Are there rules in around for large scale battles i.e. 50 - 100 participants? I have decided to take the runners on a semi mercenary experience the climactic finale may be a little daunting under the standard rules.
Any help = much appreciation.
Full Version: Mass Combat
One of the simplest is to simply run the 'area' of the combat that the PCs are involved in.
Are they commanding the action, fighting in the line, trying to accomplish their own objective while there happens to be a battle there,...?
All these things can effect the flavor of what happens...
One is to have the PCs effect the larger battle is to have then at the descision points...
Sample:
Assuming PCs are defending against a larger force:
Point 1: Prebattle preperation...
PCs have some time to motivate troops,. lay mines, prepare defenses, etc.
How well they do this effects the battle
Point 2: Battle is underway, bad guys bring out 'Champion" (Tank, spirit, mage, dragon, whatever)
The PCs have to take on the bad guy 'Champion'
Point 3: Couter attack/ last desperate stand...
Depending on the PC success in Point 1 and 2, they now have the opportunity to lead a counter-attack against the other force or they have to make a last desperate stand against the enemy.
So, several short 'battle encounters' that happen during the battle are made up, each of them effect the battle. (If you want more complexity, you can have the PCs pick who to send to what enounter...) So, the whole battle isn't gamed out, just the small battle enounters
Are they commanding the action, fighting in the line, trying to accomplish their own objective while there happens to be a battle there,...?
All these things can effect the flavor of what happens...
One is to have the PCs effect the larger battle is to have then at the descision points...
Sample:
Assuming PCs are defending against a larger force:
Point 1: Prebattle preperation...
PCs have some time to motivate troops,. lay mines, prepare defenses, etc.
How well they do this effects the battle
Point 2: Battle is underway, bad guys bring out 'Champion" (Tank, spirit, mage, dragon, whatever)
The PCs have to take on the bad guy 'Champion'
Point 3: Couter attack/ last desperate stand...
Depending on the PC success in Point 1 and 2, they now have the opportunity to lead a counter-attack against the other force or they have to make a last desperate stand against the enemy.
So, several short 'battle encounters' that happen during the battle are made up, each of them effect the battle. (If you want more complexity, you can have the PCs pick who to send to what enounter...) So, the whole battle isn't gamed out, just the small battle enounters
I came up with a problem like this in the spec-force campaign I'm writing. I ended up using the large scale battle as more of a plot device, without even using the mini-encounters described above. However, the large scale-battles (and the outcomes thereof) were really just background and not even at the climax of the run. The couple of times that the pc's had any influence on the battle as a whole, it was a matter of leadership and tactical knowledge, and they weren't exactly participants.
I guess what I'm suggesting is NOT to try to figure the battle round by round, but to come up with a couple of rolls that determine how the battle or phase of battle proceeds overall.
GM: "Okay, you manage to shoot down the cyber-zombie just before he tromps your command center. But since you got zilch on your leadership roll earlier, you notice that your unit has deserted you and you are currently alone on the battlefield."
I also came up with availability ratings for combat support, like air strikes med-evacs and stuff like that in case the pc's wanna use them, using military etiquette and target modifiers for battletac weather and stuff. And no I'm not gonna post 'em 'cause there's too many army guys on here that'll tell me what's wrong with my numbers.
I guess what I'm suggesting is NOT to try to figure the battle round by round, but to come up with a couple of rolls that determine how the battle or phase of battle proceeds overall.
GM: "Okay, you manage to shoot down the cyber-zombie just before he tromps your command center. But since you got zilch on your leadership roll earlier, you notice that your unit has deserted you and you are currently alone on the battlefield."
I also came up with availability ratings for combat support, like air strikes med-evacs and stuff like that in case the pc's wanna use them, using military etiquette and target modifiers for battletac weather and stuff. And no I'm not gonna post 'em 'cause there's too many army guys on here that'll tell me what's wrong with my numbers.
If you need to have the outcome of the battle determined by player actions instead of knowing in advance how they'll turn out, might I recommend borrowing a copy of Pendragon? IIRC from playing the start of the Boy King campaign they worked it so that the PC's actions on the battlefield helped determine the outcome of the battle overall. It's been a while, but I think each PC fought X opponents during each "Battle Round", and wins weighted the Battle (Pendragon's Tactics skill) roll for the next one.
thta's one of the problems with SR combat system: it requires to many dice rolls to be good for mass combat......
| QUOTE (Luca) |
| thta's one of the problems with SR combat system: it requires to many dice rolls to be good for mass combat...... |
Most RPG systems do. Hell, most tactical wargames do. Mass-combat is something that is better simulated on computers than on the whiteboard/battlemat.
I can only tell you what I have done, feel free to ignore.
I was the GM and the group stumbled into the biggest gang war ever. 6 different gangs and the Lone Star were on the way. How did I manage 200 NPC? I didnt. I had about 25 NPC characters and thought on my feet. I just started making things up, discribing the battle and vaguely, the people in it. When a PC went to attack an NPC, I grabed a NPC sheet at random and assigned it to whoever the PC attacked. When the NPC died, I be damned if there wasnt another guy in the battle just like him and just looked different.:wink,wink, nudge, nudge:
Add to all that some random bullets, spirits, and grenades and it works out OK. Don't sweat the small stuff and give the PC's the benifit of the dought. IMO, big battles need to be, for the most part, an ultra fun NPC slaughterfest.
player "what's my TN?"
GM " just roll"
player rolls
GM "you got him in the neck"
player "YAY!!!"
I was the GM and the group stumbled into the biggest gang war ever. 6 different gangs and the Lone Star were on the way. How did I manage 200 NPC? I didnt. I had about 25 NPC characters and thought on my feet. I just started making things up, discribing the battle and vaguely, the people in it. When a PC went to attack an NPC, I grabed a NPC sheet at random and assigned it to whoever the PC attacked. When the NPC died, I be damned if there wasnt another guy in the battle just like him and just looked different.:wink,wink, nudge, nudge:
Add to all that some random bullets, spirits, and grenades and it works out OK. Don't sweat the small stuff and give the PC's the benifit of the dought. IMO, big battles need to be, for the most part, an ultra fun NPC slaughterfest.
player "what's my TN?"
GM " just roll"
player rolls
GM "you got him in the neck"
player "YAY!!!"
Aye, once you exceed the point where its not reasonable to keep a stat blocck for each NPC individually, it gets REALLY tricky.
No advice here, just my pity for trying to do mass in SR.
No advice here, just my pity for trying to do mass in SR.
Damn.
Oh, well, these were my thoughts on running an accurate battle. In my case, I do want them to have a meaningful impact on the battle and not be the leaders of it - just plebs.
I was going to break the groups not directly combating the runners at the time into squads and have a squad initiative. The squad would make one roll when attacking another squad and damage done would be distributed with a little logic - if squad 'A' did moderate to squad 'B' most would take moderate, one or two weaker would take serious and the brass would take light. I'll get the boys to roll for the squads on their team though.
We had a big problem once with choregraphed encounters by another GM. Trying to avoid it again.
Cheers anyways guys and gals.
Oh, well, these were my thoughts on running an accurate battle. In my case, I do want them to have a meaningful impact on the battle and not be the leaders of it - just plebs.
I was going to break the groups not directly combating the runners at the time into squads and have a squad initiative. The squad would make one roll when attacking another squad and damage done would be distributed with a little logic - if squad 'A' did moderate to squad 'B' most would take moderate, one or two weaker would take serious and the brass would take light. I'll get the boys to roll for the squads on their team though.
We had a big problem once with choregraphed encounters by another GM. Trying to avoid it again.
Cheers anyways guys and gals.
Haven't had a mass battle yet - I can see it would be a nightmare.
One suggestion is to take a page from movies - take Saving Private Ryan for instance. The beginning of it doesn't focus truly on the entire battle, just the shattered remnants of a group of soldiers and what they do to take out a bunker.
Miniturize the battle into sections - determine what happens in each section and then have the mini-battle take place to see what the group does in their objective. Randomize the other objectives - the group may get cut off because of bad luck to their left and their right. Then you have a new objective - escape, or press on.
Etc.
In a battle, not everyone is firing at the characters - because the characters aren't the only ones attacking/defending.
That's a cinematic way of looking at things. Hope it helps.
One suggestion is to take a page from movies - take Saving Private Ryan for instance. The beginning of it doesn't focus truly on the entire battle, just the shattered remnants of a group of soldiers and what they do to take out a bunker.
Miniturize the battle into sections - determine what happens in each section and then have the mini-battle take place to see what the group does in their objective. Randomize the other objectives - the group may get cut off because of bad luck to their left and their right. Then you have a new objective - escape, or press on.
Etc.
In a battle, not everyone is firing at the characters - because the characters aren't the only ones attacking/defending.
That's a cinematic way of looking at things. Hope it helps.
Heh, maybe just code up a computer program to roll all the dices for you.
Sounds like you want a large scale battle simulator. Doesn't really fit in with SR that well so I'd suggest focusing on where the players are directly envolved and mold the other parts of the battle to fit your story and plot.
run the battle with groups of NPCs. Put 5-10 NPCs in a block, and give the block as a whole 2-4 dice to attack or soak with per member. As the the 10*(members present) levels of damage accumulate remove one memeber from the group, and then decrease the die pool of that group. This lets blocks of number represent groups of NPCs such a squad of infantry, the crew of a gun emplacement, and larger objects such as tanks can be handled individually. Write More Later, gotta run to class now.
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Just a Random Thought for the Day.
The Cinematic Mass Combat System
Battle is divided into 3 or more "Phases", plotted along a decision tree.
The following is an example:
Phase 1:
The attack is begun. A critical machinegun position is taken out by an enemy grenade and the PC's are ordered to man the position and prevent the enemy from securing it. (The PC's will get there and have to fight off a few waves of infantry who may be supported by drones or even a chopper).
If they successfully hold the position, advance to Phase 2.
If the enemy secures the position, advance to Phase 2B if still alive.
Phase 2:
After securing the machinegun position, the PC's are relieved by a fresh squad and ordered to assist armor in a push on the enemy command center. The attack will strike the enemy's weak middle, however troops there may be armed with anti-tank weapons. The PC's must ensure that the armor is able to overrun the middle.
If the armor makes it through, advance to Phase 3.
If the armor is taken out, advance to Phase 3B if still alive.
Phase 2B:
The enemy has secured the machinegun position. Word comes that there is armor advancing on the left flank. The PC's on the left flank! The PC's must prevent the armor from overrunning the left flank and advancing on their command center.
If they successfully stop the armor, advance to phase 3C.
If they are overrun, advance to Phase 3D if still alive.
Use as many phases as you want, but 3 will usually mushroom into enough possibilities for a fun and varied battle. Have Fun!
This keeps the battle "choreographed", so I'm sorry about that, but there are enough outcomes that the PC's will directly affect by their actions, that it still provides a good feel that the PC's helped decide the outcome of the battle. (Because they did)
Battle is divided into 3 or more "Phases", plotted along a decision tree.
The following is an example:
Phase 1:
The attack is begun. A critical machinegun position is taken out by an enemy grenade and the PC's are ordered to man the position and prevent the enemy from securing it. (The PC's will get there and have to fight off a few waves of infantry who may be supported by drones or even a chopper).
If they successfully hold the position, advance to Phase 2.
If the enemy secures the position, advance to Phase 2B if still alive.
Phase 2:
After securing the machinegun position, the PC's are relieved by a fresh squad and ordered to assist armor in a push on the enemy command center. The attack will strike the enemy's weak middle, however troops there may be armed with anti-tank weapons. The PC's must ensure that the armor is able to overrun the middle.
If the armor makes it through, advance to Phase 3.
If the armor is taken out, advance to Phase 3B if still alive.
Phase 2B:
The enemy has secured the machinegun position. Word comes that there is armor advancing on the left flank. The PC's on the left flank! The PC's must prevent the armor from overrunning the left flank and advancing on their command center.
If they successfully stop the armor, advance to phase 3C.
If they are overrun, advance to Phase 3D if still alive.
Use as many phases as you want, but 3 will usually mushroom into enough possibilities for a fun and varied battle. Have Fun!
This keeps the battle "choreographed", so I'm sorry about that, but there are enough outcomes that the PC's will directly affect by their actions, that it still provides a good feel that the PC's helped decide the outcome of the battle. (Because they did)
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