Hermetics can use their conjuring ritual to add services to an existing bound spirit. Can shamen conjure the same spirit to add services? Why or why not? Is it any more unbalancing than allowing hermetics to do so?

While I'm not sure if it states anywhere that you can or can't, I would not have a problem with a shaman adding services to a spirit rather than conjuring a new one.

if you're playing an obeyifa, it allows you to keep your spirit around without paying for new gris-gris (gris-grises? grises-grises? gris-griii?). for other shamen... i don't think it'd be that unbalancing.

Why not? I don't see it coming up very often though, because if and when the services run out they can use the exact same ritual to summon a new one.

Running off the top of my head here...

I would say no to adding services. The shamans already gets the benefit of not needing to use materials to conjure a spirit. The mages have to worry about the cost in summoning an elemental, especially pertaining to the strength of said elemental.

The main deficiency for shamans is the limit of how many at once they can summon per domain (1 per), but that's about it. The shaman once he has used up the services of a spirit can easily summon another one on the fly. The said cannot be said for a mage, he has to do that extra mumbo jumbo for more services, or wait till he has the time and resources and summon and bind another elemental to himself.

I think it's balanced the way it is without the shaman adding more services to the same spirit.

Sounds like a neat Metamagic to me.

Wait a second! Is there a difference in the ritual between a mage summoning an elemental and adding services? If there's no difference, why shouldn't shamans get the same deal?

When they are great form, hell yes.See, you have a great form ellemental,and add more serveses you do not have to invoke it,again.

If there's no difference, what's the point?

I suppose the point would be similar to pumping up services in an elemental. A shaman could summon/pump a spirit a couple of times, rest off the drain and have more services to call upon when needed. It would only work for using the spirit in the afternoon/early morning.

Great form. That is an interesting point. Could be very useful for shamans and mages alike!

hahnsoo: your GM is more generous than I would be.

i dont get the point of adding the services as a shaman anyways.... doesnt it take some sort of time to do this? i'm sure it CAN'T be instanteneous, and with their spirits ending at the end of the day, it just seems pointless to me... just keep bringing new ones in...

Doesn't a great form spirit still take off at dawn and dusk though?
Other than not having to do another invoking, I don't see a point.

Well, one obvious use is that a shaman on overwatch who's in the same domain as the rest of the part can just sit there adding service after service, so when something ugly happens, he'll be able to keep the same spirit going for a longer time without having to resummon.

JaronK

I thought spirits summoned by shamans go away at sunrise/sunset, meaning, no matter what they only have them for about half of a day max. Under such a circumstance, does it make more sense to make such spirits perform extra tasks? The big advantage of elementals is that they do stick around until all of their services are used. If a nature spirit hasn't had all of it's tasks used by the appropriate time, they leave. Wouldn't just be easier to summon again?

Sure, but for a high force spirit, it might take some work to get up to that level.

JaronK

so true. So on adding services, do you still check for drain? Seems like you should have to to keep it balanced, for shamans at least.

Though it's not too hard... I know for a force 8 spirit, my elven shaman takes 8M drain with a trauma dampener, resisting with 8 dice. He's unlikely to resist much, so he'll take two boxes of stun, and heal that in about 30 minutes. Then he can go again and raise the force. When on overwatch, or while getting ready for a run, this works well... he can summon a city spirit while driving there in the car (autopilot).

I think adding services shouldn't be available to shamen. It is in the game I'm joining, but I don't like it much, I think it's too powerful.

JaronK

Don't forget all, you can specialize as an urban or wilderness shaman--which means the spirits you summon disappear at the next sunrise or sunset, whichever comes last. You can have a spirit for a day and a night--at the expense of being able to conjure certain kinds of spirits. I had an urban wise warrior shaman. He never left the city (if he could help it) so it never affected him much. Rules on that are on MITS p 16.

As for the extending nature spirit services thing, the MITS thing specifies it's for elementals only--but I don't see any problem with a house rule allowing you to extend nature spirit services. It's not really unbalanced, and you could look at it as sort of bolstering your command over it or whatever.

[Edit: I wouldn't, because I think it helps make mages and shamans distinct, and I'm a canon freak, but hey--to each his own]

For hermetics it costs nuyen and many many hours to add services. Its identical to the first summoning. It alows them to pack an elemental with services to use in an extended combat operation or when they will be far away from the materials.

It would be unbalancing to have a shaman do it because each use of a power costs a service. He whips up a spirits, takes seconds to add services for free and uses it all through the run without ever having to re-summon and risk drain.

Hermetics pay money and time for the privilege. Its theirs alone.

Agree 100%. Also, what about shamans and great form spirits? If they could just get more services out of them, just like that, then they could go from domain to domain with whatever kind of spirit they liked (and probably got totem bonuses for) without worrying. When it was about to run out of services, they could just get more from it. Mages need the option to load up the elementals before a big run. Shamans dont.

Well, the hermetic ritual does require a hermetic circle (unless I misread), so I see no reason why shamen could replenish services from a great form when outside the appropriate domain.

That's true, I guess. But I still think it overpowers shamans. If so, they could go into any combat with a spirit with really cool powers and about a million services, because it takes them so little time to conjure compared to hermetics. As long as the spirit was reasonable force, that could be really nasty. Every group of sec guards gets confused and accidented and... all the way down the list. If they have to conjure and then reconjure, there's an exclusive complex action there in the middle of combat at least, which could make a big difference, IMO. Not that I've every played a shaman capable of summoning except as an NPC, but...