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Narmio
So, my group and I are discussing the exact rules on armour layering. Particularly, what happens when you have mroe than two items of armour that layer. The layering rules in sr3 say this isn't really possible, but they were written before Form Fitting Armour became every munchkin's (and discrete types, but usually just munchkins) wetter-than-normal dream.

SR3 says you take the rating of the highest rated piece of armour and add it to half the second highest piece. If you are wearing, say, a lined coat and an armour vest with plates, this means you get 4|3 + (4|2)/2, or 6|4. But the rules do NOT say "add it to half all the other pieces", as might happen when you add a form fitting full body suit to the above. 4|3 + (4|2)/2 + (4|1)/2 == 8/4.

I think it's from a realism standpoint reasonable that in a few select situations such as this one, a character can wear three layers of armour, but from a game-balance standpoint that means characters can have insane amounts of armour, way more than security and military armour can provide, which just doesn't make any sense. A character with 9 quickness (Not as uncommon as it might sound, I have a munchkin infestation at times) can get a secure jacket, armour vest with plates AND a form fitting full suit for a whopping 9/4, and add forearm guards on top of that. Then they could grab a riot shield...

So, what do people use? What combos past two layers, if any, do people usually allow? How do people deal with players who can start the game and say "meh, security armour sucks, my stuff's better", and ignore anything short of full auto fire with their dermal sheathes and Leopard-III style armour?

Implementing the proposed restriction means EVERYONE winds up wearing a secure jacket and form fitting armour, too. No variety whatsoever.

Thoughts?
fistandantilus4.0
As I see it, form fitting covers the entire body, except feet, head , and hands. so forearm guards wouldn't really layer very well. Also, an armored vest over form fitting, and then a jacket wold be like wearing a sweater, than another sweater, than a jacket.

On one hand, too bulky to move in.I count minuses off of the combat pool as the full amount of armor.4,5,then 4, for a needed 13 quickness.. I had a player that tried to do all that along with armored camo armor. He didn't really like the idea of losing 6 points of combat pool, I didn't like the 9 or so armor, so we agreed that he was just trying to be cheap anyways and let it go.

Also, there is a little matter of just how warm all of that is going to make him. Even in the winter in Seattle, that is a LOT of layers to try running around in. He'll have to start carrying a water bottle too.

If they still insist on all that, start sending out guys w/ smart links going for called shots to the head. If you saw a guy wearing all that, would you try to shoot him in the chest?
Rieal82
on the topic or stacking armor if i've got quickness 4 and a lined coat (B4/I2) there is no problem. but what happens when i put on my Gyro mount(B1/I1) over my lined coat? do i take 1/2 the gyros armor .5 round down to 0 and take the penalty for the total ballistic being over my quickness?
toturi
From my reading and interpretation, I take the gyromount "armour" as a flat increase and the limitations to Combat Pool as applied after armour penalties are applied. No need to further penalise Gyro Stabilization, IMO.
Smiley
If you read the blurb in CC, a whole suit of FFBA does cover the head, feet, and hands. It comes with a hood and little booties. You can also get the half suit and vest versions.
Rieal82
QUOTE (Narmio)
Implementing the proposed restriction means EVERYONE winds up wearing a secure jacket and form fitting armour, too. No variety whatsoever.

i've got a Dwarf who walks around in the Executive Suite Line (2/2) with titanium bone lacing(1/1) and lvl 3 Dermal Sheath(0/2) for talking to the MJ and if Im heading out on the Run he adds the 1/2 suit FFBA(3/1)(no hat and bootys for me:-ř)and still goes in the Executive Suite Line. still end up with good armor and not to high that the GM gets pissed about me shrugging pistol rounds with no need to roll dice. and nothing is funner then a dwarf in a armor tux with a LMG MMG or a rocket luncher
The White Dwarf
Dont open this can of worms please its been done 100 times.

Theres 3 ways to interpret the layering section, and all three are equally valid depending on how you and your group read the text.

1- You can wear as much armor as you want, the highest at full value and half round down for the rest. However wearing more than 2 items may affect the concealabilty of the armor.

2- You can wear 2 sets of armor, highest at full and second at half round down. In addition you can have integral armor (cyber, bio, etc) and form fitting which doesnt count.

3- You can wear 2 sets of armor period. One at highest and second at half round down. While cyber/bio and form fitting etc may not count against quickness or combat pool related encumbrances, this doesnt mean they dont count against the 2 armor limit.

Obviously which you determine to be correct will affect the powerlevel of your groups games accordingly. But unless youre simply taking an opinion poll dont go here. Itll go on forever as the same points come up again and again.

Also, limiting it to 2 armors, should you decide on that, doesnt mean that everyone wears the same combo. Because that always results in a 7/3 rating. There are characters that may prefer something like a vest with plates and a heavy jumpsuit to wind up with a 5/5 and be better suited to melee; or any other decently armroed combination.

And finally, because personal armor isnt hardened, it could be rated 20/20 and the hold out pistol will still go thru with a tn2 resistance check. Which is why *skill* is just as important as damage code. If I tag you with 10 successes from that hold out, and you only have body 4, even at tn2 youre likley to wind up hurt. Dont neglect this facet when considering armor; theres only so much it can affect a combat. Its not the be-all end-all of runner survival, and why military-grade armor is still worth its weight in battle.
Edward
The way I normally set up my armor for a heavy situation (assuming starting gear only) reads

Long coat (secure, Mortimer whatever) 4/2
Rapid transit heavy jump suet 2/4
Full form fit 4/1
Forearm guards 0/1 all stacking

This gives me a total armor of 6/6 required qui 6
Changing the long coat to a secure vest would increase this to 7/6 and required qui 7
You could say that forearm guards donít stack with form fit but that is a bit mean considering form fit doesnít provide any impact armor in this setup

The point about head shots is interesting but before you can make a called shot to avoid armor you need to make a perception test against the armorís conceivability for guns my jumpsuit is irrelevant so that target number is 11 for the greatcoat and 12+greatcoat bonus for the form fit.

On top of that I often have an armor spell or 1/1 and 3 body from cyber.

A shield can give up to 2/3 or 3/1 (depending witch you prefer) and the helmet from rapid transit is 0/2.

This was all built on my reading that as a default all armor works on the first at full second at half, subsequent provides no benefit, calculate separately for ballistic and impact. Sum of all ratings affects combat pool & speed.

Then there are the exceptions. All internal armor, magical armor, shields, helmets and forearm guards are added after applying the armor stacking.

No internal armor, magical armor, shields, helmets and forearm guards or form fit body armor affects your combat pool or speed

Edward
tisoz
QUOTE (Smiley)
If you read the blurb in CC, a whole suit of FFBA does cover the head, feet, and hands. It comes with a hood and little booties. You can also get the half suit and vest versions.

Even if you want to say they must be worn (and I know all kinds of people who would disagree), they are hardly noticeable. How else do you wind up with Conceal 12? Use a little stealth and make someone succeed on a perception test (and waste an action) to notice it.
Edward
Personally I come have a hard time describing a hood and gloves that have conceal 12. I see it as being you ether ware fashion gloves over the armour gloves and a fashion hood, hat helmet or wig over the hood (something to explain why your hare isnít there). Of cause it isnít a big thing as the only effect is wether a called shot to these locations can bypass armour.

Edward
toturi
It is not whether a Called Shot to those locations can bypass armour but simply a Called Shot to bypass Armour (not location specific) unless you specifically choose to call the location.
Apathy
Okay: let's make the situation even uglier:

Let's say that in addition to the above layered (6/6) armor, the mage is channeling a force 6 great form spirit (immunity to normal weapons). How does that interact with the physical armor?

Does physical armor reduce the power of the bullets before testing against the immunity to normal weapons? (i.e. you shoot mage with PAC[18D]. He's wearing 6/6 armor, so I subtract 6 from the power making it 12D. 12 is not greater than twice the force of my great form spirit, so it does no damage?)

...or do you check for immunity first? (i.e. you shoot mage with PAC [18D]. 18 is greater than 12, so the round does damage, albeit reduced by the amount of the immunity (-12). So now the mage resists 2D (6D, reduced by 6 points of armor, minimum 2)?
Nikoli
I would rule for teh second example. -12 then use armor, min. 12. magic is powerful, but not that powerful.
toturi
I'd say the armour reduces the damage before the Immunity is checked.
Edward
because the spirit is in you and the bullet is ghoint to have to penetrate the armor befor it can interact with your magically augmented fless a strong argument can be maid for armor first and then imunity. I donít like to do that however as it brings the min force needed to bounce anything short of a heavy weapon down from 6 to 3 (2 if you include an armor spell) and means that to bounce the really tuff stuff (APDS with base damage levels in the 20 region) you only need a force 7 spirit and a good set of armor (heavy sack with helmet and ballistic riot shield) whereas if the armor comes after you would need a force 10 to be invulnerable.

The relative ease of securing immunity to anything short of heavy weapons would allow a shaman to be immune all the time with minimal risk of drain.

I think it becomes a game balance issue at this point and thus immunity to normal weapons should be considered before any reductions due to armor worn.

Edward
Nikoli
That was basically my feeling Edward.

Logical? Nope, but then again neither is magic in many cases.
Balance preserving? Probably
BitBasher
I'd allow the armor but the armor also degraded to almost nothing after the first shot, so you're toast on the second shot.
Sokei
I had a group get rather upset because of armor degradation rules. Im trying to think of a better way to implement them , one of the ideas i had was to apply all degradation after the run but that is completely unrealistic " look chummers my secure vest held up until just after we got in the van for our get away now its a pile off ash!"

has anyone else had layering or degradation rules cause players to have fits? oh btw the loudest complaints out of the group came from a massive munchkin player (was a little too used to pushing his DnD gm around with the rules).
BitBasher
I think the degradation rules are great, they give a great incentive to use the heavier armors instead of layering since its the power of the attack versus the individual armor piece that determines degredation. Security armor will not degrade from pistol shots while many soft armors will. I think it's great. It makes players consider the consequences a lot more.

I also make it so armor will nto degrade below 2 ballistic or one impact except through elemental damage.
Necro Tech
Answer I received from Shadowfaq and Rob was you can wear as much armor as you like but only the highest two ratings apply. Shields, helmets, forearm guards, and gyro mounts stack on top but still count against your combat pool and quickness penalty. Cyber/bio stacks on top of that but carriers no penalties.
The balistic and impact are counted seperately for the highest two so if you wear amor jacket 5/3, form fit full 4/1 and a coverall 2/4 you end up with 7/5 and need a quickness of 7 to not have a penalty.
Fortune
Technically you should only need a Quickness of 6 in that example, as you only get a penalty if the Armor Rating (excluding FFBA) exceeds your Quickness by 2.
Nalanthi
Outdated, post follows. The cannon companion errata makes this post irrelevant. I lose

QUOTE (Edward)
Long coat (secure, Mortimer whatever)† 4/2
Rapid transit heavy jump suet 2/4
Full form fit 4/1
Forearm guards 0/1 all stacking

This gives me a total armor of 6/6 required qui 6

I personally see no problem with layering as it is really pretty hard to layer up to be better than security armor, and is about as consipicous. Sure runners can have gear as good as the average corp hitman, the just have to be more inventive.

This thread seems to be clashing with one of my takes on ffba though. CC says that "form-fitting armor can be worn with other armor does not affect the character when calculating penalties for Combat Pool Loss." This does not seem to cover the penalties to quickness listed in the armor layering section. So a quickness 6 character wearing your combination of armor would have and effective quickness of 2 for movement and suffer a +4 on all quickness related tests.

Am I insane or is this indeed the case?

Nalanthi
Necro Tech
Your thinking combat pool. Quickness is every point over balistic.
Necro Tech
Check the errata about form fit.
mfb
QUOTE (Edward)
Long coat (secure, Mortimer whatever) 4/2
Rapid transit heavy jump suet 2/4
Full form fit 4/1
Forearm guards 0/1 all stacking

This gives me a total armor of 6/6 required qui 6

that's 7/5, not 6/6.

ballistic: 4 base (longcoat), +1 from Rapid Transit, +2 from formfit.
impact: 4 base (Rapid Transit), +1 from longcoat, +0.5 from formfit (rounds down to +0).
hahnsoo
Remember that forearm guards only add 1 impact for the purposes of melee combat. There are a lot of instances where you use Impact armor, but it isn't in a melee situation, and forearm guards do not apply.
Edward
QUOTE (mfb)
QUOTE (Edward)
Long coat (secure, Mortimer whatever) 4/2
Rapid transit heavy jump suet 2/4
Full form fit 4/1
Forearm guards 0/1 all stacking

This gives me a total armor of 6/6 required qui 6

that's 7/5, not 6/6.

ballistic: 4 base (longcoat), +1 from Rapid Transit, +2 from formfit.
impact: 4 base (Rapid Transit), +1 from longcoat, +0.5 from formfit (rounds down to +0).

I was calculating as the rules in the book say, only the best two armours apply. Also you didnít include the forearm guards although they only apply in melee.

ballistic: 4 base (longcoat), +2 from formfit (+1 from Rapid Transit ineffective due to being third
impact: 4 base (Rapid Transit), +1 from longcoat, (+0.5 from formfit ineffective for being third) +1 forearm guards in melee only..

Edward
mfb
the books don't limit you to two layers, though. you can wear as many layers as you want.
John Campbell
QUOTE (mfb)
the books don't limit you to two layers, though. you can wear as many layers as you want.

You can wear as many layers as you want. Only the two best layers count.

Full rating of the best layer. Half rating of the second-best layer. That's it.
toturi
That is no-doubt by the book. But the problem lies in determining which is the best and second best layer.
mfb
hm. that's actually dumb enough that i'd never noticed it.

i determine "best" for ballistic and impact seperately.
toturi
QUOTE (mfb @ Feb 18 2005, 12:36 PM)
that's actually dumb enough that i'd never noticed it.

I'm a dumb kind of person. embarrassed.gif
The White Dwarf
Be sure you guys are checking for quickness related penalties *before* the armor values are halved. Wearing a 5/3 and a 2/4 is 7/7 for penalty purposes, even if its only 6/5 as an armor value (random example). The actual armor values are what encumber you, even if its less effective in total.
Rolemodel
Re: Two armors. Agreed, and absolutely. There are plenty of ways to munchkin out a combat monster without having to rely on the obvious D&DPlatemail+Kevlar approach.

Keep it at two, and enforce quickness penalties whenever possible. Otherwise your lethality levels will be remarkable low.

-RoleModel
BitBasher
QUOTE (The White Dwarf)
Be sure you guys are checking for quickness related penalties *before* the armor values are halved. Wearing a 5/3 and a 2/4 is 7/7 for penalty purposes, even if its only 6/5 as an armor value (random example). The actual armor values are what encumber you, even if its less effective in total.

You make a good point that many people miss. This especially matters when layering three pieces.
Shockwave_IIc
Personally i allow as many layers as you want, but i use the FULL rating to determine quickness/ Combat pool Penalties not just the rating it adds to your armour value.

Jacket 5/3
Jumpsuit 2/4
Vest + Plates 4/3

Your needing a quickness of at least 13 to be able to ignore all penalties while only getting an armour value of 8/6. (I round down to a minuim of 1)
mfb
i do the same.
Narmio
Hmm, lots of different viewpoints, and apologies to The White Dwarf and other jaded viewers for getting worms everywhere. I'm leaning towards his Option 2, effectively giving everyone who can afford form-fitting armour +2 ballistic. Time for the corp containment teams to buy some EX rounds. After all, all the runners use them...

Another question that's arisen: Security/Military armour and form fitting. My belief is that if you're wearing a huge incredibly expensive suit covered in ceramic plates you just SHOULDN'T wear a tiny, thin, ultra-concealable body suit underneath, for the same reasons you can't use vehicle armour and concealable vehicle armour on the same car: It's stupid. However, players will be players, and they want their undersuits with the Lollipop Guild logo embroidered on.

If I don't allow that, then security armour *does* suck. At best 8/6 and obvious, when a secure jacket, armour vest with plates and form fitting suit is 9/6 and at least semi-concealable. Armour degradation and quickness requirements aside for the moment.

Or perhaps allowing security armour to be layered with form fitting, but not hardened military, which isn't too bad from a game balance perspective (Keeping in mind that none of my players have ever gotten military armour, availability is a bitch, and (sometimes) so am I).

OK, can opener, check, one litre can-o-worms, check. Here goes!
BitBasher
If I remember correctly it specifically says that milspec and Security cannot be layerd with other armor at all except a helmet...

QUOTE
If I don't allow that, then security armour *does* suck. At best 8/6 and obvious, when a secure jacket, armour vest with plates and form fitting suit is 9/6 and at least semi-concealable. Armour degradation and quickness requirements aside for the moment.
If you use armor degradation rules there's a damn good reason that you use security armor. Those stacked pieces of soft armor will both degrade from a heavy pistol shot while the security armor and mislpec will not.
toturi
QUOTE (BitBasher @ Feb 19 2005, 08:40 AM)
If I remember correctly it specifically says that milspec and Security cannot be layerd with other armor at all except a helmet...

QUOTE
If I don't allow that, then security armour *does* suck. At best 8/6 and obvious, when a secure jacket, armour vest with plates and form fitting suit is 9/6 and at least semi-concealable. Armour degradation and quickness requirements aside for the moment.
If you use armor degradation rules there's a damn good reason that you use security armor. Those stacked pieces of soft armor will both degrade from a heavy pistol shot while the security armor and mislpec will not.

Armour Degradation Rules: Applies to Hardened Armour too. So run it by me, how doesn't sec or milspec suffer from degrade?
BitBasher
Whether or not armor degrades is determinde by the power of the attack versus the armor rating of the piece. The higher the armor rating of the piece the far less chance it'll degrade from getting hit.
Fester
I have been toying with the idea of having every full multiple of 3 (total, both imp and ballistic) points of worn armor remove a combat pool dice from use. So wearing a Lined Coat would take away 2 dice, wearing the 5/3 vest would also use up 2 dice. Each point from Form fit would count as half for purposes of this rule. The 5/3 vest and forearm guards would take away 3 dice.

Once a person is down to zero usable combat pool dice then for every additional 3 full points of armor the TNs to hit the person would drop by one.

Criticize this. Let me know what you think of it as a house rule.
Fester
nm - moving it to its own thread
Fortune
QUOTE (Shockwave_IIc)
Personally i allow as many layers as you want, but i use the FULL rating to determine quickness/ Combat pool Penalties not just the rating it adds to your armour value.

Jacket 5/3
Jumpsuit 2/4
Vest + Plates 4/3

Your needing a quickness of at least 13 to be able to ignore all penalties while only getting an armour value of 8/6. (I round down to a minuim of 1)

I'm not following your math here. The total (unmodified) ratings in your example would be 11/10 (5+2+4/3+4+3), so why would a person need a 13 Quickness to avoid penalties? Wouldn't they need only an 11?
John Campbell
QUOTE (Narmio)
If I don't allow that, then security armour *does* suck. At best 8/6 and obvious, when a secure jacket, armour vest with plates and form fitting suit is 9/6 and at least semi-concealable. Armour degradation and quickness requirements aside for the moment.

The problem is drastically reduced if you stick to the rules for armor layering, because Secure jacket + armor vest with plates + FFBA does not give 9/6. Securetech jacket + half of armor vest with plates == 7/4, and requires a 9 Quickness. You might as well not wear the FFBA at all.. it adds nothing. Or drop the vest, wear Securetech and FFBA, and get a 7/3 and drop the Quickness requirement to 5.

In any case, any of the security armors with helmet are better, though they require higher Quickness. (That's something that's kinda wack, anyway... why is Quickness the attribute used to limit armor? Strength or Body would make more sense.)
Da9iel
Covered on a previous thread--the armor has its effect on strength through encumbrance (if enforced).
John Campbell
Don't even get me started on the encumbrance rules.
Da9iel
Hence the "if enforced." I know they are stupid.

"Poor troll. He was helping me move my couch when suddenly he passed out from exertion." sarcastic.gif
Zeel De Mort
QUOTE (BitBasher)
If I remember correctly it specifically says that milspec and Security cannot be layerd with other armor at all except a helmet...

Military armour specifically says it can't be layered with other armour. Security armour doesn't say so, so I assume you can. At least with anything sensible, e.g. FFBA would be okay under it I guess.

Military is totally the way to go though!
Shockwave_IIc
QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (Shockwave_IIc @ Feb 19 2005, 09:48 AM)
Personally i allow as many layers as you want, but i use the FULL rating to determine quickness/ Combat pool Penalties  not just the rating it adds to your armour value.

Jacket 5/3
Jumpsuit 2/4
Vest + Plates 4/3 

Your needing a quickness of at least 13 to be able to ignore all penalties while only getting an armour value of 8/6. (I round down to a minuim of 1)

I'm not following your math here. The total (unmodified) ratings in your example would be 11/10 (5+2+4/3+4+3), so why would a person need a 13 Quickness to avoid penalties? Wouldn't they need only an 11?

Yeah your quite right Fortune. Not to sure what i was thinking. Apart from i must of still been asleep some how.
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