continued sanity or lack thereof.
Jrayjoker
What is the rent like?
Nikoli
Due to FEMA regulations, I'm no longer allowed to maintain human habitats in there. If I posted a rent, that would presume people space available. the current tennents have already signed waivers/been grandfathered in. no new tenements may be rented out or created.
Jrayjoker
Damnation!
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
I'm not certain. I'm getting a value of ~200,000,000 meters/second for electrical signal propagation through copper wire, and ~7,500 meters/ second for detcord. Maybe it's just that it transmits it more uniformly?
QUOTE (Nikoli)
Might have something to do with the blasting caps.

Kagetenshi's numbers look about right. The explosion in the detcord certainly doesn't travel faster than electricity in a wire -- it is orders of magnitude slower. The blasting caps may indeed provide an answer here. Perhaps (some types of) electric blasting caps ignite slowly, ie. take a noticeable fraction of a second to detonate after the current runs through them.
tisoz
So blasting caps are way more unstable? How far should they be (or how close can they be) to safely transport? If the demolitions guy is carrying his supplies on his person, is that too close? What kind of secondary effect damage makes him leave a big crater memorial?
Austere Emancipator
They can be right next to the explosives. They have to be embedded in the charge to set it off. You could have a blasting cap just lying on C-4, it probably wouldn't set it off.

It's probably a good idea to keep them in a separate, hard container, though. Blasting caps can certainly kill a person, the metal bottom cap blows off at a few thousand m/s.
Pthgar
Just as a point of nerdness, SR3 doesn't have C4, only C6 and C12. Other than that, let the geektalk resume. nyahnyah.gif
Austere Emancipator
There's no TNT, or blasting caps (that I know of), or a bunch of other essential stuff either. But when going for reasonable rulings, you have to look at the closest equivalent item from RL, and in this case that's C-4 for the SR C-6 and C-12.
Pthgar
Some cool instant Google-fu

Yeah for jolly ol' England
Check out the course offerings, after you blow something up with a shaped charge you get coffee!

Darn, reallity.
tisoz
QUOTE (Pthgar)
Just as a point of nerdness, SR3 doesn't have C4, only C6 and C12. Other than that, let the geektalk resume. nyahnyah.gif

Did the
QUOTE (SR3.283)
Plastic, Compuond IV
under Commercial Explosives get errata?

I remembered it as you say, but looked it up when I started the topic.
Pthgar
Whoops, apparently I have roman numeral dyslexia. For ten years I've been seeing C6.

I figured it out. I automatically turned the Rating (6) into the name Compound VI.
Austere Emancipator
Bugger. Yeah, me too, keep thinking C-6 because of the Rating. So, even more of a reason to look at how C-4 acts IRL.
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