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gamemaster
hey guys heres one for ya, we just initiated a new dm into our group and its going fairly well but his average skills for people in the game are different then the last gm.what are your guys average skill ratings for lets say,

gang members
knight errand security

ect... what would you have there AVERAGE combat skills be.


this is just as a curiosity question it has no other implementations in it.

in this paticular game the average skill ratings for the gang members is around 6-7.from what we could tell.though they might have been shadowrunners in disguise.

also do you think that shadowrunners just starting out are at the same par level as street thugs? i know every group is going to have there own way of doing it which is fine im just curius what the average is?

i know that the main book has definitions of the ratings and how they compare.
Smiley
Our game is by no means the norm, but the average level for any given skill is 6+.
Capt. Dave
QUOTE (Smiley @ Feb 27 2005, 01:58 AM)
Our game is by no means the norm, but the average level for any given skill is 6+.

Yeah, for security guards at upper-level corporate facilities, 6 is the mean rating.
Gang members tend to be around 4, unless it's a more powerful gang.

Our runners tend to start out better than gangers, with 6's or 5/7's in their area of expertise.

If you're looking for Knight Errant stats, take a look at some of the published Lone Star stats. Just substitute Ares equipment and add or subtract Skill/Attrib points to fit in with your game.
Smiley
QUOTE (Capt. Dave)
QUOTE (Smiley @ Feb 27 2005, 01:58 AM)
Our game is by no means the norm, but the average level for any given skill is 6+.

Yeah, for security guards at upper-level corporate facilities, 6 is the mean rating.
Gang members tend to be around 4, unless it's a more powerful gang.

Our runners tend to start out better than gangers, with 6's or 5/7's in their area of expertise.

If you're looking for Knight Errant stats, take a look at some of the published Lone Star stats. Just substitute Ares equipment and add or subtract Skill/Attrib points to fit in with your game.

Mainy because Shadowrunners are supposed to be better than average, to say the least.
Wounded Ronin
I thought that the game decrees that 3 is the average.
Glyph
From looking at the stats in places like the Shadowrun Companion, I would say a good rule of thumb for combat skills is:

1 or 2: Someone with very little training, such as a corporate secretary with a Tiffany Defender or a store owner with a Roomsweeper behind the counter.

3: Someone who is not primarily oriented towards combat, but who is often in potentially dangerous situations. Reporters, bartenders, etc.

4: Lower-end muscle such as security guards, Lone Star street cops, basic gangers, etc.

5: Higher-end muscle, more street-hardened and battle-tested. Organized crime enforcers, undercover cops, tougher gangers, guards at a corporate facility, etc.

6 to 8: People in dangerous professions who are well-trained, such as Amerindian tribal warriors, bounty hunters, company men, hit men, etc. I still don't think this is an uncommon level of skill - it is a professional level skill, but on the other hand, it is the level of skill you would expect from nearly any professional.

You could also see this level of skill [6-8] for any of the other NPCs listed above, if they are exposed to more regular danger. A bartender in an infamously nasty goth nightclub where fights always break out might have a skill of 6 or 7 in that Defiance T-250 shotgun behind the bar. A ganger who is a dead-eyed veteran of innumerable drive-by's and brutal clashes over turf might have 6 in pistols and edged weapons. They would be more the exception than the average, though.

QUOTE

also do you think that shadowrunners just starting out are at the same par level as street thugs? i know every group is going to have there own way of doing it which is fine im just curius what the average is?


As far as shadowrunners go, they are usually at leatst a step above street thugs. They are generally professional level, and usually on the verge of stepping up from professional to elite level. GMs who run lower-powered campaigns usually tone down the character creation rules to accomplish this.
TeOdio
I rarely have NPC skills higher than a 5. There are those "special" cases though. But on the average, my mooks are mooks. I run a very gritty campaign where the modifiers tend to run up high pretty fast, and even the PC's with good to great skills end up missing a good deal of the time. (It keeps the desire for combat at a minimum, as it's friggin dangerous!) I remember my ganger NPC with his club skill of 4 ended up doing a light wound to my Phys Ad Troll player rolling 12 dice. Not every NPC has to even be close to the equal of your PC's to be a challenge. It's all about circumstance. Maybe the real challenge is avoiding conflict altogether. The Shadowrun game system is built in with a great "LUCK" factor. I've seen the guy with 2 dice in stealth roll triple what the Stealth Adept rolled with his 10 dice. I've scored 2 11's with 2 dice and subject one of my players to a bad case of Lead Hose poisoning. People get real caught up in the number of dice, and it is important to a degree, but if play smart and try to think of ways to counter modifiers, add them to your opponents, and the like, you'll be far more effective.
nuyen.gif nuyen.gif nuyen.gif
JaronK
I always go for 2 for sub par (combat skills of your average worker drone), 3 for average (a guy who's been in some fights, a rentacop), 4 for trained or street tested (a lonestar cop, a ganger) and 5 for elites (SWAT member, Gang officer). 6 is extreamly rare.

JaronK
Crusher Bob
Here's the breakdown I tend to use:

Skill 1: did it a few times, or received a little format training
Samples: Getting CPR Certification (Biotech)
Not having to ask how to copy and paste files (Computer)
Skill 2: Formal Training or skilled hoobyist
Samples:
Soldiers with a few months of training
Slacker College Students
Skill 3: Early Professional
Skill 4: Professional / Well Trained
Skill 5+: Training, Experience, and Natural Aptitude

This puts most gang members at skill 2 when in comes to shooting stuff (how often do they practice again? (almost never))

I find the whole idea that the average gang member is 'good' with their weapon to be silly. Who trained them? How many thousands of rounds have they fired in practice?

Most cops will probably have 2-3 in thier shooting skills (plenty of practice, not usually very much usage)

Regular Troops will usually have 3, as they don't get to spend a lot of time in training either.

'Good' Regular troops, cops, etc will probably have 4s

Notice that this helps character backgrounds alot, a starting runner who is supposed to be ex SWAT (or whatever) has skills in the 5-7 range which would be believable. Not every wage mage is going to have will 6, sorcery 6...

Also, combat skills will tend to be 'lower' because training them tends to be expensive and they are not used on a day to day basis. Things that are cheaper/easier to train in (Athletics, for exaple) will usually have higher totals
JaronK
For gangers, I assume their primary combat skill is 4 (probably brawling or edged weapons, maybe specialized to knife or some such). If they don't have a pistol, they don't have that skill.

JaronK
Crusher Bob
Any combat skill that does not tend to require hospital time (ie hand to hand combat) can be practiced by getting into fights. Onces the guns and knives come out, it's much harder to learn how to do it right, the penalties for failure are much larger.

Of course, this dosen't address the 'will' required to do violence to someone else, which is what gangers will typically have in abundance. This makes their (low) skills seems more effective, since they are probably willing to use them.
The White Dwarf
3 is average, 4 is trained, 5 is professional. So a ganger is probably 4 in his primary melee stat and 3 in shooting. KE would be more like 4-5 in both. But the above poster had it correct; logic dictates where these fall, and logically those values can go up or down in a given situation. Normal 14 yr old kid ganger who thinks hes tough 3-4, hardened gang elder could easily be higher. Now what kind of ganger is average for your campaign matters along with what his average stats are.
Fester
So I am a new GM for this group, and they have been playing with the same GM for 10+ years, and the previous GM did things differently and so we are having transition issues, and metagaming issues. Like for example, they guess at skill ratings of opponents and they start analyzing wether they have appropriate skill levels or not, even though they arent counting in the ability of the "bad guys" to use combat pool offensively, so they incorrectly determine that the average skill level for the bad guys is 6-7, instead of a spread between 3 and 7 (7 being the leader of a well established and powerful gang in seattle, the rest being full members of the gang, not just scrubs). This is all despite the fact that they massacred the bad guys and came out virtually unscathed (i guess they wanted to fight paper targets?).

But I digress. What I really wanted to talk about is that one of the players plays a female face who just left the "escort" business to be a shadowrunner. I am trying to come up with the effects of an awakened version of syphillus or gonereah that she may have contracted the week before she quit being an escort. Though, I still haven't decided wether to do that or not. But I bet it would add some great roleplaying. What are your ideas on the matter. Sorry to hijack your thread, gamemaster =P

-Fester
Zephania
I look at it this way, average stats are 3 for most things so the average ganger gets 3s as does the average cop etc. An experienced guy gets 4s and elites get 5s.

Any one with more than this gets special treatment but to be honest I can screw the group up enough with half a dozen average guys if the players are stupid enough to go head to head.

As an aside to this I've started making smartlinks the norm for cops (too many law suits) and level 1 boosted preety common amongst organised crime types. It makes the players a bit more wary. The gangers nearly always get drugs as a scary touch.
Gyro the Greek Sandwich Pirate
The way I play it is a 3 in pistols is your average street cop, with maybe a 4 specialization in his particular model of pistol.

3s are average joes working their job, 4 is someone who is showing promise or does his job better than most, 5 is a real up and comer, like a manager or someone who is impressive at the shooting range, 6 is like a deputy vice president or a SWAT team member with a crack shot or a wiz decker, and seven and up you start to get special forces, drek-hot deckers and the like.

Twos are people who have practiced a bit down at the range or the mailstaff guy, one is, well, shot a gun a few times, etc.

But that's just the way I run it.
hahnsoo
QUOTE (Fester)
I am trying to come up with the effects of an awakened version of syphillus or gonereah that she may have contracted the week before she quit being an escort. Though, I still haven't decided wether to do that or not. But I bet it would add some great roleplaying. What are your ideas on the matter.

Real STDs are bad enough. If you want more information on STDs, you can look them up at the CDC's site:
http://www.cdc.gov/nchstp/dstd/personal_He...h_Questions.htm

As far as an "Awakened" version, I'd go with one edge and one flaw and apply them to the character secondary to the disease. For someone who has secondary stage Awakened syphillis, for example, I'd apply a Moderate Allergy to Sunlight (to represent the full body rash that develops) and maybe 1 to 3 boxes of pain resistance (peripheral nerve damage). Another possibility is Weak Immune System (-1) and some 1 point edge (College Education? Hah!).
gamemaster
im the face,and the history i gave him ,id have to say multiple awakened versions of std's would be more appropriate.she is by the way an ex escort but lets put that in perspective that means whore!.

and fester is right the group that hes now dming is a bit on the analytical side and was hard to dm at first.but alas i dont have to worry about it i just have to show up party ,have fun and stay behind the orc in the gun fight. i mean a girl that good looking isnt gonna break her nail on street scum.



BUT I JUST WANT TO SAY FOR THE RECORD IM HAVING A BLAST ,I AM LOVING SEEING THE PLAYERS SQUIRM UNDER A NEW UNPREDICTABLE DM.I ALSO LOVE SEEING SOMEONE ELSE THE TARGET OF BITCHING ,GRIPING,COMPLAINING ,AND ALL THE REWARDS THAT GO ALONG WITH IT.

I WOULD ALSO LIKE TO SAY THAT HE WAS RIGHT ,THE ONLY PERSON THAT GOT HURT IN THE FIGHT WAS THE KATANA WIELDING PHYSAD WHO THOUGHT SHE COULD JUMP IN THE MIDDLE OF 4 HARDENED GANGERS IN A MASSIVE RAIN STORM AND THINK SHE WASNT GONNA GET HURT.

THATS WHY THE FACE AND MILITARY STRATEGIST PICKED A SIDE SPOT TO HANG OUT AT AND NOT BE IN THE MIDDLE OF A SHIT STORM WHEN THE GANGERS CAME DOWN TO RAMPAGE THE BANK.

BECAUSE AS A PLAYER IN MY OPINION HARDENED STREET GANGERS ARE KINDA TOUGH AS TOUGH OR ALMOST AS TOUGH AS AN EX ESCORT.

ALSO ITS NICE TO SEE THE NEW GM USE COMBAT POOL IN A DIFFERENT WAY AS ME SO THE NUMBER CRUNCHING PLAYERS CANT ANALYZE EVERYTHING HE DOES.

ITS REFRESHING TO SEE THE RUNNERS NOT BEING ABLE TO GUESS EVERYTHING THATS GOING TO HAPPEN WITH THE NEW GM ,AFTER 12 YERARS WITH ME THEY WERE PRETTY MUCH ABLE TO READ WHAT I WAS GOING TO DO.

BUT THATS A WHOLE NEW THREAD. see ya friday fester.

jklst14
I try to keep skills low, with most people having 3's and the more elite opposition having 4's and 5's.

QUOTE (Fester)
I am trying to come up with the effects of an awakened version of syphillus or gonereah that she may have contracted the week before she quit being an escort.


As for STDs, I believe the Sprawl Survival Guide says they've all been cured. That's at least one good thing to look forward to in the future smile.gif
Tarantula
IT IS REALLY ANNOYING WHEN YOU TYPE EVERYTHING IN CAPS!
Fester
hehe cya friday

all cured???? *cry*
gamemaster
hey fester ,check your emails.i had a question for ya?

also tarantula not everyhting i wrote was in caps just the part i was yelling.
hahnsoo
Actually, the section you are referring to is on a shadowtalk section on page 50 of Sprawl Survival Guide, and it just mentioned the cure for AIDS. While the bulk of STDs were cleaned up, supposedly, this only means that people who have access to health care would have treatment for their STDs (which is mentioned in the following shadowtalk). So no, STDs aren't gone. As long as people are having sex, and health care coverage can only be afforded by the middle class or higher, and there are social taboos around sex, STDs are still going to be around.
Glyph
If the GM wants to be really nasty, he can give her an offsetting Natural Immunity edge for the ghoul virus, and say that one of her clients, unbeknownst to her, was one of the more well-adjusted ghouls with cybereyes and other cyber to mask his origins. But, while she couldn't catch the virus herself, she is a carrier now.

Imagine the group surrounded by a group of ghouls, who reveal that they are all ex-"customers" of the escort who got infected by her!

vegm.gif
Talia Invierno
All cured ... that were known before. There must be thousands of new variants on old diseases out there, some Awakened, some mutated (teragenic environments), some specifically developed.

Cures won't be researched unless there's a specific interest in curing that disease, by someone who has both money and clout. Business cost-effectiveness is in treatment, not cure ... and only if the market is large enough and affluent enough. Governments sometimes give grants to develop treatments against "orphan" diseases, those occurring very rarely within a population: and even today, megacorporations happily abuse those grants -- intended to finance research in new directions -- to promote existing products.

Complication wrt STDs is the database requirement of some jurisdictions, by way of trying to track down partners and limit spread. Depending on their ethics -- or lack thereof -- some street docs might have their own variant on this.

And even if a cure or treatment happens to exist for that specific version (or strain or species), you still have to know that you even need it, early on (many STDs aren't initially symptomatic, in females); you have to find a way of getting the treatment or cure; and then you have to have the money to pay for the cure. Of course, providing that the cure/treatment does exist in the first place, the last two shouldn't prove too much of a problem for shadowrunners, except in the hands of a particularly diabolical GM ...
jklst14
QUOTE (Talia Invierno)
Cures won't be researched unless there's a specific interest in curing that disease, by someone who has both money and clout.  Business cost-effectiveness is in treatment, not cure ... and only if the market is large enough and affluent enough. 

I think you make a lot of good points. It would be very Shadowrun like to have an evil megacorp withhold a cure because the treatment is more profitable.

I could see Universal Omnitech refusing to research diseases that affected the poor (say some new Ork diseases) while simultaneously aggressively marketing gene therapy for male pattern baldness.

On the other hand, the UCAS Army might aggressively vaccinate against, screen for and treat nasty awakened STDs simply because it's cheaper than having soldiers be sick.
Grinder
Back in my GM days, most opponents had all skills at 3. Worked out fine with using combat pool and clever use of tactics during the fight.

More important NPCs surely had skills of 4 and above.
Talia Invierno
QUOTE
I could see Universal Omnitech refusing to research diseases that affected the poor (say some new Ork diseases) while simultaneously aggressively marketing gene therapy for male pattern baldness.
- jklst14

Considering the equivalent is already happening today ...? There's far more money in discovering and working with new obesity genes than there is in finding a way to weed out sickle cell anemia without losing the anti-malaria link.
hahnsoo
Relevant link on Sickle Cell Anemia:
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/HEALTH/condit...le.cell.anemia/
tisoz
QUOTE (Talia Invierno)
Considering the equivalent is already happening today ...? There's far more money in discovering and working with new obesity genes than there is in finding a way to weed out sickle cell anemia without losing the anti-malaria link.

Aren't way more people affected by obesity though? And it is costing all kinds of money in health care because it directly contributes to things like heart disease, diabetes, asthma, hypertension, etc.. I wouldn't compare it to something as trivial as male pattern baldness, it hasn't led to nearly as many deaths.

The only way I can think to justify the comparison is usually made by people who have never had a chronic weight problem who tell the obese to simply have some will power and quit stuffing food in their mouth.

Then again, a corp like McDonalds would probably be making huge tax deductable contributions to such research so they can head off the impending lawsuits.
jklst14
Obesity is a major health problem and deserves major funding for research and treatment. That being said, it is also a potentially lucrative market for drug companies. There has been lots of positive buzz surrounding "Rimonabant", Sanofi Aventis' new potential blockbuster drug.

As for Sickle Cell, it is an awful illness. I've worked with dozens of kids with it and it's sad to know that few, if any of them will live to be as old as I am frown.gif
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