This is a message to my fellow over-worked GM's.
I started running SR again after a two+ Year Hiatus and while the game started nice and low-powered as Ganger/street-level PCs it has recently escalated in power several notches in the course of the last few sessions, particularily with the addition of a new player and character, a Cyber-Troll from hell (Bod-19, Strgth-17 you know the drill).
Now I initially though I could handle the Troll; Panther Cannon and Dikoted Poleaxe included. Problem is, that to have something to counter HIM I over-powered the villain a fair degree, but if I hadn't he wouldn't have lasted 1 single initiative pass against the party...even with his Mooks drawing fire or shooting them full of holes...or at least trying real hard. The party is currently VERY heavy on the magic end with two full mages in the party (One Shaman and One Heremtic so they cover the spectrum) as well as a Phys Ad Sniper. Both the casters are Grade 3 now and the Phys ad is Grade 2. The 5th characetr is the only semi-reasonable character, a Bio-ware Monster who is very speedy and slightly insane (Has a flat-screen movie obessions and beleives life should eb like the movies, big explosions etc...). And HE has an obscene amount of dice for shooting Pistols with.
SO my basic problem is finding worthy challenges that won't paste the PC's all over the floor, something about their power-level. With two folks chucking 16S and 18D for firearms damage and one with a Sheep-ton of success for a 9m pistol Armor becomes a big issue unless there are otherways to negate firearms that I'm missing?
And Two Full Mages who can BOTH summon fairly nasty spirits (Average force of 8, last night saw a 10!).
I have two upcoming missions semi-planned;
1 - A trip to a Humanis Policub secret underground Lair underneath an abandoned Military airfield to stop a Gemocide Plan.
2 - A Trip to Transylvania to look for a cache of Ancient Magical Artifacts (Earthdawn-era stuff they'll never be able to use anyway) as well as locating the long-missing brother of a Friend.
#1 Has the potential for Military-grade weaponry, maybe old-tech, but that will surely be a killer even if I use old-tech on them. Though it has some potential for fun.
#2 Is going to be a heavy-magic adventure.
Either way could get them killed very quickly. So again the problem of Balance.
One of my options might be to re-start the game again and really play up the the street-angle. BUt if I do that I may lose some players.
Really could use some help on this, as I've gotten rusty with disuse.
Thanks in advance for any assistance.

Other Questions:
Quick Question while I'm thinking of it: Does APDS affect Spirit Immunity to Normal Weapons, I've been saying YES, but ti means they buthcer spirits now. Curious to know the official ruling on that. IF not it means I can use lesse power spirits and have them sticka round a bit.
Also Where/What are the rules on using a Spell-lock/Quickened/Anchored spell cast on another to ground spells to the Original caster? I Know Ritual Magic requires a Material Component, which a Lock would Qualify for, but what about Quickened and Anchored Spells?

They are really good at what they do. Consequently, they get offered really tough jobs which other people just can't do. Remember that there's a whole lot more to shadowrunning than combat, and that there's a whole lot more to combat than just standing around and shooting.

For killing spirits the only rounds that make your guns better are EX,EX-EX and Dig D's tempers.

Actually the PC's don't have much APDS. I think one of them has like a clip of it.
I did not actually know about the restrictiosn to begining PC's on Availibility, but since he joined the game late, letting it slide seemed to be the way to go.

I will start using the APDS as normal ammo rule for spirits, makes them a lot nastier thanks.

Thanks for the help so far.
Unfortunatley re-starting at this point isn't terribly fair to the Player who just joined two sessions ago, or maybe it is. We'll see.

An average size troll has a Body of 8, is 2.8m tall and weighs 225kg. This guy is almost 2.5 times as big. It is not inconceivable that he is over 3m tall and maybe 300kg. That's about 10 feet tall and 660 pounds. He should have trouble getting in and out of vehicles, walking through regular size doors, and walking down residential hallways. Be sure to multiply all his gear purchases by the troll modifier or give him some penalties for using the wrong size gear.

Add TN modifiers for levitating him. If he has invisibility cast on him, it doesn't cover up the noise he makes bumping into doorframes or the the resulting dings and dents. It also doesn't quiet the noise his big troll size boots are making or the sound of the stressed floor supporting him. He will make floorboards creak. In old run down buildings he has a good chance of falling through the floor, especially if he is jumping around or moving vigorously during combat with his polearm.

He should have difficulty maneuvering a polearm or assault cannon in any kind of restricted environment. And he needs to keep them concealed when transporting them. Supposedly an assault cannon will fit in the trunk of a Ford Americar (DNA/DOA), but not a 2m polearm. Don't let him take them everywhere without getting hassled by Lone Star, having them confiscated, getting arrested or on the Lone Star most wanted list.

For all the gun bunnies be sure to use all the TN modifiers. The GM screen lists them and is a free download. There's visibility, movement and cover plus wound modifiers. Oh yeah, using that assault cannon is going to be LOUD. It should draw attention. Ditto burst firing shotguns. Assault cannon rounds are 90 a piece with SI.

When you send them to Transylvania make them have a real good plan for transporting their weapons or make them leave them behind.

Oh, just remembered the Big Body killer. Check CC.14, caltrops. They do (Body)L damage, require a quickness test to avoid stepping on that 100 unexpectedly in a dark room may just kill said troll. Successes on the throwing test can stage damage up or add to Quickness test TN to avoid. Unless character is wearing heavy or armored boots, armor does not apply. If armor does apply, would it be impact like other weapons in that section? Dikoting them should increase damage to (Body + 1)M for each.

For 100, the troll could find himself making at least a Quickness 20 test to avoid 19L damage until he is out of the room. Dikoted he is looking at 20M damage.

Make it more fun and throw in some slip spray, M&M.114, it should modify the quickness test by +4 to +8, plus if they fall they should land on more than 1 caltrop. Coat them with cheap stuff like Pepper Punch for another 12L Stun to get both condition tracks into play. Hyper is a bit more expensive, but will raise TNs.

Spend another 130 for an IPE Concussion and IPE Offensive grenades and maybe get some chunky salsa effects. Or get them to jump around some more to dodge or pick up the grenade and throw it back.

Firstly, many runs have a no-kill clause. Also, I'm fond of making the defenses on a facility so beefy that they *will* kill any PCs making an assault, no ifs, ands, or buts. I just make sure this is known by the characters, and it enforces an out-think mentality, rather than an out-gun mentality. Social situations and legwork hiccups are helpful here.

Now, if you *do* want to outgun them without using things with calibers measured in meters, there's some options. Flash paks and superflash are damned helpful, upping tn#s by up to +6. Smoke grenades are also as helpful as hell. Facility design so that security has cover and intruders don't is *all* kinds of helpful. There was a suggestion in a book somewhere (I believe SotA'63) that pop-up panels could be used by security to get cover anywhere, while denying it to runners. They just press a button and use their handy little proximity beacon, and the get cover everywhere they go.

Also, SuperSquirt with DMSO and G-S works wonders, as does NuroStun grenades (how many runners forget their gas masks at home?). There's also strobing walls and fiber-optics for (semi)remote casting by security mages.

That's all that's falling off the top of my head. Good luck.

Put security guards behind tinted bullet proof glass. Why wouldn't they?

To go with what Large Mike said, in SSG there are edges and flaws for buildings that give TN modifiers to help defenders and hinder intruders. Incorporate them.

Try to cause them problems using the cheapest, lowest tech ideas you can. It deters the power escalation/arms race. And it is really humiliating.

If the troll is full of cyber, give him swimming lessons.

Have a nature spirit use accident and confusion powers on them. Cause him to accidently fall out a 20 story window. Shouldn't be hard to get him to trip, falls toward window, huge bulk crashes through, damage increases with distance fallen. Confusion will at least add to TNs and may cause them to wander about aimlessly. Combine with accident to get them to wander over by window and resist accident with higher TN modifiers.

Honestly if I were you, I'd put that party in between a conflict between an Angel, and a Demon. If not that at least find something to put some fear into them.

Do something really nasty to them. Make them think. Use those contact, social skills, etc.

Step 1) Given them a simple walkover job.
Step 2) Tell them later that night, somebody nuked the whole place, killing hundreds of innocents.
Step 3) Tell them that video from Step 1, of them raiding the nuked complex, has made it out on the internet. There's a 1M reward on their heads.

Now, they are the target. They have play defense all them time. And their only hope is to catch up with the other team and prove their innocence.

How do they FIND the secret underground lair?
How do they GET to Transylvania?
What do they do when a little, innocent girl stands in front of her daddy, because she doesn't understand things like racism and just knows that a scary man is going to kill him.
Who else wants a piece of them?
What if that troll's granny is going to be heart-broken if he doesn't make it to her place for Thanksgiving dinner?
How securely do they lock up at night?

And most of all: what happens to their karma when they solve all their problems with something as unimaginative as rolling edged weapons skill.

Simply asking yourself the question:

"How do these characters and all their obviously highly illegal and dangerous gear move around in the world"

For the magical characters:

"What keeps the high force signatures left by their handiwork from being detected"

That should eliminate or hamper 90% of your problems without resorting to *any* game stat or rule.

If that 10% is killing you, tell me why theyre able to survive a single shot from a sniper rifle by an even moderate level marksman. After you run the numbers and realize they cant, find a way to employ them the players will know about before hand, and watch them sweat.

Again thanks for the help and ideas (Many of which I will use).
I'm not having the problem of the players deliberatley trying to cheese-monger and bully me into having the game they want, but how to present decent challenges for their power level. Ie - Weapons that will hurt them without being over-powered, Armor that will let an important NPC/Villain live to fight and run away without putting them in Military-Grade Armor. Now that I know the rule of APDS vs Spirits, THAT at least gets easier, I can hit them with lower-power spirits that may have a chance of surviving.

Oh I should note one thing; The general issue of walking around armed has not been a big deal to-date because they live in a section of the Barrens I've labelled "Troll-Town" because well, as can be imagined, 90% of the Population is Trolls, with some Orks thrown in. The Remaining portion consists primarily of the Party as the Non-Troll Component...well excpet for the new member. I'll need to get my hands on the newest Seattle book soon and go over the rules and regulations and write-up cards for joe-avwerage lone-star cops in a Squad car. And SInce Troll-town is re-building that means the city will now be able to afford to send Lonestar to start patrolling Troll-Town. Hrm maybe even build a local Precint? Set up a shop to grant SINs to the residents...oh make it a RESPECTABLE place to live...hee hee oh yeah I'm going to have fun.

Oh here's a couple more questions I thought of:
Do Spirits have armor of anykind vs another spirits attack? Eg - A Fire Elemental chucks a Flamethrower at a City-Spirit, does the City Spirit get to reduce it any?
Also do the Barrier and Armor spells have an Obvious Physical appearance (Ie surrounding the mage in a shiny purple corona?). And What happens if either is permanently Locked/Quickened etc...to a mage? I assume that with Armor there would be little hinderance to moving around, but if one has perma-locked Barrier...does that put a Box of force around them? Would it hinder them walking through Doorways etc?

And lastly (For Now): Someone mentioned the Troll would have to be about 10' tall and over 800 lbs. Is there a way to calculate Height, Weight & Width vs. Body? Granted he has a 19 Bod but a large portion of that is Bioware or Cyberware and at least the Cyber should not contribute to the height.

Another Question that may be relavant; How much Kharma do various GM's reward as average? In a little to no-combat scenario I usually award 4 and with a heavy action/combat scenario I usually award 5-6 maybe even 7. I think I may have been too generous in my rewards and will start scaling back again; Say a blanket 3 for most sessions more for particularily good role-play or acts of heroism etc...though honestly thats the weirder part of the game to imagine. The world setting, the background and everything lends itself to crime and grime, rampant aggression and hostility and the concept behind the game itself does NOT lend itself to heroics. The characters are essentially criminals anyway you cut it, heroics? Not if they don't make money off of it!
Still I suppose thats the dichotomy of the game; Selfless Heroics in the Face of a harsh, Cruel world.
Okay I'll stop with the philosophizing about an alternative world that doesn't really exist.
*sigh*...You know you're a gamer when...

Sorry for all the questions but as I said I hadn't run the game in many years before re-starting, but I missed it terribly. Now of course is re familiarizing myself with the rules. Now to get my Rigger 3 back...*shudder* Drone Rules...*sigh*
Well I gotta start someday...time to start making them paranoid...

I generally hand out 3 karma a run. 2 if they've done everything through sheer force of arms. I encourage using ones noodle. I generally give 4 Karma to whoever was most impressive that game, or did the biggest share of the work,

Your players probably love their toys. And I would give them occasional opportunities to blow things up and cause mayhem with their panther cannons and dikoted weapons.

However, I would throw in runs that require discretion or perhaps don't involve combat whatsoever.

Such as:

Due to their impressive street reputation, a yakuza oyabun approaches the party. His daughter is being married and he requires extra security at the wedding. He is concerned about treachery within his own mob family which is why he is turning towards the runners. However, the runners must be discrete so instead of hardened armor and panther cannons, they must rely on armored tuxedos and hold out pistols.

well someone already answered about the ADPS. They defeat normal armor because of physics, which has nothing to do with the magic of a spirit's armor.

As for dealing with the cyber troll, easy. Set it up so that not all the meets go down in places where he can go.

He's probably right at home in the barrens, at the docks. in the darkness late at night. Does he go to the Mall? Do he tag along with the team that meets jonhnon in a chic club in a AAA rated distrcit? stroll into the office of a UDUB professor whoi has info? Meet with racists Yak bosses for a trade?

Any of these places will probably get the call to Lone Star. Sure mr cyber troll could probably eat a Lone Star cruiser for lunch, but what about the meet? Ain't gonna happen. The buz, the informant or the deal maker is going to be long gone and the nice lone star SWAT team will probably be sighting a line with a TOW rocket instead of a handgun. After a while, assuming he lives, Mr Troll will not be welsome in most watering holes outside of the barrens. ("HEY, isn't that the guy LS's looking for?" "yep" "and didn't they use a flamthrower at the last meeting?" "Yep" "He walked away but the bar was toasted?" "Yep" "LAST CALL!")As long as he stays in the barrens, fine, but that limits his usefulnmess.

Letting them get away with obviously badass weapons in there own aria is fine. Let them have an aria of the barons where they can carry there assault rifles around and maintain a reputation suitable to prevent people from trying to rob them blind to often.

Now, the run is to take place at a large corporate compound in a good part of town, there is a precinct house 2 blocks away and security is tight, each guard is within visual of 3 others at all times and they all were bio-monitors, the control room will instantly know if they take worse than L physical or S stun (will be found out with basic legwork), although some violence on the inside may be appropriate, entrance and exit must be done quietly.

Of the 15 runs I have been in maybe 5 had a component I was comfortable taking a weapon with a conceal below 5 on and most included a component where I wouldn’t want a weapon with a conceal over 9 (preferably nothing that will show up on a MAD).

Stats don’t determine size at all. I have seen short thin wiry men that where incredibly strong and as tuff as old boots. Bigger is not stronger, smaller is not faster.

Karma awards we see 1 for turning up 2-5 for the job (depending on difficulty and how well we did) and bonuses for smarts, RP, bravery as awarded on an individual basis.

Let them have there “we can wipe the floor with any all out combat situation” but don’t let that solve everything.

I would especially like to see them brought in for a willing extraction and have the mark get second thoughts when they blow everything away with BFGs and spirits that can take out tanks.

Edward

I think part of the problem I've been running into is that they haven't been doing a lot of standard runs of late. Their last run was a well-fiananced Rescue misison for a Wealthy friend. Need to give them more "Normal" Runs soon.

Have someone trace them back to their home and start a firefight., Have random bystanders killed by stray fire (APDS and cannon ammo punching through walls). Have the entire population of Troll-town up in arms because these tuskless worms have brought a fire down into their turf.

Back to the original post it sounds like the runners will have to do a little international travel through airports and customs points?

Have all I'ds checked out? Cyber scans for anything illegal? All magical objects under force 3? Permits for anything slightly dodgy? If they want a reason mention a G8 type summit going on at the time.

The other thing to remember is an old favourite, SWAT or in this age of AAA security first response magical security Elemental swat with every cop coming running for tea and medals.

Don't give the PCs just one target, 10 or 12 should do it split between the astral and the physical planes. Remember your not trying to kill the PCs unfairly but if their packing the punch you say then maybe your mages need some involuntary cyberware.

mummy!

I Have to play with this guy!!!


torz x

Did you notice the extra 25% cost for troll sized gear? If the PAC isn't modified, I'm not sure he could use it or he should suffer some TN modifers.

Of cause, some would argue he has thin, wiry hands that have no problem with firearms.

On the size thing, ask him how large he is in relation to other trolls. If he comes in as human sized, you might think about not allowing the +1 reach. I'm guessing that if you point out how much higher his stats are compared to the average troll, you can persuade him to say he is about the biggest, baddest troll around.

He lives in troll town? I would send about a dozen irate neighbors over with big sticks and beat his sorry troll butt for endangering the children in the community and being a general nuisance. (I might be nice and first send a delegation that asks for him to tone things down.) Use friends in melee modifiers to make sure they get the job done. Give some of them maximum strength.

Well I've decided that the best recourse at this poitn is to start taking away their goodies. Ie their fixer who'd been steering them pretty good and was VERY good to his employees. Well he's already leaving town for good and taking most of his crew with him.
I've decided that Troll-town is finally going to slide into respectability and beign more fully re-built than it has already plus the lock on sales is finally cleared so Residents can purchase buildings. But there are some catches. 1 - They have to have a SIN to purchase and Own. 2 - The Buildings aren't cheap.
Further when they get back Lone Star has set up a precinct there at the request of the City of Seattle, displacing the local Troll Gang (Peacfully under the condition that the Gang be offered Jobs with Lone Star) from their armored Stronghold. Meaning that basically now they will have a MUCH harder time walking around carrying weapons.
Further, some of their stranger ideas (BUildign a Hangar in the upper floor of the buildign they live in, or the Paranormal Animal Petting Zoo...) won't be able to happen due to strict enforcement of Building Codes etc...
They will also be enforcing a rule that all Residents MUST have a SIN and provide a convenient SIN reguistration center within the precinct that will have a No-charge, No Questions Asked policy as long as they are Sponsored by a SINned resident.
Should any of the PCs go for a SIN there will be issues...and I know at least one of them won't go for the SIN.
Then the paranoia-building begins.
They'll start to notice they're being watched; Small FLying Drones, Tracking and listening Bugs on clothes, gear and vehicles. People Following them, Watcher Spirits etc...
Then they become the victim of random attacks; Occasional Sniping, Rockets through the bedroom windows, small bombs in homes, cars and bed. Trucks trying to run them off the road.
Finally the terror begins to spread to their friends and family; The Wise old Uncle is mugged and brutally beaten. A Girlfriend is savagely violated, a Father is Shot, a Decker Contact is killed in his home (Maybe with evidence pointing to a PC....oOoo..)

I Love it when I get ideas in the middle ofr writing something.
Think I'll leave video-evidence showing one of the Characters entering the apartment and killing the Decker (Ah the Joys of Physical Mask and knowing the PC's favorite weapon!). Just have to make sure the body is discoverd late enough for any spell signatures to be gone...
Yeah I'm setting them up for some nastiness...just not sure what yet. Maybe it's time for the Aztlan connection to come for them...muah muah muah hahahahahahahha!!

If their group is combat heavy (it sounds like it) then just have them run up against themselves. As a GM I require a copy of each character, so on that day I'm not feeling too creative I'll just have them go on a run which eventually ends up with them engaging in a combat against characters with their exact stats, but their opposites will have the benefit of a leader running a Battletac system off-site, so they'll get a some light bonus cookies against the PCs, making for a decent combat. Yeah, it isn't a terribly mind numbingly amazing idea, but at least you'll solve that problem of responding to each PC with almost the exact same force they bring to the table, from there you can get a general idea where to start in terms of oppositional power for next time, and the PCs don't feel cheated because they'll get to use that super powerful weapon or wizzer toy they worked so hard to get. After that's over and done with then you can start cracking down on what they can and can't have.