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BlackSmith
After M&M hit the subsystem parts for Smartlinks i was wondering a way to make it as legal as possible, thus i ended up this.

Induction pad -> datajack
eye display -> image Link
Ltd. Simsense Rig -> Baseline cyberware Simsense
Smartlink-2 processor - Math SPU

other parts work nicely except ballistic processor. after compareing the prices and what they do i tought that it would be OK to reduce Math SPU's essence cost from ballistic processors price. if you get the Math SPU 4, it has the same essence cost of Ballistic processor thus it could do the same things or even more because of the high price.

so what do you think?

note that this would increase the smartlink systems price for 311,1K AND it needs all parts to be separetly connected to work.
The White Dwarf
Yea, except for the processor. The processor is the heart of the smartlink, and is the only difference between one and two. Its the only thing you cant substitute. You can make the other parts legal, and finding the processor would be hard without cues like the induction pad. So, yes to all substitutions (assuming you connect them with routers) but no to the math spu; you just cant swap that component.
BlackSmith
note that Math SPU 4 is HardCore calculator thus it would beat Smartlinks processor anytime thus IMO it would not need the Smart processor.

so you say you would need the processor for adition for the Math SPU 4 OR reduce the essence cost but you would still need the Smart processor? thus you would have to pay from it but sufer no additional essence loss.

the last one sounds good to me.
Modesitt
I view a smartlink system as being something like a Macintosh. You can't just take an off the shelf Pentium 4 and install it in your Mac. It may be more powerful than what's there already, but it doesn't work.

Just get a permit. Or get them built into sunglasses. Honestly, are the cops going to stop everyone on the street with a pair of mirror shades on the assumption they're a shadowrunner?
Siege
The problem is the smartlink processor does more than just crunch numbers --> it is a specialized chip with a ballistics/trajectory program embedded in the chip programming.

The Math SPU is a more open-ended chip, designed to provide raw number-crunching power.

Now, if you loaded the ballistic program found on the smartlink processor onto a skillsoft that used the math SPU to crunch the numbers, that would probably work better.

Granted, just my interpretation.

-Siege
BitBasher
the Smartlink Provessor does more than pure math functions. It interfaces and handshakes with the gun, controls and coordinates data with the other components, sends feedback to the limited simsense rig, and also does math. The Math SPU does math ONLY. I would not allow a single purpose CPU such as a Math SPU to replace a Multifunction Processor like a Smartlink Processor, they are two entorely diffeent pieces of hardware.

And it would be damned inconvenient to have to physically connect a datajack cabe to your gun every time you wanted to use a smartlink, that would use the entire first pass IMHO to be ready for combat, and the gun is still illegal...
Ed_209a
How about a "pad glove"?

It would be an induction pad built into a glove, with a short cable to plug into a datajack, ideally at your wrist.

You have the convenience when you need it, and you can just get rid of it when you try to get through airport customs.
Cain
That would effectively be a Smartgoggles system, with the costs increased for improved concealability. You'd get the same benefits as a smartgoggle system.
BlackSmith
QUOTE (BitBasher)
the Smartlink Provessor does more than pure math functions. It interfaces and handshakes with the gun, controls and coordinates data with the other components, sends feedback to the limited simsense rig, and also does math. The Math SPU does math ONLY. I would not allow a single purpose CPU such as a Math SPU to replace a Multifunction Processor like a Smartlink Processor, they are two entorely diffeent pieces of hardware.

wow. wait a minute.
M&M specialy states that the processor calculates the ballistics, nothing more.
about the other functions, every cyber part does that when linked via router or datajack thus the parts can be "programmed" to talk and exhange data.
so the data exhange is not a problem.
QUOTE
And it would be damned inconvenient to have to physically connect a datajack cabe to your gun every time you wanted to use a smartlink, that would use the entire first pass IMHO to be ready for combat, and the gun is still illegal...
strange.
after M&M, there has been 2 or 3 characters that have been created that have used the induction pad. all others (~50) use the datajack. if you see a induction pad you can asume that he has got smartlink. you can't asume a smartgun system from datajack.
clever, eh?

note that new pentuim 4 3.0Ghrz CAN do the same tricks than old machintos.
it eats up more processor performance compared to mac but it does pull it off.
Crusher Bob
Since the ballisitc processor task is relatively simple, I see no real reason why a very good general purpose processor with some optimized code can't do what you ask... considering that an 387 (need the floating point unit) can probably provide you with real-time aiming data (anyone know about what class of proc is used in the tank aiming systems today? The ballisitc processor does the same job. A delay of say .001 seconds is more than quick enough and at 10E6 Flops thats 10e3 Flops to do your aiming calculation.

Of course if you really care about your essence that much, you can use and exterior processor and only send 'in' the sim-sense data you need. so your induction glove talks to the gun, the processor in the glove turns the gun data into sim-sense (or whatever) and sends it to your datajack. A whopping .16 essence saved.
Ed_209a
QUOTE (Ed_209a)
How about a "pad glove"?


I fear I wasn't clear enough in my earlier post.

I'm not proposing an all-in-the-glove smartlink solution. Like Cain said, that would just be a different type of smart goggle. Neat idea, btw.

I'm proposing the padglove as an accessory for someone who has the complete smartgun rig, but with a datajack replacing the induction pad. They could either plug the gun directly into the datajack, or plug the glove into the datajack, and use the glove's I-pad.
Crusher Bob
The main difference between the smart goggles and the full on smart rig is, imho, the 'extra info' you get from the simsense rig that is part of the full smart rig (i.e. the best .08? (might be .16) essence you ever spent). Since an 'external' sim-sense rig would probably not work so well, you will definitely need that, where the acutal processing gets done should not be that important. Also we know that you can use a smartlink in clod climes (smartgloves must be available) and that riggers links via DJs hove no real problems, so the smartglove hooked into the datajack seems to be one of the simpler ways of saving a bit of essence.
Cray74
QUOTE (BlackSmith)
Smartlink-2 processor - Math SPU

The Math SPU is not equivalent to the Smartlink Processer. There's more to the ballistics calculations than just math - there's also data input and output, from simsense to calculation code to eye displays.

Sure, the Math SPU can run the same calculations as the Smartlink Processor, and probably faster. That doesn't give it the ability to turn simsense input from simrigs into numbers that fit the ballistics calculations.

I'd suspect you could emulate the Smartlink Processor with some memory to run the I/O and GUI software. I have no idea how much memory would be appropriate, though.

I'd question, though, if you could match the smooth interface of a smartlink with home cooked software. It'd be a fun run to get the source code used by Smartlinks.
TinkerGnome
Also, think proprietary software and hardcoded chip-based operations. The smartlink is a steal at the price, and I'd say the companies would be leary about letting someone else cut into their sales.
Crusher Bob
All of the operations involved are very well understood. Ballisitcs goes all the way back to catapults and simsense is something the is used by almost eveyone in the setting, there is nothing that 'special' abount the mathematics required to process the information.

I find the much more interesting question to be "Just how limited is the 'limited' sim-sense rig included in the package?

And all those companies that sell graphing calculators are worried about the desktop pc eating into their market share rotfl.gif . The math-co is a much more expensive and capable piece of gear that is being used to duplicate the performance to a (cheap) specialist part.
BitBasher
QUOTE
if you see a induction pad you can asume that he has got smartlink. you can't asume a smartgun system from datajack.
You cannot see an induction pad, it's subdermal or below the skin, it even says that in the description.
Crusher Bob
He might be talking about more in depth scanning that that...

Inductiion pad + limited simsense rig + processor of some kind is probably a smartlink (esp if you can pin it down as the type of hardware specific ballisitic proc).
While datajack + math SPU + limited simesense rig is mostly just a random collection (of legal) cyberware.
The White Dwarf
Well Blacksmith you asked, and everyone gave pretty much the same answer. From the sound of it youve already made up your mind on the matter. Do what you will but general consensus is that you need the processor, and that math spu is inadequet.

I dont think the datajack is such a big deal, you can just leave a wire plugged into your gun in your coat; it could just be you plugging into a jukebox or a dni-p-sec so not that big a deal. On the other hand, the subdermal pad isnt a big deal either, most shadow-personel wont care about it and you dont shake hands with a lot of norms, at least in my games.
TinkerGnome
Well, technically, I think you can hook up a datajack anywhere on the body. There's no stopping you from having it in your arm or shoulder somewhere to make it much easier to conceal the wire.
Cain
M&M does say that the induction pad is "detectable by touch". So, to answer Ed209's question, the glove adaptor trick would be fine; all you need is an induction adaptor, with maybe a small cost increase for the extra fabric and concealability.
Siege
Go back to the glove, but the signal feeds from the glove into a cable snaked up a sleeve and plugged into a datajack.

It's internal and counts as a smartlink rather than a smartgoggle array.

-Siege
mayhem
QUOTE (Siege)
Go back to the glove, but the signal feeds from the glove into a cable snaked up a sleeve and plugged into a datajack.

It's internal and counts as a smartlink rather than a smartgoggle array.

-Siege

I had a similar idea, but it was a shock glove to which the induction pad was added. The fact it is linked to a datajack means the shock effect could be switched on and off at will.

Useful for close combat and ranged combat. biggrin.gif
SugarDog
If Smart systems calculate ballistics, how do they know the range? I.e., the system would ahve to know how far away the target is that you are aiming at in order to calculate where the bullet would land. I ask because this has come up in gameplay. The only way I know would be to use some sort of laser sight (invisible to normal eyes, of course. You would probably want to avoid the UV and IR bands too) that is bounced off whatever you are aiming at. Thus, detectors for smartlink range finders beam could be made for early detection.

Always needin new ways to foil the players smile.gif
BitBasher
This is just my opinion, but if someone used a datajack and cable, or glove at all they would lose the benefit you get from using "all cybernetic components" because the glove and data cable are not cybernetic. So the SL would give a -1 and not a -2.
TinkerGnome
QUOTE (SugarDog)
If Smart systems calculate ballistics, how do they know the range?

The gun uses a sensor (not a camera, but something similar and useless for recording) and triangulates that with the image it gets from your eyes. Probably.

Adding an actual rangefinder helps at longer ranges.
Siege
QUOTE (BitBasher)
This is just my opinion, but if someone used a datajack and cable, or glove at all they would lose the benefit you get from using "all cybernetic components" because the glove and data cable are not cybernetic. So the SL would give a -1 and not a -2.

Using a datajack to plug into a smart-equipped gun offers the same bonus as grabbing a smartgun with a palm-enabled smart system.

So, using a datajack that plugs into a glove that links to the smart weapon should follow the same logic.

All the critical systems are still internal.

-Siege
AK404
*blink*

Hey wait a minute. Does this mean that if I wanted to upgrade my SL cyberware to SL2, all I'd need to pick up and replace is the processor? eek.gif
Siege
QUOTE (AK404)
*blink*

Hey wait a minute. Does this mean that if I wanted to upgrade my SL cyberware to SL2, all I'd need to pick up and replace is the processor? eek.gif

Basically, yes.

Without snagging the book and looking up the reference, I'm pretty sure the only critical difference for the cyber system v1 and v2 is the smartlink processer.

-Siege
BitBasher
QUOTE
Using a datajack to plug into a smart-equipped gun offers the same bonus as grabbing a smartgun with a palm-enabled smart system.
do you have a quote to back that up? because I can provide a quote that says all systems must be cybernetic.
Siege
QUOTE (BitBasher @ Sep 11 2003, 01:19 AM)
QUOTE
Using a datajack to plug into a smart-equipped gun offers the same bonus as grabbing a smartgun with a palm-enabled smart system.
do you have a quote to back that up? because I can provide a quote that says all systems must be cybernetic.

I'll have to look through the BBB, but in first edition it was listed.

I'm looking, I'm looking.

I will point out that in the description of the BBB, it says "typical systems use a subdermal induction pad", page 301.

The implication being there are other options besides the subdermal induction pad.

However, I will <edit>find</edit> the quote cause now it's nagging me.

-Siege
Siege
QUOTE (BitBasher)
QUOTE
Using a datajack to plug into a smart-equipped gun offers the same bonus as grabbing a smartgun with a palm-enabled smart system.
do you have a quote to back that up? because I can provide a quote that says all systems must be cybernetic.

Ok, got it.

Man and Machine, page 32.

"Some users may wish to avoid the palm pads (detectable by touch), preferring to jack a smartlinked gun through a datajack instead."

-Siege
The White Dwarf
Plugging a datajack directly into the gun is different from plugging it into a glove with a pag to the gun; there is an additional non-cybernetic link in the chain there. I understand that it might look similar on paper, but when youre dealing with something like shooting, where precision matters, something as simple as the glove's fit to the hand could cause error (remember that a limited simsense rig is part of the package here). Because the glove could slide a bit, making the smartlink off a bit, a case can be made for the non-cybernetic modifier rather than the full bonus; and I would make such a case were I gm-ing. Its clearly stated, and if you want to go the non-detectable route there should be some tradeoff in use for the advantage.

And yes, if you want to upgrade your smartlink you only need to use surgery to swap the old processor out for the new- still a fairly difficult procedure if memory serves but not all that expesive to do.
Herald of Verjigorm
The special part about being entirely cybernetic is not that all parts must be implanted. The important part to remember is that any system grows less accurate the more times data is translated between forms. In this case, the forms are very different: digitally encoded trajectory data and a sophisticated distributed fuzzy logic system.
A concrete 2 has less meaning in a system built to handle uncertainties and incomplete data sets. Likewise, "probably" is hard to translate into a mathematical form without some massive overhead.

As long as the only translation of logic types is at a simsense rig, you should get the full -2 TN bonus.

QUOTE
something as simple as the glove's fit to the hand could cause error
And an ungloved hand may grip the same gun differently two different times, will you declare that such an error negates half the benefit in that case as well?
Cain
Let me make this suggestion, then. A typical smartgun is wired to work with an induction pad, and not a datajack. You'd need an induction adapter to make it work. Why can't those induction adaptors come in the form of gloves?

Not to mention, what happens if the character is wearing gloves in the first place? Dos his smartlink cease to function? What about those in heavy armor?
The White Dwarf
No, the hand gripping differently wouldnt be the same necessarily. The limited simsense rig (presumably in the firing arm, Id imagine) could tell that youre gripping it a bit lower, or a bit angled, and work from there. With the glove, the rig might tell you one thing but the thickness and position of the glove could (in theory, the induction pad is a bit bulky from the sound of it) cause issue. And its the same glove youd be using in an external smartlink. Thus the chain is not all cybernetic, and theres a possible (on some level) reason to explain the game mechanics, thus Id stick to them and say only -1 bonus if you use a glove. Im not saying this is some kinda iron clad theory that completly explains smartlink, just that the rules say "it works like xxx" and in this case I can come up with an example that supports the "like xxx" bit, so Ill go with it.

edit: Oh about the armor. Given that most armors like security and military etc can have smartlink built in, Id definatly give some thought to the idea of making implanted smartlinks not work in them, its very plausible the armors thickness would block the flow of the induction pad. This is one case where a datajack linked smartlink would work more easily (armor obvious anyhow, just put on armor, plug in gun, and go) and more plausibly. Alternativly you could make a case that the armor is custom fitted like form fitting, and that a system like would be used for gunnery is in the suit to link the smartlink to the gun, providing full bonus... but its not all cybernetic, so could go either way. This is one area that I think is more of a GM call for your setting. Given the fact that the -1 vs -2 isnt always as big as the other benefits of a SL-2 such as called shot or rangefinder Id have no problem telling someone who managed to get military armor (only happend once for us) its no longer all cybernetic, and I doubt theyd have any problem with that. YMMV.
Ed_209a
The fact that it is a _induction_ device confirms that there is no actual contact between either part.

Security cards that you wave in front of a sensor work by induction too. In essense, it is like a little radio transmitter.

In any event, there is only a range of a few cm.

Most glove materials (leather, polymers) would not degrade the signal much if at all. Heavy armor material would block the signal, but it's up to the GM if the armor has plates on the inside of the palm. I would say no, because anything thicker than wetsuit neoprene would be hard to work in.
Siege
There isn't a hard and fast rule for using a "smart glove" in the manner we're describing, so it falls to a matter of taste.

You can still "jack" your gun using a datajack instead of a palm-based induction pad as per cannon rules.

Sub topic of vague interest -- is there a clear definition of what the "limited sim-rig" does? My general conception is the device serves to make you "one with the gun". In which case, could that technology be applied to other devices? Vehicles? Melee weapons?

Not considering game balance, but does the logic hold? A character with a "bike-link" gets a -2 to handling the bike when jacked and simmed or a sword-wielding samurai gets a -2 bonus for being "in tune" with his weapon?

Idle thoughts.

-Siege
BitBasher
well yes kind of, a VCR subtracts its level from a number of target numbers while jacked in. I don't see that happening with a melee weapon as it would confer far less of a benefit.
Siege
My thought would be a cheaper version of the VCR -- no init bonus, but an upgraded version of the -1 bonus for a datajack.

I imagine it would be a popular bit of 'ware among go-gangs.

Any other opinions on the weapon theory?

-Siege
sapphire_wyvern
You could use a palm mounted induction datajack I suppose.
BitBasher
I would allow that but I think it would definitely require some abnormal hardware for the gun.
BlackSmith
we made a quite intresting house rule.

any part that calculates anything (e.g. SL, biomonitor, GPS, orientation system...) can use Math SPU's number cruching ability thus resulting to reduced essence cost equal to the MATH SPU's essence cost from the other parts.
there are some limitations.
Math SPU can take care only of as many subsystems equal to its rating and you have to pay the orginal parts price.

The system uses Math SPU for calculations thus it is legal but much more expencive and it needs to be linked separetly to math help needing parts.

and like early said, M&M states that pad can be found by touch.
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