Many totems give a bonus of +2 dice to a school of magic. Are these dice like pool dice, able to be split up among the drain and casting tests; are they restricted to just +2 dice to cast the spell, or are they bonuses to both drain and casting of the spell?
So, for example, a cat shaman wants to cast force 5 Mass Confusion (cat gives +2 dice for illusion spells). He's got sorcery 6 and willpower 6, with 6 spell pool, and puts 4 pool dice into casting and 2 into resisting drain. He ends up casting with:
1) 10 casting dice and 8 drain dice, but he could add 2 to either of those or 1 to both
2) 12 casting dice and 8 drain dice
3) 12 casting dice and 10 drain dice.
Which is it?
JaronK
Full Version: Shamanic Bonuses
The main book isn't exactly clear about that, but I've read it as applying to both sorcery and drain resistance tests. Also, in MitS the rules about ritual sorcery say that the totem modifiers apply to both. Pages 37 and 38. So it'd be 3) 6 + 4 + 2 for sorcery test and 6 + 2 + 2 for drain resistance test.
Edit: minor rephrasing.
Edit: minor rephrasing.
Option #1 is the only option I have ever used, or even seen used.
Well yes, I read the focus rules and those bonuses can be divided between sorcery and drain resistance, but does it actually say the same for totem modifiers somewhere? In SR3, p. 163 under Totem Modifiers it says
| QUOTE |
| These bonuses and penalties are called totem modifiers. They add or subtract from the final number of dice rolled for particular tests, but do not otherwise modify the shaman's skill ratings. |
And in MitS pages 37-38, under Sorcery test and Drain resistance test it says
| QUOTE |
| Because the link to the target is already established, no modifiers apply to this test except for the leader's injury modifiers and the modifiers for his or her totem, patron loa, or Path of the Wheel. Shamans, houngans and Path of the Wheel followers may also apply any appropriate modifiers from their totem, patron loa or Path to the ritual sorcery Drain Resistance Test. |
I'd read 'modifier' meaning 'fixed bonus or penalty', and since they apply to both tests, I wouldn't divide the bonuses (or penalties), but add or subtract the said amount of dice for both tests.
Strictly by his example, he is dividing totem bonus between casting and drain. But to get the same effect he could apply the full totem bonus to either and shift a pool die to make it look like +1 die to each.
I had a Cat shaman and i only used option 1 form above!
torz x
torz x
| QUOTE (Jebu @ Mar 4 2005, 11:30 PM) | ||
And in MitS pages 37-38, under Sorcery test and Drain resistance test it says
|
The key word in that MitS quote is 'may'. If the Totem bonus always applied, then the rule would leave out the 'may', and state '... followers also apply appropriate modifiers from their totem ...". By adding the word 'may', the rules give the Shaman the option to use the Totem modifier for Drain Resistance instead of applying it to actually casting the spell or summoning the Spirit.
| QUOTE (tisoz) |
| Strictly by his example, he is dividing totem bonus between casting and drain. But to get the same effect he could apply the full totem bonus to either and shift a pool die to make it look like +1 die to each. |
Yeah, it usually only really makes a difference when no Pool (or only one Pool dice) is used.
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| The key word in that MitS quote is 'may'. If the Totem bonus always applied, then the rule would leave out the 'may', and state '... followers also apply appropriate modifiers from their totem ...". By adding the word 'may', the rules give the Shaman the option to use the Totem modifier for Drain Resistance instead of applying it to actually casting the spell or summoning the Spirit. |
There are reasons to not use your Totem Advantage, you know. When casting spells with an advantage, there is a -1 modifier to the TN to spot your spellcasting, which stacks onto the already nasty -2 you get for having a shamanistic mask, so you may want to forget your totem advantage for that reason. There's also the idea that you may not want too many successes for whatever reason, and so don't want to apply the totem bonuses. Maybe you don't want to delve too deeply into someone's mind, or Stunbolt them so bad you hurt them physically, etc.
That said, I think Option 1 is the more balanced of te choices, though I can see people deciding either way. If you're magic is going to be as obvious as pulling a gun on someone anyway, may as well make it a damn effective gun!
What if I told you the shaman bonus dice applied only to casting? Then you'd invest 2 less sorcery and magic pool dice on casting and two more on drain.
What if I told you the shaman bonus dice applied only to Drain? Then you'd invest 2 less sorcery and magic pool dice on drain and two more on casting.
What if... Oh never mind. The end reult is the same anyway : you roll 2 additional dice.
You even get them for spell defense, after a fashion. You can have, in your example, 10 casting dice, 8 drain dice and 2 spell defense dice. The bottom line is you have 14 dice available to you this round. If the GM tries to tell you the bonus dice can only go in one category, you just tell him they are in that category.
What if I told you the shaman bonus dice applied only to Drain? Then you'd invest 2 less sorcery and magic pool dice on drain and two more on casting.
What if... Oh never mind. The end reult is the same anyway : you roll 2 additional dice.
You even get them for spell defense, after a fashion. You can have, in your example, 10 casting dice, 8 drain dice and 2 spell defense dice. The bottom line is you have 14 dice available to you this round. If the GM tries to tell you the bonus dice can only go in one category, you just tell him they are in that category.
| QUOTE (Eyeless Blond) |
| There are reasons to not use your Totem Advantage, you know. |
Can you show me the rule that states using the Totem advantage is optional?
Um, the word "may"?
Sorry, a bit too lazy to go looking things up atm.
Sorry, a bit too lazy to go looking things up atm.
| QUOTE (Eyeless Blond) |
| Um, the word "may"? Sorry, a bit too lazy to go looking things up atm. |
The word 'may' in the earler quote refers to the Shaman choosing to use the Totem bonus for Drain Resistance, instead of using it to augment casting/summoning. From the context of the sentence, it isn't in any way saying that the Shaman can choose not to use his Totem bonus at all.
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| Can you show me the rule that states using the Totem advantage is optional? |
I hope it is because I often forget to add it.
So much for shamen picking their totem just to get those extra dice.
I'd still say the books aren't very clear about it when the only reference is the word 'may' in ritual sorcery rules. There's no 'may' in the sorcery test part, so it always applies there? And in addition it can be applied to drain resistance, because it says 'may' in there? And if you play with main book and no MitS, you 'may' apply the modifier whatever way you interpret the rule in SR3?
Whatever. As I said earlier, I've never known anyone to use it the way you suggest, and it would never work that way in my games.
I understand that, Fortune. I'd just like to know if there's a rule that's more clear about it. Seems there aren't. I agree applying modifiers to both rolls would make shamans more powerful, even if the same applies to negative modifiers, because most people don't pick much, if any, spells with negative modifiers.
In my game I always let them add (or subtract) the totem dice from all appropriate tests, if they had +2 for combat and they cast a combat spell then they get +2 for the casting nad +2 for the drain. It was never referred to as a pool, and I never saw a way to treat it as such.
It's also referred to in direct reference to Sorcery and Conjuring:
| QUOTE |
| TOTEM MODIFIERS A totem places certain restrictions on the shaman's behavior and use of magic. It also bestows various advantages. A shaman gains bonus dice when using Sorcery or Conjuring according to the totem's ideals. The shaman may also lose dice when using magical skills outside the totem's realm. These bonuses and penalties are called totem modifiers. They add or subtract from the final number of dice rolled for particular tests, but do not otherwise modify the shaman's skill ratings. Some totem modifiers require the player of the shaman to choose a particular bonus. This choice, once made, is permanent. |
This would imply that you add the totem dice in any use of Sorcery skill or Conjuring skill, but not the Drain test. So the Spellcasting test, Spell Defense dice (against the appropriate category of spell), Banishing, and Conjuring, but not Drain or Spell Resistance tests.
But it's definitely not clear.
That's what my group agreed on. It only says sorcery and conjuring and drain is damage resistance with its own test with its own rules. Also, crab shamans get a benefit to drain resistance in the form of +1 to all damage resistance tests.
Ritual sorcery is a stated exception which implies that it isn't an option at other times.
Ritual sorcery is a stated exception which implies that it isn't an option at other times.
Of course, a shaman can always effectively apply Totem bonuses to Drain, by allocating more Sorcery dice to the Drain test and letting the Totem bonus make up for the lost Sorcery dice.
But you don't get the bonus for both spellcasting and Drain. Ugh. That would give a Dragonslayer shaman the equivalent of 6 extra dice every time he uses a combat spell. Shamanic bonuses are powerful enough already.
But you don't get the bonus for both spellcasting and Drain. Ugh. That would give a Dragonslayer shaman the equivalent of 6 extra dice every time he uses a combat spell. Shamanic bonuses are powerful enough already.
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